Nichole: While you two were out of town this weekend, I was going to go edit the podcast, but it was only Saturday.

Nichole: You guys weren't coming back until Sunday. And I was like, Oh, I can't, I'll miss them too much if I'm listening to their voices.

Nichole: So I waited until you were back in town to edit the podcast. So you just want to listen to it while we're actually here, when you could be listening to us actually speak. And then instead you just have a simulacrum of us.

Nichole: I mean, It's more soothing when I have control.

Nichole: You can just stop it.

Nichole: Yeah, I can just delete what you said.

Song: Talkin bout love and sex and power, All our polyamateur hour.

Daniel: Oh, I find it really soothing, like listening to our own podcast. Really? Yeah. I thought that I would be really bothered by all the uh, the weird mouth smacks that I make, and that's true too.

Daniel: But more often than not, I'm like, Oh, I feel real cozy. I'm like, I really like these people. They're so sweet.

Laurel: Aww. Aww. It's funny because, , when I used to do like filmmaking stuff, I hate watching my own films. It's really, it's very cringey and embarrassing, and I thought maybe this would be a similar feeling to it.

Laurel: After like a couple years, I could go back and watch a film that I made and be okay with it. But I don't have that same like, visceral cringe to QIAng our episodes. So that's nice, I guess,

Daniel: Well when you're watching a film that you've made you remember when we were talking the other week about how Any film that anybody makes is just like looking through their lens of neurodivergence.

Oh, yeah

Daniel: So you're just like in a feedback loop, right? Like you're Consuming your own neurodivergence through your neurodivergence

Laurel: Yeah, I guess this is like Yeah, it's still a conversation, not my whole point of view yeah, I

Nichole: think it's also not singular.

Laurel: Yes.

Nichole: Like we're recording this and it captures the dynamic that we have and we all genuinely enjoy spending time together. I really hope I'm not the, you're looking at me like I'm the only one.

Nichole: No. I know.

Laurel: I'm just excited to say what I'm going to say next, but I'm waiting patiently.

Nichole: I just, we all genuinely enjoy spending time together and it is nice that we have it recorded for posterity. Yeah,

Laurel: I was, shut up, it's my turn.

Daniel: That's right. I'm surprised I didn't get a nose smack.

Laurel: I was talking to my therapist about the podcast today.

Laurel: Like I've mentioned it before, but today I actually like talked about it in depth. And at the end of at the end of my little diatribe, he's like, he's like, you know, you really light up when you talk about your podcast. He's like, it's really nice to see. And I was like, Oh yeah, I really like it. He was also asking are we doing it because it's something like, we enjoy or are we hoping to like, make it big or whatever? And I was just like, oh, I think we all just like, really like talking about relationships and polyamory and we do it anyway. And we were figuring, like, why not just Just stick it on the internet.

Laurel: Yeah,

Daniel: and we're always hoping that you know We'll be discovered by a man in a bowtie who will walk up to us and go you kid You've got it. And then all of a sudden we're we're globally famous and there's a there's a there's a An expo, a poly, a global tour and a polyamateur expo.

Nichole: I'm

Laurel: okay. That sounds like a lot of work.

Laurel: I was just going to say he would, he would sugar daddy for us

Daniel: till the end of

Laurel: time.

Daniel: Yeah. I feel like we need that's, that's all of our listeners need to be our collective. Sugar. Parent. It doesn't sound, it doesn't sound nearly as, as hot when you say sugar parent, does it? I was trying to non gender it.

Nichole: It sounds like a gingerbread man.

Daniel: Welcome to polyamateur hour.

Laurel: I'm Nicole. I'm Laurel.

Daniel: I'm Daniel. And we are.

Nichole: You always fall in love with that. And we are.

Daniel: I'm just looking for the basic human contact of like a, a hand stack. What do you call those? Hand stack. What is it called? What is it called?

Nichole: That's a very good question. I don't know what it's called.

Nichole: Yeah, I don't know

Laurel: that it's called anything. It's just like hands in. And everybody puts their hands on top of each other. And it is a stack of hands.

Daniel: And then we go, AMATEUR POWER!

Nichole: Pew! Yeah.

Nichole: What's our first segment?

Daniel: I think this week it's Polly Mindfuck, and I'm bringing the fuck.

Song: It's like a game of telephone, with plenty of feedback. Invited three horses, got only one pizza. Ya balls on ya face, ya got self feedbacked. We're gettin the popcorn, and leanin our seat back. Can't blame ya partners, it sure wasn't Rhyme Lock. You are the author of this poly MINDFUL!

Daniel: I don't know. As per usual. I think this is my first Polly Mindfuck that I've volunteered. Oh, congratulations. I

Laurel: just

Daniel: usually sit back. You usually

Nichole: just let us stew in our shit. Eatin

Daniel: my popcorn.

Daniel: Like The song says. This is a Polly Mindfuck, which has its roots in our podcast itself. Usually our podcast is just a force for good in the world. But I feel like I said something a few weeks ago that was not quite true. I was just letting myself get carried away with the jam. So when we were talking early on, we were talking about how we came to polyamory, we settled on the idea, oh, we only really started practicing polyamory. As opposed to ethical non monogamy

or

Daniel: consensual non monogamy.

Daniel: A few years ago when I started seeing Laurel and that you were my inaugural partner and confetti, glitter, there was confetti and glitter, but I don't think that you were the first in that way for me.

Daniel: I was having loving relationships and partnerships that were with other people besides you, Nicole, several years ago.

Daniel: I was with a one of my comet partners, as I call them, somebody that I see once every few months, maybe. And I asked her if she had been listening to the podcast and she said yeah, yeah. I really like it. I learned a few things like that. Laurel was your first polyamorous partner outside of your relationship.

Daniel: Silence. And I was like, damn, that's not quite true, is it? Because we were like telling each other that we loved each other. We were spending a lot of time together. We were raw dogging it.

Laurel: That's, yeah, that deserves an oh god. Okay, continue.

Daniel: For a long time, for maybe a year, silence. Before our relationship shifted a little bit, me and this, this particular Stubert, our relationship had shifted a little bit.

Daniel: We started each other even a little bit less. And that in and of itself was maybe a year before I started seeing you, Laurel. So I just, , I erased a partner that was. A real partner, but was not a kitchen table partner.

Daniel: And I think what I figured out is that really you, Laurel, were my first kitchen table polyamorous partner outside of my marriage. We were, you know, always sitting together at an actual kitchen table.

Laurel: I do have four legs.

Daniel: Yes. Yeah. And you're always crawling around on the floor. You let us put our feet up on you like a piece of human furniture.

Daniel: So that's the way I would define it and it started me thinking about some other relationships that I had that were what I would call poly before this as well.

Nichole: This is my fault.

Daniel: Yes.

Nichole: Because I was the one that suggested that we didn't really start practicing polyamory until Laurel came along.

Daniel: No, you said that we didn't start practicing polyamory until two or three years ago.

Daniel: And then I was the one who was like, that's when Laurel came along. Cause I think it was really a, one of those hand stacks where you put your hand in the middle, but I slapped my hand right down on top of your hand. And then that was all for Laurel too, because we were like, it was like a moment to celebrate Laurel, which we're always looking for.

Laurel: And I was just so flattered that I didn't even think to question your fucking line.

Nichole: I probably should have questioned too, because I was there. I feel, I feel like I share a little piece of this mindfuck, because, given the relationship and where it is now is just different from where it was.

Nichole: A few years ago with this particular Stubert. And so I just wasn't, I did not register.

Daniel: And even then it was still way different than what I have with Laurel. Now like we were never seeing each other more often than maybe once every two weeks

Daniel: At the hottest.

Daniel: Sometimes Laurel, you just come over uh, in the middle of the night and just stand over me while I'm sleeping.

Laurel: That's the only way he can sleep. Yeah, I just yeah. I mean it reminds them that you text me and you say please come over and hover, hover over my bed. Don't worry, Nicole can sleep through anything.

Laurel: Ha ha ha ha ha

Nichole: Ha! He loves to tell people about how I can sleep through anything. Ha

Daniel: Yeah, I mean, you slept through my whole relationship with this Stubert. So, Stubert, if you're listening, if you're catching up in the podcast, love ya and peace. You have always been a partner of mine. You're just a comet, you just go way out there towards the edges of the galaxy, come back.

Daniel: I'm always happy to see you just like Haley's comet. Once every 70 years. And that's my Poly Mindfuck!

Laurel: Woo! Nice. That's a good one.

Laurel: Should we move on to our question? Yeah. Let's go to question time.

Song: If you got questions, don't demur, it's time to ask the amateurs.

Nichole: All right. So we have a question from a stubert who is a listener of the podcast and also not that versed, not experienced with polyamory at all. Okay. The stubert is a friend and I was. I simultaneously told him about the podcast and told him that I was in an open relationship with my husband.

Daniel: Did you witness the galaxy brain like in person?

Nichole: No, it was over text. Unfortunately this, this Stubert moved away and I haven't been able to see him in person um, for a while. And I dearly miss him. So he's A total sweetheart and listened to our podcast and apparently really enjoyed it and I really appreciate it.

Nichole: Thanks, Stubert.

Daniel: This is like what Stubert's always saying in that our podcast is for the normies.

Nichole: That's true.

Nichole: So Stubert sent me a question and his question is, do any of you ever fear your leading partner falling more in love with someone else and possibly leaving your current relationship?

Nichole: So a couple things to unpack

Daniel: One, I don't have a leading partner. I just have several rhythm partners and a bass partner.

Daniel: Ha ha ha

Nichole: ha Ha. Let's, Let's take that. Let's take the I think this is Normie Corner. Yeah,

Laurel: little

Nichole: Normie

Daniel: Corner interlude.

Song: I said when you got a question and you just don't know, you go to Nomekona, Nomekona. Define your basic terms so you can personally grow, you go to Nomekona, Nomekona.

Nichole: I think this is Normie Corner. Yeah,

Laurel: little

Nichole: Normie

Daniel: Corner interlude.

Nichole: By leading partner. I'm interpreting that as primary partner.

Daniel: And what is a primary partner?

Nichole: In hierarchical polyamory, primary partner is your primary partner.

Daniel: The words mean what they are.

Laurel: Well, Yeah, essentially like you, you have a partner that that they're going to come first and I've heard it put, I've heard it put as their wants will come before another partner's needs. Which was an interesting way of putting it. That is a very pretty harsh kind of.

Daniel: I feel like that's a particular perspective from some relationship anarchist toward hierarchical polyamory.

Daniel: Like they're like, you will let someone, you will let someone starve on the street just so you can go bang your primary.

Laurel: Yeah, I I, it does feel somewhat cynical, but I'm also trying to like, break it down a little bit, where I I do think that there is something implicit in saying that I have a primary partner like, this person automatically takes precedence over the other people that I date. In my life. And to what degree that's experienced depends on the relationship, probably, or what other kinds of like rules and stuff they have set up, but.

Daniel: And oftentimes, I feel a primary also exercises some control over the love life of their primary. Like when people are set up in hierarchical polyamory, there's usually some like ground rules, right? Where there's a maybe there's no overnights, maybe there's no, like the, any new relationships are processed through the filter and the boundaries of the existing relationship.

Nichole: Yeah. Potentially. I think that's one. That's one way it manifests.

Nichole: I think that, you, Daniel,

Nichole: legally, we are bound to each other. And so, legally, we do have to take care of each other. We also share finances, and we share a house, and we share dogs. And I would never put any rules on you dating anyone or try to put any boundaries on your relationship with Laurel or anybody else.

Nichole: But I do consider our relationship, maybe not primary, but like central, which might destabilize the hierarchy a little bit.

Daniel: I often use weird geometrical language when I start getting into these is like kind of concentric circles, like they're, and it really has to do with time it's like who is like, tightly in the orbit of my life, see? I went from comets to planets and moons. Alright, cool it, Sagan. I know that Sagan makes you hot, though. I know, yeah.

Nichole: Sagan makes me cry. Aw, I don't. Both. I just think he was such a sweet man. Yeah.

Daniel: It makes me hot when you cry.

Nichole: This is really cyclical.

Nichole: Anyways. Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah, I don't consider any of my relationships in terms of primary because it invites me to then think of other relationships as secondary.

Daniel: And that's not the case.

Daniel: To me, we have a very specific type of relationship. It's a marriage, and because it is a marriage, there are these domestic elements, dimensions to it, which are different than other relationships. But not for me, prioritized over other relationships.

Nichole: Yeah, I think that's why I went to Central.

Nichole: Because There are things that we have to, out of necessity, we have to take care of together and we do spend a lot of time together because we share a home together, but I also wouldn't necessarily consider any of my other relationships secondary, quote, unquote.

Nichole: It also kind of invites Comparison to me which I don't think is fair.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah,

Laurel: I think that's like an interesting thing because I see anecdotally in the dating sphere More people referring to primary. And I think some of that is a lack of us dog just being on the same nomenclature page and like, and yeah, having thoughts along the lines of what you're saying, Nicole of like, Oh, well I live with this person.

Laurel: I'm married to this person. I share some of these like fundamental life things with this person. So they're my primary.

Laurel: But I think deep in the polysphere, primary implies hierarchy.

Daniel: And that's one of the reasons that a lot of people use the term nesting partner. And. I think that Nicole is a special case because she hates the term nesting partner. I'm not sure what it is, but every time I say nesting partner, she simultaneously rolls her eyes and slumps her shoulders at the same time.

Nichole: Do

I?

Daniel: Yeah, it's like a, it's like a crazy yoga move. I don't even know how you do it. I think that you've shared you uh, for you, that sounds like roommates.

Nichole: You wanted to put me as nesting partner in your dating profile, and I think that gives the false impression that we're not married.

Daniel: Yes. And we want to warn people.

Nichole: That you're married. Other people coming into, relationship with you should know that you're married. Like that is something that you should disclose.

Daniel: Yes. Which is why I have a t shirt.

Nichole: I am married to my nasty, chesty bestie.

Laurel: But should we get back to the question now?

Laurel: Probably back to the question. Okay.

Nichole: All right. Do you ever fear your leading partner falling more in love with someone else and possibly leaving your current relationship?

Laurel: I've had the opposite fear for a long time.

Laurel: Like when I was monogamous and married, I was sometimes preoccupied with the idea that there was someone better for my husband out there, and he just couldn't get to them because I was in the way. Wow. And like, I was holding him back.

Daniel: So it was really altruistic? Like, You really just wanted to like, free him?

Daniel: Yeah,

Laurel: I was, like, worried about it.

Daniel: Wow.

Laurel: Which then like, after, you know, discovering polyamory and stuff, like that maybe it was a projection but yeah, I would, and I think one of the things that is actually reassuring about polyamory to me is that is one that I don't have to worry about that. But that I I get to see that my partners are actively choosing me.

Laurel: Regardless of who comes along, they'll make an active choice to stay with me. Not that I haven't been worried about. Yeah, like the time element of it. And I think I've been more concerned about it at times with partners who are very new to polyamory. And having that insecurity of like, Oh, well no, they're going to find someone and then they're both going to be like, yeah, we're monogamous and

Nichole: yeah, I think that's what the stubert is is alluding to is It's this idea that your partner would fall in love with this person and then want to leave you and be monogamous with this new person.

Daniel: And I think that's why it's so important to all of us even if we're dating people who are newer to polyamory, that we try to date only people who are committed. To polyamory, if we're going to invest any kind of emotional stakes in them, right? I always want to make sure that somebody is not on the poly until poly until partnered.

Daniel: Is that a term? , Who's just like, Oh, until I get in the right codependent, insular relationship. I'll just kind of bide my time. Like that sucks. I've had that happen. And, , I will not go

Laurel: back. I think, did you know up front? Cause I've definitely dated casually monogamous people who are like, yeah, let's hang out and have some fun or whatever, but I am looking for my one true love or whatever and I've done that and that's been fine

Laurel: Like they'll get to the point where they meet some and they're dating for them and they're like, okay, I think I'm getting to the point where like, you know, Like, we want to be exclusive, but I don't know what to do. And I'm like buddy, if you want to be monogamous, go do that with this person you like.

Laurel: Like we were always just uh,

Nichole: in

Laurel: the meantime thing. Uh, So I think that's funny.

Nichole: It's definitely a thing, there's the dating people who are committed to polyamory so that there's some fail safes and some shared language. And. An ability to have a conversation where you come to understanding.

Nichole: And then there is the kind of friends with benefits dating, right? Like they don't necessarily have to be versed in polyamory because that's not the kind of partner that they are. I think as far as exploring that fear what this says to me different from a conversation about jealousy. This is a future tripping conversation.

Nichole: This is taking yourself out of the present moment and deciding that down the line your partner is going to fall out of love with you because there is a finite amount of love and they don't have love enough for you and So they are going to leave you for another person. Yeah, who they will give all their love to.

Nichole: Yeah

Daniel: And so I think it's like worth noting again, there's no number of times that we can mention this, which is enough, but that jealousy is almost always something that has to do with, your own internal world and very seldom has anything to do with what the other person is doing,

Nichole: correct?

Daniel: and to me, I do like this question because it really gets to the heart of The fear that I feel like spurs jealousy in a lot of contexts and that's abandonment.

Mm

Daniel: The idea that you will be left that you are not enough and To me

Daniel: that's the kind of emotion that's very easy for me to locate within myself rather than project onto another person. I feel if I get to my jealousy at the stage of fear of abandonment, then I've caught it at a young enough sprout where it's not going to like flower into, Paranoia or anger or any of the other things which are these active and externalized uh, so, so I, when I feel that fear of abandonment I just do one of those Daniel things and I try and like sit in it for as long as possible.

Daniel: I just try and I just try and like fear bathe.

Daniel: What do they call it, like, forest bathing? Like, I bathe in the dark forest.

Of your shadows? Yeah.

Daniel: That I'll be, that I'll be left among, amongst the, uh, the trees and some, uh, you know, uh, David Lynch creamed corn. corner of the forest.

Daniel: Yuck. That one's just for the Twin Peaks fans out there.

Laurel: Yeah, I think actually that's funny. Cause I, I think that's why, like I, specifically experience that fear of abandonment or fear that my partner is going to leave me for someone else when I am insecure about their commitment to non monogamy.

Laurel: If I know that my partner is connected.

Laurel: To polyamory and I feel secure in myself or that relationship specifically Then I don't spend a lot of time thinking about

what if

Nichole: I think another part of this question, that the asker is getting to is This idea of destabilization with your quote unquote leading partner because I feel those kinds of fears partnerships that I have outside of Daniel.

Nichole: I, I think just because of the work that we've put into our relationship, Daniel, like I don't necessarily have those kinds of fears with you. I think also there's something to like showing your commitment and asking you to marry me, which. Wait showing your commitment and asking

Daniel: me, you don't even know who's here.

Nichole: Wait, whoa. Codependency alarm. You showed your commitment. To me by you asking me to marry you there we go I'm still shocked Two years later.

Daniel: To be fair that was like playing a verbal ping pong game with yourself.

Nichole: Yeah, I Was I think I was getting to a point? I think the question is alluding to this idea of that you will become destabilized if your primary or leading partner chose to leave you or what have you.

Nichole: But I feel those kinds of fears with my relationships outside of Daniel, which is who I consider like my central partner, right? The one I spend the most time with and share the more, most resources with. But I don't have I it could for me come from a place of There isn't a formal commitment

Daniel: we started a lot of our relationship by telling one another that in order for us to feel secure in the relationship, we needed to feel like we could exit the relationship. That was even before we really started having loving partnerships with other people.

Daniel: There was The kind of polyamorous model to our relationship that it was a Ongoing. Daily. Re commitment.

Nichole: That's true. We started having those conversations way early on.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: You're right.

Nichole: So I think, the question is like a yes or no question.

Nichole: Do any of you ever fear? Your leading partner falling more in love. So on and so forth. And I don't know, I have those fears, but I don't know that I have them with Daniel because we built our relationship on the foundation of it's a daily commitment and we are actively choosing each other every day.

Nichole: And I think that, I don't know about, I haven't been a part of your guys's relationship, but I assume it's somewhat akin to that.

Daniel: I think. I do get worried with you, Laurel, sometimes of the slow mo like, leaving, sometimes I'm like, Oh, is there going to be enough time for me?

Yeah.

Daniel: And I worry about just these practical time management. There can be something very enthralling about a new relationship and feeling some of that time getting taken up can be an experience, like it can trigger some shit sometimes.

Daniel: At least it has in me. Not as much necessarily as the anticipation of the possibility of it. But also, yeah, I'm really also not worried that either of you are going to leave me. Unless you brought this question up. Because I

Laurel: didn't know how to

Nichole: broach it.

Nichole: I'm leaving you for stupor.

Laurel: I don't have a primary Or leading partner but I have definitely worried about those kinds of things, but I think that I, I can acknowledge with myself that, that fear is like, it's not based in reality, and it's a catastrophizing thing for when I want to stew in my own shit sometimes.

Laurel: I've become practiced in being able to, focus on What's actually bothering me, which makes it easier to then talk to my partner about it, or get the kind of reassurance that's actually gonna help me, rather than like, you're never gonna leave me, are you?

Laurel: And they're like, no, of course I would never, because that's also kind of bullshit. Maybe they will. But also like, you two are saying making a perpetual daily commitment, , that is important that Yeah, my partners feel safe to like move on and do what is good for them and feel like they can be honest about it.

Laurel: Rather than trying to make them make like outlandish promises that nobody can necessarily predict or like keep.

Daniel: All in the interest of like soothing a fear soothed.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you're not yet looking at what. What your root issue is.

Nichole: I think that's part of the thing that brings you back to the present.

Laurel: Yeah, right because

Nichole: this is a Future tripping deal, right? You're anticipating a future that may or may not happen And so to bring you back to the present it is looking at where this is coming from Typically it is investigating your own insecurities And then following your self soothing techniques and what helps you process and work through your feelings.

Nichole: Cause there are, I don't want to invalidate feelings.

Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah. Like some of them could be valid, but it is important to bring yourself back to the present moment.

Laurel: Yeah, to be fair, there is like the flip side of it, where like, maybe you are dating somebody who is emotionally distant from you, and they're not great for you, and for whatever reason, you have some anxious attachment to them, and maybe they will go fucking find somebody and leave you.

Daniel: Yeah, and you need to be okay with that in order to have a positive relationship with that person or anyone else.

Laurel: Yeah,

Daniel: Having an unlocked exit door is Fundamental I think to any healthy relationship monogamous or non monogamous.

Laurel: Yes, That sounds like a scary idea.

Laurel: I don't think people want to, especially in our like modern conception of romance it sounds almost akin to like having an exit strategy, which does sound like really cynical um, but it's much more like, it's like that exit strategy really is having the self fortitude and confidence.

Laurel: To do what is right by you and enough differentiation from the people in your life to know that like, you can be okay without them.

Daniel: That's some, that's a kind of work that, I think is ongoing for everybody, right? Oh, yeah. I saw you do some processing like, on the, using my psychotherapeutic terms, I've been brainwashed by my mother.

Laurel: I just imagine like, like, I was sitting on the Just on the ledge on a street corner and you passed by and you're like, oh, she's processing You saw me doing some

Daniel: processing? I saw you doing some processing You had a relationship Where you felt like someone wasn't giving enough and In that moment you were at first Worried that they, might not really want to be in the relationship. You then zeroed in on what in retrospect was the real issue was that you felt like there was an imbalance and you discussed it with your partner and you moved through it and found a better balance of both of you feeling like you were contributing the same amount of like, Energy, planning, practicality to the relationship.

Laurel: Yeah, I think it's, easier for me often to like, yeah sometimes just recalibrate my expectation or recalibrate what I think I need from the relationship rather than necessarily demanding. More. Which is not to say that that is for everybody. Like sometimes yeah, you just have a baseline.

Laurel: This is what I need for a relationship period, and you meet me there or you don't. But some there is oftentimes like flexibility for me there.

Daniel: Do you do the same thing Nicole, like in, in uh, an extreme? Where you recalibrate to zero, if you think that the relationship is not going to move forward.

Nichole: I know I have a tendency to do that. I think that there might be a part two to this question or some drilling down that we want to do. In another episode when it comes to dating relationship anarchists, because I think it's a special situation where you, Daniel are in relationship with Laurel who identifies as a relationship anarchist.

Nichole: I am dating somebody who identifies as like solo Polly. And, There are specific sets of fears that come with that, which is the opposite of this fear of your leading partner, your primary partner leaving you. And I think we could do a whole normie corner on relationship anarchy,

Daniel: this is like all Normie Corners from here on out. It's like a cathedral. It's so, all the apses.

Laurel: Yeah, one day we'll do a Normie Corner about what is Normie Corner and it'll just become super meta. And then the podcast will be on the podcast. We'll be on the podcast.

Ah, crazy.

Daniel: The soundboard is already kind of that. We should have like the soundboard on the soundboard.

Nichole: I can't. I can't. It is a quarter to seven, and I'm, I don't understand what you're saying.

Daniel: It's a quarter to seven. Nicole has to put a whole collection of things on her face and body. Oh,

Nichole: come on.

Nichole: You make it sound like I'm so high maintenance.

Daniel: So should we move on to the next category?

Nichole: Yeah. Yeah.

Laurel: Hey.

Song: Is this Polly or not?

Daniel: So today on is this Polly, we're going to be asking that question of one of our favorite movies of the last year, two years, what is time? Poor things. Poor It is kind of a, you know, fun question.

Daniel: Phantasmavictorian, Phantasmavictoriana type of story. So I think that my my pouty pronunciation of poor is correct. Poor. Poor. So this is a movie by Yorgos Lanthimos. From 2023. He also did The Lobster and a lot of other movies where people are walking around saying things in completely flat tones.

Daniel: It takes place in um, late Victorian London, but it's like a kind of a fevered steampunk fantasy of Victorian London. And it starts from the point of view of this medical student who is, recruited by Willem Dafoe, what's his name?

Laurel: Max?

Daniel: Max. Yeah, Max. So yeah, he's supposed to monitor this experiment child woman who was a woman who died and then had the brain of her Unborn infant child transplanted into her own skull.

Daniel: And so it was basically like a full grown woman who uh, behaves like a child.

Clip: Bella, this is Mr. McCandles. Hello, Bella.

Clip: Oh! Ah. Bud. Blood. Bud. Blood. Blood. Yes. I'm fine. I'm fine.

Clip: What a very pretty retard. She suffered a brain injury. I repaired it. Her mental age and her body are not quite synchronized. Language is coming. She's progressing at an accelerated pace. She's I need to meticulously note her progression. You will do this for me. It would be my honor. Oui!

Laurel: There is like a movie trope about this. Uh, born yesterday.

Daniel: Born sexy yesterday.

Laurel: Yeah. Born sexy yesterday. This is like putting that literally like into the film.

Daniel: But it's interesting. Cause I feel like the difference. is that this completely centers it in the experience of the yesterday born sexy person.

Laurel: Oh yes,

Laurel: yeah. I don't think that, yeah, I wouldn't apply that criticism to this character specifically.

Nichole: Rather than the born sexy yesterday person's experience being viewed through the lens of someone else?

Daniel: Yeah, like the, uh, Like Leeloo multi

Laurel: pass.

Laurel: Uh, the fifth element, she's very born sexy yesterday.

Nichole: That is so, that's what Emma Stone's performance reminded me of. Oh, yeah. Right? Yeah. Down to the physicality of like learning to walk and being either Amazed or scared of everything happening around her. Goddamn, Laurel. That's good.

Daniel: So I feel like this movie is like the premise is what if you took The born sexy yesterday trope and then you uh, took it absolutely seriously as like a journey of self discovery and growth. The med student falls in love with her. Willem Dafoe wants them to get married.

Daniel: At a certain point and everybody's going to live creepily ever after it seems until she discovers masturbation and sex and Mark Ruffalo

Laurel: all ends when we discover Mark Ruffalo. Yeah, it was the opposite order for me. And, And Mark Ruffalo's character

Laurel: I love it because he's sort of like, one of those fuckboys that is like, but I'm a feminist. He's like, I'm a feminist fuckboy because he kind of approaches her from this angle of like, like, don't you see what's happening here? Like your father's manipulating you to like, Like live this cloistered life with this guy.

Laurel: Why don't you come out and explore the world with me and liberate yourself?

Clip: You watched me long? Not long. You did not see me working on myself to get happiness, did you? It is not polite, I know. Not care for polite society. It's fucking boring. You're a prisoner, and I aim to free you. Something in you, some hungry being, hungry for experience, freedom, touch, to see the unknown and know it. So why am I here, you ask? I'm going to Lisbon on Friday, I'd like you to come. Lisbon of Portugal? That is Lisbon I speak of. God never allow it. That's why I'm not asking him.

Clip: I'm asking you. Well, I'm not safe with you, I think. You are absolutely not. Ha ha ha. Ha ha

Daniel: yeah, so she's going from basically one really captive environment as hunchback Willem Dafoe's experiment daughter into at first The promise of another captive environment where she's going to be married off to this med student, but in fact she follows Sexy fuck boy feminist mark ruffalo Off into the world and enters into another kind of captive Situation because you know initially they just fuck all the time they go from they go from port to port, cruise ship to cruise ship, but she really soon discovers that he's control, trying to control her just as much as her father was.

Laurel: And then it's also, I think, simultaneously discovering the, the richness and the sadness of the world around her. Like, She is very much coming of age.

Daniel: And this The movie is beautiful in the way it portrays the world through her gaze. It is the kind of movie that slows down enough to really make you feel like you are seeing magical Victorian England for the first time. She has her, she has a sugar binge, she discovers dancing, she confronts the misery of poverty and pain.

Clip: Bella, where were you? You disappeared. I did not. Nobody can just disappear. What? Can they? Disappear? No, of course not. What the fuck are you talking about? Where were you? I wanted a tart, and then an adventure befell me. I did not know how to return, and then I heard it. The tram.

Clip: I will walk to the noise. The noise. And I found it. Amazement to Bella. Explorer blood's in me. Bella, it's dangerous to go out without me. I have adventured it and found nothing but sugar and violence. It is most charming. I am fine. Now, I must lie down, and you must lie down on top of me and do more furious jumping.

Daniel: Eventually she leaves her fuckboy Ruffalo, ends up in a brothel where she also just then discovers like this completely other side of sex, this capitalist side of sex where it's just completely, transactional.

Nichole: She tries at one point to convince the madam to let the women choose the Johns that come in.

Nichole: Her argument being, don't you think they would enjoy it more if they thought they were wanted? Aww! Yeah! And the madam's basically like, that's not how this works.

Nichole: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Daniel: ha Ha! And she also develops a relationship with one of the other sex workers in the brothel.

Daniel: And maybe that for the first time is like the first egalitarian relationship that she actually has.

Daniel: Yeah. Where she's free and interacting with this person on an equal footing.

Laurel: Yeah. And she's not trying to keep, she's not trying to keep Emma Stone.

Daniel: I like that we're just referring to all of these actors.

Laurel: Yeah, I don't remember anybody's name. I don't either. Except Max.

Nichole: Because we don't know the actor's name. Yeah, I don't! He was great. He was great.

Daniel: Or the sex worker who we should name Right now by scrolling down in the Wikipedia to the place where it's listed, but I already know it.

Daniel: Toynet.

Nichole: Spell that.

Daniel: Toy.

Nichole: Net.

No, that's not how spelling works.

Laurel: Is this the character or the actress?

Daniel: T O I N E T T E

Twonet.

Daniel: , so now she's called back home to care for the Willem Dafoe, who is now terminally ill. The Willem Dafoe. He demands that you call him that. Yeah. Melinda Faux is one of the only celebrities that I just saw randomly when I lived in New York. Oh, really? Huh. That's the only one? Yes. Granted, maybe I'm just not paying that much attention, but a Willem Dafoe face passes by you where you're like, oh, that's processing some shit.

Nichole: He was on a street corner and just sitting on the, on the ledge, kicking his feet.

Daniel: I think it was a liquor store.

You heard it here first, folks. Willem Dafoe may or may not have visited a liquor store in New York.

Daniel: In the early aughts.

Stars,

Nichole: they're just like us.

Daniel: No, it was definitely Willem Dafoe. You recognize him because his face looks like one of those rubber finger puppets.

Nichole: We're not doubting you. We believe that you saw Willem Dafoe in a liquor store.

Daniel: Willem Dafoe was real.

Daniel: So she's then about to marry the med student again,

Laurel: she's going to marry Max.

Daniel: She's gonna marry

Laurel: Max. But then her husband shows up. Yeah. And her husband is from her past, her literal past life, when she was a woman with not a baby brain, and jumped off of a bridge.

Daniel: Yes, and she's so curious about her past life that she decides, Oh, okay. I'm going to go see what this was all about.

Daniel: I'm going to go hang out with my husband, who is also her father.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because of the baby brain.

Daniel: Because of the baby brain.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: And then discovers that he is, of all these captors in her life, the scariest, most sadistic person. most misogynistic.

Clip: I suggest we stick close to the house for several months, maybe a year.

Clip: Until you've made a full recovery. I will leave at my leisure, but I am flattered by your desire to trap me. You are not the first. I will have to shoot you in the fucking head if you try to leave, darling. The front or the back of the head? The back. As to be sure you were leaving and I was not being rash.

Laurel: He's a cruel man.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: And she realizes why she killed herself and her unborn baby fetus.

Daniel: And he, and a little bit too on the nose. He wants to cut off her clitoris.

Laurel: Oh yeah. I forgot about that. How could I forget about that?

Nichole: So she discovers his plan and he tries to drug her with a drink in order to get her to pass out. So the doctor can come perform this horrific thing. And she throws the drink in his face and he ends up consuming the chloroform. And he passes out. And then

Daniel: I like how we're passing this around like it's a seder.

Nichole: Well, You complained about doing the whole thing, so We're trying to help.

Daniel: And then he passes out, I think she drags him home and then they transplant his brain with the brain of a goat. Correct. And this sets up the only really, truly. poly part of the movie, which is the last, you know, five minutes. Well,

Laurel: Jury's out, but this is the part that we're asking, is this poly?

Daniel: So the movie ends with Emma Stone, Max, Twanette, and Goat Boy all living in a house together happily ever after.

Daniel: And to me, this was very clearly a polyamorous setup, minus the goat.

Laurel: Yeah, the goat is just retribution.

Daniel: Yes. And because it didn't like actually take up that much time in the movie and it's never explicitly addressed, I think it's easy to gloss over.

Daniel: But for me it was, it really made a big impact because I feel like it was the happily ever after of the movie. And as we started looking at this movie to discuss it, it really occurred to me that all of the other tribulations that she has to pass through are all these situations of men trying to limit or control her.

Daniel: In various ways.

Yeah.

Daniel: And so the end of this movie where they decided to kind of leave it and free her and free everyone who she was um, connected with and who loved her

Daniel: I thought it was a really powerful uh, denouement I'm making up for being completely unable to pronounce Twanette.

Nichole: What did you just call me? She does end up with the two partners who didn't try to control her.

Daniel: Exactly.

Nichole: Twanette and her were on equal footing in that they both had the same job. And they met at work and the only, I would say superiority that Twanette offered was guiding. Emma Stone along with, what is sex work, right?

Nichole: Yeah. And Max. When she comes back to take care of Willem Dafoe, they're on a walk and he's like, I'd quite like to marry you. And she's like, yeah, that sounds fun. And then they kiss and she gives him instruction on how to kiss her. Like, Like she takes a little bit of the initiative there, she's giving direction. Yeah. And these are the two relationships that didn't try to confine her or control her. And it is very ambiguous whether or not she ever ended up getting married to Max. Like what Twanette is doing there. It is very open ended, which I appreciated.

Daniel: Yeah. We never saw the marriage.

Daniel: There was no Star Wars medal ceremony of uh, monogamous matrimony at the end of this film. There was just a a little bit of a polycule, a little bit of a goat brained revenge fantasy.

Nichole: And she's studying to pass her medical exams because she is becoming a doctor. That's what she, what, that's what they're doing in the garden , they're helping, like her two ostensibly partners are helping her study to become a doctor.

Clip: Anatomy exam is making me nervous. I've tested you many times. You know it. No one knows anatomy better than you, crois moi. Certainement, effectivement. Ladies, gin. Please. Gin.

Nichole: So supporting her in a way that none of her other partners did.

Daniel: Yeah, and just doing kind of practical, garden party poly activities.

Laurel: Garden party poly.

Daniel: Could we replace kitchen table with garden party poly?

Nichole: Garden party poly is a thing.

Nichole: It's a type of poly. What?

Daniel: What?

Nichole: What? What? What? Do you guys not read polyamory reddit?

Daniel: No. What are we even doing here? You'd think that we're just a bunch of amateurs.

Normie Corner for us,

Nichole: what is, What is Garden Party Polly? I want to find an actual definition, so I will come back. Okay. I will come back.

Daniel: So I'm gonna say yes.

Laurel: Yes, it's Polly.

Daniel: Yeah, I'm gonna say yes, it's Polly. I think that , given the short amount of time that the movie spends on the Polly Emmer situation, You could be tempted to say no, but I feel like a lot of the movie is leading up to it.

Daniel: I feel like it's central to her journey. So I think that they teed it up and they swung and they hit the ball. They

Laurel: hit that ball.

Laurel: But yeah, I love poor things. I very much identified with this sort of. I think it's like a really imaginative, interesting way to tell a coming of age story.

Laurel: And because that I will happily project my polyamory onto the end of it.

Nichole: I'm also going to say yes. I didn't really. Invest in the Polly moments until watching it through a second time with that lens, right? Like I was just along for the ride the first time we also saw it in the theater, which was really special because it was so visually stunning and it was amazing to just sit in a dark theater with a bunch of people and experience this movie with them and going through it a second time, knowing where she ends up.

Nichole: It. It's an incredibly stark contrast from the journey before. Yeah. So I'm going to say yes, because I want to believe that that's what happened.

Daniel: And I want to pursue this theoretical garden party, poly lifestyle, especially if it involves Emma Stone and Twanette and Max. Max is cute. Max is cute.

Daniel: Yeah. Does he have the kind of hair that you like on me? I feel like he had springy hair,

Nichole: for the listener, when Daniel's hair is all must and crazy. I always say, Oh my God, that's so cute. And he came back from a massage.

Nichole: Before recording today and his hair was all must. And I said, Oh my God, that's so cute. But are you going to get mad at me for saying that it's cute? And Laurel from the other room said, he does that to you too.

Daniel: Hey, I don't think this is fair. I don't get mad at you guys. I just immediately get really self conscious and I immediately

fix your hair. You undo the

Laurel: hair. We're about to do this. Your hair looks cute. Yeah. And then you're like, you just flatten it out.

Nichole: We're

Laurel: giving you a compliment.

Daniel: You guys are just attracted to the like young Einstein look.

Daniel: I love a crazy genius.

I love a crazy Jew genius.

Daniel: You could just say, Daniel, you're a crazy Jew genius.

Nichole: I guess, But that has nothing to do with your hair. Yeah, but could you put the hair back?

Laurel: You're cute. Get over it. Deal with it, bitch.

This has been Polyamateur Hour, a production of Risa Records. If you have a question for Ask the Amateurs, or a recommendation for Is This Poly, please email us at polyamateurhour at gmail dot com. If you enjoyed the show, and you know you did, you perv, please subscribe to us on your podcatcher of choice, leave us a five star review, and most importantly, tell at least one person in your life to check us out.

But we hope you tell three. Remember, the advice given by the amateurs should not be followed. Unless you are prepared to be ecstatically happy, successful, and strange. Until next time!