Laurel: Were you going to say something else before I change subjects again?

Daniel: No, I was just still thinking about the rap album that you want to put out and how we're going to ever convince Nicole to do it, or at least a single like rap posse cut where, each one of us has a verse. It's not going to happen.

Laurel: Well, Nicole can be like the Enya interlude.

Nichole: I'll be the Dido to your 7M. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Yeah, you know what's great about that? Is that song already existed. And Dido didn't have to do shit.

Song: Talkin bout love and sex and power, All our polyamateur hour.

Nichole: So just, you know, we have hours and hours of recording. Just auto tune my voice to whatever you guys want.

Laurel: And that will

Nichole: be.

Laurel: But I really want to do a music video. So I'm like imagining you just like. aI has come a long way.

Laurel: So,

Daniel: Oh my God, robot, Nicole, terrifying. I

Nichole: My mom calls. Chat. GBT Chat. I asked Che the other day, about . It's like Chet, I was touching Chet .

Daniel: I just imagined it like with the personality of Chet Baker. Just like, uh, you know, heroin addicted trumpet player with no teeth.

Nichole: No, it's Chet from .

Daniel: Jesus from, what's it called? You have your Chet, I have mine.

Nichole: The Coen Brothers movie with the hotel that catches on fire.

Laurel: No, um

Nichole: Barton Fink. Yeah, there we go.

Daniel: Oh, Barton Fink is like the best Coen Brothers movie.

Nichole: That's where Chet comes from.

Daniel: That's where Chet comes from. That is the origin of Chet.

Daniel: That's what our rap song is going to be called and it's going to be like a kind of a remix update of The Origin of Love from Hedwig and the Angry Inch. It's going to be called The Origin of Chet and it's about our A. I. Nicole.

Nichole: There's so many layers to this.

Nichole: There's

Laurel: so many. So this is a real deep cut. This is what you get on like our top tier Patreon level because you're so invested in our bullshit

Laurel: that you get all of the like deep, deep cut joke.

Nichole: I don't even want it.

Daniel: I mean, A lot of them aren't really deep cuts. They're just like, like the rapidity of the ADHD topic change.

Daniel: I guess so.

Nichole: Welcome to Polyamateur Hour.

Daniel: That was a sensual one. I'm Daniel. I'm Laurel.

Nichole: I'm Nicole.

Daniel: Break it up. No more of that bullshit.

Laurel: Fine. I have a bone to pick, and that's the name of this segment. I've got a bone to pick. Oh yeah? You just improvising? I'm just improvising the segment right now.

Daniel: Jesus

Laurel: Christ, Laurel. I have to write a song for it. This is how I keep you busy. This is actually a diabolical plot in which I don't allow you to date anymore because you're so busy writing segment songs for the podcast that you have no time for new romance.

Daniel: I had multiple partners. Until I had songs. Until I had jingles. Until I had my Polly jingles.

Laurel: You like your Polly jingles.

Song: This bone,

Song: well, it's broke and this bone

Song: I gotta pick with you.

Song: I don't need you to say, I just need you to fix this shit you.



Daniel: All right, do you have a serious bone?

Laurel: Oh, I do have a serious bone to pick. So at the New Year's Halloween party,

What?

Laurel: Somebody. Or Halloween. New Year's. Hanukkah. They're both H words that I take very seriously.

Laurel: We did

Nichole: have another two-in-one party for Halloween.

Laurel: We can't

Daniel: have a, like a shmush them together. Yeah.

Laurel: Um, Anyways, somebody at the new year's Hanukkah party called me your third.

Nichole: No,

Laurel: I'm genuinely, I'm like, excuse me? That was my reaction when they said it. And I'm trying to remember who it was, but I think it was like someone who was like like a new friend,

Daniel: now an old friend, as in, no longer.

Laurel: Like more yeah, like budding friendship acquaintance kind of thing.

Daniel: Somebody who, if there was, like, a number hierarchy, would like, not even be in the, not even be in the double digits. I don't

Laurel: want to, I'm not, Really, I just wanted to do a public takedown of this person.

Daniel: Hopefully they're not a stubert.

Laurel: I don't know. I have no idea.

Daniel: Now, you were on mushrooms. Were they real?

Laurel: I'm pretty sure because, okay, I'll have to, I'm pretty sure Derek was standing there with me.

Nichole: Okay, maybe he can verify that they didn't just say, Hey, aren't you Daniel's nerd?



Nichole: And how did that make you feel?

Laurel: I felt initially just like comically upset like I did the um, What? What did you just call mE? That was mostly it. I just I thought it was really funny because it is You Like, your parties are a place where like, worlds converge.

Laurel: Correct. And there are plenty of people in the normie sphere and in the poly sphere and other various subsets, or where the zen diagram intersects of the poly not so normie sphere.

Laurel: I feel like I, I often live pretty deeply in the polyqueer o sphere. In my day to day, usually. Yeah. And it's pretty much only when I'm like, out with family of partners and stuff that I'm really like, pulled out of it. So it was interesting in my partner's and his wife's home to be like confronted with something that was so like, like I was also realizing oh, how faux pas of you like you just made a mistake in my world.

Laurel: Did you call them out? I did the sort of over the top joke reaction of like, what did you just call me? What are you talking about? No, that's not how this works thing. But we didn't like go in depth in it. And I don't think it necessitated it. But

Nichole: yeah it, it feels like a genuine mistake because also in any context, how would you be considered the third?

Daniel: You're always, your own number one.

Nichole: But, but wouldn't you be?

Laurel: Well, I think it was like, yes, a genuine misunderstanding of, one, what we're doing, and like, polyamory in general. Yeah. Of like, , oh, I've only seen this in the context of, bits and pieces of media in which this is always presented as a couple seeking a third.

Laurel: I've only

Daniel: listened to this completely chaotic shit show podcast, which never actually defines anything in coherent terms.

Laurel: We've done it to ourselves. No.

Laurel: Oh,

Nichole: what a. Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah. It was definitely like, an honest.

Nichole: Honest mistake. Yeah, it was

Laurel: definitely an honest mistake. And it's like, um, trying to think of, like, an equivalent to what you'd, like, , accidentally say to a gay person, but, like, totally put in your, like, putting your foot in your mouth kind of thing.

Laurel: Like. Oh, it's the, like, who's on bottom. Or like, oh, , you're their fag.

Nichole: I mean, I was going to say more like, who, who wears the pants, right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. The wife. Exactly. Yeah. Something that maybe a not necessarily like well meaning person would say, but somebody who's like, just not around queer people that often, or only sees like, media representations from 1992 and

Laurel: before.

Daniel: Oh my god, is there not a slur for poly people?

Laurel: I think it is poly.

Daniel: I

Laurel: think so too. All

right, all right.

Nichole: And I, I don't know that. There are folks out there who actively hate poly people. I think they're just annoyed with us.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah. They're like the vegans of the relationship

Daniel: sphere. . Put a pin. Put a pin in the, there's no one who hates poly people because we're going to talk about that in a segment today.

Laurel: Oh yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: Okay.

Daniel: Yeah? Yeah. Pin. Pin! I'm gonna make a little pin drop sound effect.

Laurel: Ting! You're welcome,

Nichole: I think that's a good segment. Bone to pick.

Laurel: Yeah, I'm a creative genius.

Laurel: I like the idea of a bone to pick. I don't know. You picked my bone. Oh, God.

Daniel: All right. On to Ask the Amateurs.

If you got questions, don't demur, it's time to ask the amateurs.

Laurel: Which one are we doing? I want to do the time sensitive one. Will already be too late, but.

Yeah.

Daniel: This is one of my favorite ways to find a stubert because this was a listener who saw my plug on my field profile nice And we even started flirting and sexting a little bit and then never actually met because my life is a complete shit show And I

Laurel: surprising

Daniel: Are you

Laurel: too

Daniel: busy making jingles?

Daniel: I am too busy making jingles. Thanks, Laurel.

Laurel: Now I actually feel bad.

Daniel: Thanks. I'm sorry. And then she became just one of our like number one fans. And she was like, I don't care if we never meet. I love polyamateur hour. I am stubert. And I was like, I love you. This is my favorite relationship that I've ever had.

Daniel: Can we just, No pressure and you just adore my art. Let's keep it like this. I don't want to fuck it up. We should all be so lucky. On to the question.

Daniel: Hola, polyamateurs. I'd love to know your next move in my situation. I am seven or eight weeks into a new non monogamous play partner type relationship. We met through field. Whoop! Had STARS talk, which stands for something that Laurel googled.

Laurel: Oh yeah, I have it right here.

Laurel: Safety. Troubadours. Turn ons. Abercrombie. Avoids. Radios. Relationship intentions and expectations. Star Trek. Star Trek. Sexual health and STI status. You're close on most of those.

Daniel: Had the stars talk, interests aligned, and we've since met up five or six times almost weekly at a private residence. I don't know why that sounds so dirty.

Daniel: At a private residence? Yeah, it's much dirtier than like one of our homes.

Yeah.

Daniel: At a private residence for the purpose of physical and sexual intimacy. Mmm. Naturally, we've been getting to know one another. Last week, we acknowledged to each other that the scope of the relationship we are in is working for us both right now.

Daniel: And it's been really enjoyable, sexy, and effortless. He is not experienced in ENM, but I have six plus years under my belt. It's been rad! Yeah. We have shared and discussed very explicit boundaries,

Daniel: however, I'm unsure what my boundary slash needs might be in this situation, colon. The situation isn't a colon, I'm just, uh. Sketching out the, uh, punctuation. Oh, okay. She's

Laurel: not like, magic school bust into a colon. No. Okay. Magic

Daniel: school bust. Oh. I thought, I thought for a minute it was something, it was something like the, uh, the human centipede.

Daniel: Like a magic school bust.

Nichole: No. Oh no. No, it's a firmly millennial reference. Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: That I do not get. Oh yeah, you misread it. That just frizzled your way right in there.

Daniel: Is that another euphemism for a sex act?

Laurel: It is now.

Daniel: We had plans for a snuggle date tonight. This is why this is

Nichole: Time sensitive. Time sensitive.

Daniel: We have missed it. We have missed our window. This is all theoretical at this point. We had plans for a snuggle date tonight. When I heard from him that he might not make it, he shared that unexpectedly. One, his mom was still in town because of a flight cancellation.

Daniel: Two, she just got an updated ticket to leave at 5am, making this her last night in town. And they are close and get along. Fuckin happy families. That was me not stupid. I said we could raincheck. And he should absolutely spend time with his mom. And he responded by inviting me to join them for dinner at his house.

Daniel: He prefaced by saying he hopes it isn't weird, and I don't think it has to be, but, and, also, all caps, I acknowledge that I come from the land where meeting the parents is a signal of growing intimacy. Curious. Do you go? Do you decline? Do you ask certain questions or clarify signals first? Do you fuck around and just find out?

Daniel: Does a polyamateur meet the parent?

Laurel: Can we treat it like a choose your own adventure story where you say what you would do and then play out the scene that happens after you make your choice

Laurel: For some reason, while you were reading that I just started imagining like a horror movie pretty much, where they're just like some sinister demons or like vampires or whatever, and this is all just oh God, a ploy where they just get some like innocent woman to come in and then they cannibalize her or something.

Laurel: God , this is a

Daniel: normal thing to think of, so she's not. The mother, she just happens to like be really old because she's undead.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: I just thought your answer would be fuck around and find out.

Daniel: When I saw that as one of the multiple choices, I was like Laurel will fuck around and find out. Definitely. First, a polyamateur meets the parents but it sounds like the relationship so far has only been in pretty, like specifically a sexual context.

Daniel: I would probably not fuck around nor find out in this situation.

Laurel: But why?

Daniel: I would be afraid that when I was introduced, To the elder vampire. Uh Huh.

Uh Huh.

Daniel: Uh Huh. The sire. The sire. That my stubert would say, Ah, and uh, this is the stubert who I've been fucking in private residence.

Nichole: I think that's why prior to fucking around and finding out, There needs to be some conversation.

Nichole: What does the mom know? Does the mom know that her child is ethically non monogamous or identifies that way?

Laurel: Absolute sexual degenerate.

Nichole: Like, , what has the son shared?

Daniel: Yeah Is the mother going to be seeing our stubert? As a partner, as somebody that he's dating, as a sexual dalliance. Some people have very honest relationships with, with their mother.

Daniel: Hi mom. Um, or, am I just going to be introduced as prey?

Laurel: This is dinner. Hello, mother. This is dinner. Um,

Laurel: I'm realizing while you two are saying this that part of my Excitement about fucking around and finding out would be that moment where I get introduced and I'm like, what are they gonna say? What's it gonna be? And almost inevitably it is always my friend

Laurel: Which is funny.

Nichole: Being introduced as a friend by somebody that I'm fucking feels You don't like that.

Nichole: I do not like that, no. Because I, I I agree, like we're friendly. It depends on, It depends on the relationship, right? If there's somebody that I met in a fucking context, right? We don't know each other's like intimate lives. We're not enmeshed at all.

Nichole: Friend is fine.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: That actually makes sense to me.

Nichole: Personally, I probably wouldn't put a qualifier on anything. Yeah. If I ran into somebody on the street and I was with somebody, I'd be like, this is Nicole. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But this specific situation again, would need some kind of context as far as what the parent knows but I want to validate like, Oh, this does feel like a big step.

Nichole: Meeting the parents is just a thing that happens and is a natural progression of the serious relationships that you're in, meeting a fuck buddy's parents, I don't know that I would ever be in a context where that would happen.

Daniel: And maybe they want to escalate the relationship, but I'm not sure that meeting the parent would be my number one go to escalation move.

Laurel: Totally. Yeah. It's really funny because I do, I definitely acknowledge that for most people meeting the parents is an escalation thing. And is like an important step in showing that I trust you and feel some commitment to you.

Laurel: And so I do get I get excited about meeting people's parents whom I know that is a symbol for them to like, share their family with me or me with their family. But also like, my mom used to live here, in Portland pretty close by, and there was plenty of instances where she was, like, stopping by. She'd be like, Oh, I need to stop by and like drop this thing off . And I was just like, okay, like someone who I've been dating for a month is here and you guys are just going to end up meeting each other or whatever. And like that, like for me, it's not like an escalation. Like I'm never like, I don't know if part of that is because I'm not super worried what my family thinks of me.

Laurel: Like, I'm not worried about their judgment and I'm also not worried about my partner's judgment of my family,

Daniel: lucky you.

Laurel: Lucky me. Sucks to suck for the rest of you.

Nichole: I think that's the other piece though, is, what does it mean to the stupid's partner, right? Yeah. Is it out of convenience of, oh, my mom's gonna be in town, but I really wanna see you.

Nichole: I mean, is the mom going to go away at some point and is there going to be cuddling or whatever later?

Daniel: Yeah, that'd be weird if it's like, have dinner with my mom, and then when she goes to bed

Nichole: If she's staying in the house, yeah like, I don't know what the plan is, but I'd be curious , if you would be able to like, ask your partner what does this mean to you, introducing me?

Nichole: If you've already had the STARS conversation, which I didn't know that was a methodology by which to have conversations. If you've already done that, then it feels like you might be in a place where you can ask that question of what does this mean to you?

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: I hate to keep coming back to the private residence but, but you love to keep coming back to the private residence. Oh, I do. The description of the private residence made me think that you, Stubert, your interactions with our Stubert Once Removed have been insular.

Daniel: Private residence. This likely means that you have not yet met any of each other's friends.

Daniel: So I think what makes this feel like an escalation is like that complete zero to 60 you have not met anyone in my life. And now I'm gonna invite you over for a quiet dinner with my mother.

Nichole: Yes.

Laurel: Which I think is what really seals the deal that this is some kind of like, Like, you don't even know that this guy has other friends.

Nichole: Oh my God.

Nichole: I do think though, there is also the point that this person does not have that much experience in ethical or consensual non monogamy.

Laurel: Oh yeah. So they are

Nichole: operating in this kind of mononormative sense where this is, An escalation. And so somebody who's versed in polyamory or consensual non monogamy, this just might not be a thing that ever happens for any of their partners because it's not something that like, is necessary before taking a next step or necessary as a step at all.

Nichole: Is it considered a milestone for them?

Laurel: Do you guys ever after someone has met your parents, do you like,

Daniel: do a victory lap.

Laurel: Like you leveled up

Nichole: no one's ever going to meet my parents. So it's fine.

Nichole: I will never be in this position.

Daniel: This is, should we interrogate this?

Laurel: Yeah

Daniel: because

Laurel: I feel like, if invitation to love goes right. Maybe you will meet someone you want to introduce to your parents.

Daniel: You'd always said that like, one of the things that motivated you to be more open to your mom was that you wanted to be able to tell your mom that you had told someone you loved them. And it seems like Meeting somebody might be in the ballpark too Laurel is at a lot of our holiday family gatherings, carving the turkey completing our

Nichole: I need her there, like emotional support um and she's very important to you because, she is somebody who is, central to our lives.

Laurel: But you might have another person like that.

Nichole: She's so

Laurel: skeptical. We're going to, we're going to prove you wrong in short order here.

Nichole: If evidence has anything to say about it, I don't know that's ever

Daniel: going to happen. It's a new year. It's tough because we're promoting it and simultaneously sabotaging it.

Daniel: By putting it in the podcast.

Nichole: I'll just keep my expectations low.

Daniel: Is there some kind of logical fallacy like the fallacy of low expectations?

Laurel: I think there's like a difference between like low expectations and like self fulfilling prophecy, like you can have low expectations as long as you're allowing space for the possibility. Whereas if you Like rather than low expectations, you're just having the assumption that everything is going to Be terrible and not work out and then that can become a self fulfilling prophecy because that's an expectation like you can have low expectations Or you can have the expectation that everything's going to be shit.

Daniel: I think that there are like sometimes reasonable fears No.

Daniel: That one should go into new relationships, new connections with, I think practically in the world, in order to like not, die in order to not, yes, be attacked. But also not to like break your heart on hard surfaces. There should be some degree of caution. Sure. Yeah. I think the three of us. here represent like the full spectrum of like caution into which somebody might enter into a new connection or relationship.

Daniel: Wait, where am I?

Laurel: I'll go meet the parents. Let's see what happens. This is going to be fun and interesting.

Daniel: Yeah. And I'm like I'm not so sure. And Nicole is like, I'm not gonna finish that sentence cause I'm running into a wall.

Laurel: Nicole is like, this would never be a scenario in which I ever would have to encounter.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: But also this isn't about me. We can get back to the fucking

Laurel: question.

Daniel: Sorry. From now on, all the questions are about us.

Laurel: Well, Isn't that like the nature of podcasting?

Daniel: I don't know. Yeah. And she did particularly ask us to put ourselves in the position and do a, choose your own adventure with a fantastical supernatural horror angle.

Daniel: So

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: I go. I'm like, fuck it. What's the worst that could happen? Meetin mom. I go. I get consumed by vampiric death demons. Oops. I found out.

Daniel: All right. Shall we move along home? Did we answer the question? Oh stepped on Nicole's line. I did.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: given up on asking that question.

Nichole: It's fair. I, yeah. I think we gave some, some.

Laurel: Yeah, you guys are right. There are good questions to ask about that scenario.

Laurel: Can we think of an acronym for having a specific conversation about what meeting family means to you? That you can

Daniel: Well STARS is taken. How about SCARS?

Nichole: What does that stand for?

Daniel: Yeah. It doesn't stand for anything. It's just about my fucking trauma.

Daniel: What are your scars?

Daniel: I think you want to go into this situation, you want to make sure that you've got like a Laurel on your left shoulder, a Nicole on your right shoulder, and a Daniel between your legs.

Laurel: God. I was like, yeah, where are you gonna?

Nichole: I knew

Laurel: exactly

Nichole: where he

Laurel: was going to position himself. Wow, I was just imagining a tiny Daniel just gyrating in front of you.

Laurel: Which I guess is sort of similar to

Daniel: We're really leaning into our, like, Uh, David Lynch variety show identity now,

dancing,

Daniel: dancing little people in fancy suits. That's me.

Laurel: All right. What's next? Oh Hey guys. I was wondering.

Daniel: Oh yeah.

Laurel: Is this Pauly?

Song: Is this Polly or not?

Laurel: Today we will be discussing a 90s television show of which I had never seen a single episode of until earlier today.

Daniel: I'm Gen X. I saw it in the theater, man.

Laurel: You saw Allie McBeal in the

Daniel: theater. It was the short before uh, Tim Burton's Batman.

Daniel: Oh God.

Laurel: This specific episode

Nichole: is

Daniel: the short

Nichole: that comes out. It's a 45 minute short. But also the idea that you're old enough that there were shorts before movies. This was part of the newsreel. In

Daniel: a law office in New York, they have gender non specific bathrooms.

Laurel: All right who gave us this suggestion? This actually came from a internet person.

Daniel: We're fans of a few very select poly influencers. I'm sorry if that's not how you identify. And this is from chill polyamory.

Laurel: Yeah, and they brought it up on their Instagram account because there was a recent news story or something that sort of mirrored some of the concepts in this episode.

Laurel: And it piqued our interest. We're like, oh, what's that? What's that over there? Is that Polly?

Daniel: And so, uh, in exchange for us stealing your idea, Chill polyamory. We're giving you a plug. Hey all y'all, you should check out chill polyamory on Instagram, the TikToks, all the platforms. Great content.

Daniel: Yeah, definitely.

Nichole: So we watched Ally McBeal season one, episode 11, Silver Bells.

Laurel: Oh man. Just before we get into the plot of the episode there is such, there's just like a tangible thing about 90s drama. There's so much quiet, because they haven't layered so much like music and audio, that there are just quiet moments that are just purely dialogue.

Daniel: And then they pause right before they're about to say something serious.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: And there's piano music.

Laurel: Yeah. And it, yeah. And it's such, it's so visceral and it like immediately, like I was like, oh yeah, there was television like this. Yep.

Daniel: And this is kind of why I wanted to do this, is because I'm always looking for an excuse to go back to the nineties.

Nichole: I actually, I had started Ally McBeal several years ago. I watched a couple episodes and now I will watch it again. What turned me off of it from the jump, the love interest, Ally's Allie McBeal's like ex boyfriend that she goes to work in a law office with.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: They fixed it by halfway through the season, but his hair is, is so, it's distractingly bad in the first, he's got like these little baby bangs.

Nichole: Oh no! They're, it's fucking awful. And I just kept going God, he's not a, that is not, I don't understand why she's having such a conniption over like, this. Like, I don't fucking get it. Anyways, this

Daniel: baby bang loser. This may turn into a hair cast. Because there's a lot to say about the fucking hair in this episode.

Nichole: Most of it was great.

Daniel: I'm not saying it's not great. It's just Really hair.

Nichole: Yeah, because it was the end of the it was the latter half of the 90s. Yeah I think we determined this was clinton's second term. So the economy was going up Yeah, and I can't remember everyone was getting a blowout every other day And a blow job in the White House.

Nichole: I was trying to position this, if this was before or after Monica Scandal, .

Daniel: I just kept getting a lot of like cognitive bleed through to the shows and movies that these actors are in otherwise.

Daniel: Oh yes. Because I don't even know what her name is in this, but like Jenna from 30 Rock Oh yes. Is just in this show.

Nichole: Yes.

Daniel: As Jenna from 30 Rock. Yes. Jane

Nichole: Krakowski. Yes, she is. She's playing Jenna Morone. Yes. Yes.

Daniel: And the Nehi Boss is like the sub villain in ghostbusters two.

Laurel: Oh, yes. Yeah. . I cannot think of him as anything else.

Daniel: Yes. So I just, I would just kept waiting for him to be like

Clip: I await the word of Viggo. Ay, Viggo, the scourge of Carpathia. No, you've told me this, the scourge. The sorrow of Moldavia. Sorrows, I've heard all of this, yes. Command you. Command me,

Daniel: . Every segment here, I think is going to end with a supernatural horror

Nichole: angle. .

Nichole: Mm-hmm .

Daniel: Right? Um,

Nichole: Yeah. Perfect for January,

Daniel: Should we summarize the plot?

Nichole: Yes.

Daniel: I'm looking at you, Nicole.

Nichole: Yeah. Okay. So Allie McBeal is a lawyer. She works in the Boston law firm. She's working with her ex boyfriend and his wife. They're both in the office. Allie is a new lawyer in this firm.

Nichole: The frame for this episode is the fucking holiday party. Yeah. And how everyone has to perform a song

Nichole: and it's like, God.

Daniel: Should we see how long we can go without actually getting to the part of the plot that's pertinent to this?

Nichole: No, because I'm going to Steamroll you unless you have something important to say.

Nichole: So Billy is her ex boyfriend that she works with. Georgia is his wife. Yeah. They're assigned a case where three people want to get married.

Clip: Two children are by Mindy and me and our third is by all three of us. What, what do you mean by all three? James fertilized Patty's egg. It was implanted in me and I carried it to term.

Clip: Um, well, obviously that this has no precedent to it. But the definition of the nuclear family is constantly evolving. The time is coming. It has to start somewhere. And it would have to start with me.

Nichole: You have the husband and wife who are already legally married to each other and have children together. And then you have the husband and his girlfriend, essentially. Who started out as an affair, they all have children together, basically.

Yeah.

Nichole: And they all live together. And so they want to legally be married all to each other as a triad.

Daniel: Immediately, all the women react to this. All the women in the law firm react to it with open hostility. Oh, yeah. They are just aghast. They're shooting daggers. This is such an interesting study in the 20th century, sex in the city, Single ladies hostility against any possibility of non monogamy because it implies infidelity of a man vibe.

Nichole: Yeah. To the point where a lot of Ally McBeal is her fantasy. So , there'll be like little vignettes that are just like her inner fantasy worlds coming to life. And one of those is, they have the intake with the clients and then they're in court and husband is on the stand.

Nichole: He says something to the effect of I want to marry both of them. And Allie has a fantasy of shooting him, but also the fantasy of the judge and Georgia also shooting him with a gun. And actually what he

Laurel: says is he goes,

Clip: We're a family, your honor. Conventional, no, but we're happy, we're devoted to each other. The kids live in a home where there's love and trust and security. How many people in this room can make the same claim?

Laurel: And then cut to shooting fantasy. , I think that I went into it wanting to not like this show. I think that's just I don't know, my cynicism. But I think after those initial strong reactions

Laurel: I was like, actually, that's a really intelligent view into the psyche , of, you have all of these women in relationships that are strained or complicated in some way or another. And then you have this person who's just like, I'm happy, and it doesn't look like what you want your lives to look like, but I'm happy, and then the assumed anger and jealousy of that moment that Allie is not just fantasizing for herself, but also for the other women in the room.

Nichole: Yes.

Daniel: And their points of view, these women who are angry at the idea of this non monogamous relationship, are, for the most part, for most of the episode, portrayed as a little ridiculous. Like, when Allie McBeal says things like a marriage should be between two people, relationships should be between two people, just not three or four.

Daniel: It sounds so arbitrary and dumb. It sounds like somebody saying a marriage should be between Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. That is how it sounded to me. Maybe I'm a little biased, but that. was the vibe. And they also give voice to the more sensitive point of view. They give it to the only black woman in the cast when she's talking with Allie and Allie is like doing all of her bullshit around , you know, it should be uh, Adam and Eve, not Adam and Eve and Eve.

Daniel: And. This character Renee presents to her, point by point breaking down why it doesn't really make any sense for her. And maybe what she is really wanting is a relationship like this. It's just out of reach.

Daniel: Everybody's got this big boundary in place where they feel like they just shouldn't. They can't. It's not right.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: And yet, in all of these relationships, it is clear that all of them could be actually happy, or at least a little happier if they could push past those boundaries. And that point of view is at least presented halfway through the episode.

Daniel: They do a lot of work to undo that near the end. Yeah.

Nichole: These polyamorous clients talk about how they came to this arrangement because the husband was having an affair. And the wife suddenly realized how much more emotionally available he was and how much more he wanted to have sex with her, not knowing that he was having an affair. So when she found out that he was having an affair, she was of course initially devastated, but then saw the benefits of like, yeah, but he also like really revved up our marriage while he was having an affair.

Nichole: So what's, what is the harm? In having this other person be a part of our marriage and our lives

Daniel: and this sticks with georgia, right? It does she's thinking about this later on and she pulls her husband aside billy bangs Billy bad bangs And she says to him

Clip: This is the best we've ever been together. Sexually, emotionally, ever since Allie came here. I beg your pardon? You've been less, I don't know, repressed. Because of Allie.

Clip: It is not that ridiculous. What, you think there's something going on between me and Allie? Of course there is something going on. Maybe not sexual, but we all know there is something going on, and And what? I think there are little pockets of intimacy that you can't get to with me, that you do get to with her. And as a result of that, you and I have been more intimate.

Clip: Allie has been good for us, and it pisses me off.

Nichole: Yes. So then later, Billy tells Allie this. And Allie makes the mistake of telling Georgia that Billy told her and Georgia gets real mad and basically puts out the boundary of I told you that Billy in confidence. And part of trusting you is that you don't say things that we say about our relationship to Allie.

Nichole: And this gets Allie in the middle of the two of them.

Laurel: This is the most Polly part of the show. It really is,

Nichole: yes. Because Georgia decides that they have to be, they have to talk about this. Mm hmm. So they all go into, An office together or a conference room and they all sit on the couch next to each other.

Nichole: Billy on one side of Allie, Georgia on the other side of her. And it's just Allie McBeal saying. I just don't think I should be here. I just don't think I should be here. And George is saying, no, you have to be here. And then nothing gets resolved. Yeah.

Daniel: But she does say in Allie's presence about what she's so upset about, which is that she doesn't know what to do.

Daniel: Because she is like experiencing all the benefits of emotional non monogamy. Yes. And She feels conflicted about it, and she really likes Allie, and that makes it even more difficult. And it was like, you guys just didn't fucking polycule. Yeah and instead, Allie kind of storms up and does a pratfall on the way out.

Nichole: Yeah, that, that feels like it's a character trait, maybe.

Nichole: , Did not read Fifty Shades of Grey, but my best friend and I saw Fifty Shades of Grey on Valentine's Day in like 2014 or whenever it came out in Milwaukee, Wisconsin when I was visiting her at 11 a.

Nichole: m. in the morning.

Laurel: Wow, this keeps getting better.

Nichole: We're sitting in this fucking empty theater and It's one of like the first scenes and the young woman is entering, like about to walk into the office of the Dom or whatever. And the second before she leaves the elevator, I'm like, she's going to fall. She's going to fall.

Nichole: Just watch. And she does like a fucking, like she falls. It's like, yeah, because they need to show that she's like, Clumsy. Yeah. And like, oh, oh, look at me. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm just so, oh, I'm just so clumsy. I was like, uh. You know, just like self effacing, like, dummy. It's like the pre,

Daniel: it's the pre history of Zooey Daschnell.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: Sidebar, these gender non-specific bathrooms. Oh, yeah. I love that. This is such an interesting plot device.

Nichole: It was the whole fucking thing of Allie McBeal. That was that a thing? Like when it was out, people were like, absolutely. I remember this from the nineties being like, can you believe they have.

Nichole: Just co ed bathrooms on Ally McBeal.

Daniel: Here's my weird little theory though about this bathroom is that it's not really a gender neutral bathroom. It's a women's bathroom where everybody is allowed because they are playing by the psychological long established rules.

Daniel: Of the women's bathroom, where it is a place where y'all talk, oh

Nichole: God. Yeah, you're right. Because that's where Billy and Allie McBeal have their like little tête à tête as far as this is what my wife told me about our relationship. Also, I don't see any urinals. Also, I think there's plants in there.

Laurel: Maybe I'm confusing things, but there was a point where it almost seemed like there were vanity esque mirrors, rather than just like mirrors by a sink.

Nichole: Yes. Yes.

Laurel: I like this theory. Everyone just uses the women's restroom because it's better.

Nichole: I like it too.

Daniel: And it's inviting also this entire social milieu into the more, you know, It's like a more communicative and intimate environment of women's social interactions. Like everybody is interacting like women and sharing their emotions, at least by 90s standards, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Laurel: Interesting.

Daniel: So Georgia is really like saying to Billie, I like you so much better now that you're pissing in the women's bathroom.

Daniel: You're so much more sensitive.

Nichole: So while this trial is happening and Georgia and Allie are trying to argue for these three people to be able to marry each other, the judge, Whipper,

Daniel: This is part of the hair cast. Whippers got epic 90s curls. Whippers got

Nichole: Amazing hair. And is the sexiest judge I've ever seen.

Laurel: Yeah. Wearing just like a three string pearl choker.

Nichole: Yes. Yeah. It was a sight to behold.

Nichole: So the judge at one point During this trial, goes to visit the, are they the plaintiffs? Who are they? Cause it's not a criminal trial. Yeah.

Daniel: The petitioners.

Nichole: Sure. She visits the husband and his wives at their home, which Unannounced!

Nichole: Unannounced! Which cannot be a thing. That cannot be legal. No way. That cannot. No way. Especially because it influenced her ruling, and she says in her ruling, when I visited your home last night, I was like, what the fuck,

Daniel: dude? Did it also seem like it was Christmas Eve?

Nichole: It was close to Christmas. Yes.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: And the vibe with what she shows up is not like in a legal capacity. It's not like she seemed to show up and be like, I'd like to take a look at this home, you know, of yours and , like, see what the situation is actually like, it was like, A kind of needy, unstable girlfriend showing up at the door, being like, I don't know why I'm here I just needed to see your children.

Nichole: It was it was to further her fucking weird. It was so weird. And also, again, to me. Probably very illegal.

Laurel: Okay, but my favorite part is when she's leaving and the little girl is just like, Merry Christmas. And I feel like you're supposed to have a fucking Scrooge McDuck. Duck moment or something Oh, this little girl is going to warm the icy heart of this cougar judge.

Laurel: Non monogamy is real.

Nichole: I love both my mommies.

Laurel: It was uh, to the credit of the show, they've just showed a very normal. Totally. Normal household.

Nichole: Yeah. It did look like they had two fucking living rooms and like a massive amount of space. It was this huge fucking house. Yeah.

Daniel: This fucking dude too. He is the whitest, squarest being that I have ever so I actually watched this one twice and I, so I could write down some notes and

Daniel: most of my notes ended up being things that his head looked like.

Daniel: So, So Oh, Laurel, are you okay? Laurel was drinking water.

Daniel: Okay, I got that one

Laurel: down.

Daniel: Alright, that

Laurel: was close.

Daniel: Can I share? Yeah, share with him. Okay number one. His head looks like a ham, but not a juicy ham, like a dry ham. Oh no! His head looks like a wooden white man head if that's what they had outside of tobacco shops.

Oh my god!

Daniel: His head looks like it's constructed out of bricks and spackled over with rubber latex.

Nichole: Whoa. Graphic. All of these are very accurate. Yeah.

Daniel: Okay. I just wanted to make sure, I wanted to reflect with you two to make sure that I was perceiving.

Nichole: No, I validate that was a yes.

Daniel: Correctly.

Nichole: The, all of the lawyers at the firm are at the Christmas party.

Laurel: Singing their songs. Singing

Nichole: their songs that they're forced to sing.

Laurel: Singing their songs that they've been rehearsing for

Nichole: the past week? Because they don't have work to do? Yeah, what? I don't know what the fuck that was. And Allie and Georgia are like sitting next to each other at the bar. And Georgia is basically like

Clip: I'm sorry if I came off a lunatic. You didn't. No, no, no, the truth is, is that I do use him. What? Billy! I mean, whenever I feel insecure or, or, I don't know, unsteady, I, I tend to grab hold of things that steady me and, and Billy does that. I know. I mean, the weird thing is, is that, so do you. Me? Sometimes. I admire you, Georgia.

Clip: Oh, how awful.

Nichole: And then they get called away from the Christmas party because the judge has her verdict. And they go into the courtroom and the judge, again, says, When I visited your home last night, what I saw was a normal family.

Nichole: Or whatever the fuck.

Yeah.

Daniel: And then she leaves and he puts back on the gimp suit.

Nichole: She basically, she denies their request. Of getting a marriage because, and she also brings in, because she has all of these, her own personal hangups about marriage this also doesn't seem legal. I understand the legal argument for making a three way marriage, but I think you just got the wrong judge.

Nichole: And it's what the

fuck? I'm

Daniel: going to make a completely subjective decision. It was so weird. She said, there's no reason. I can find no reason why the law shouldn't recognize. Yeah, but I don't feel like it. I This entire universe like this, the Ally McBeal fictional universe is like a universe of terrible boundaries in every single context of life.

Daniel: Like the judge goes to the house, the judge is sleeping with one of the lawyers on the legal, team

Laurel: meanwhile, Allie McBeal's boss is trying to ask her out on a date all through this episode.

Nichole: That is the other that is the C plot. Yeah.

Nichole: No, that's like, that's like the D, plot

Daniel: would you like to go on a date with me and Viggo?

Laurel: Okay, wait, McBeal is apologizing to One of the, whatever, the wives, one of the wives. And she's like, I'm sorry. And the wife just like finishes her sentence by saying like, she made the right decision. It was like a weird

Daniel: okay, let's reel this in moment.

Laurel: Even though we didn't foreshadow this in any other element of the show, let's just like wrap it all up at the end and just put a bow on it that like one of the people was coerced into this situation.

Yeah,

Daniel: completely invalidate

Laurel: the relationship.

Laurel: Yeah. Yes. Which kind of sucked because the rest of it was very like. Seemed very sweet and normal

Nichole: yeah, so up until the second to last scene Yeah, it seemed like it was pro. Yeah Polly

Daniel: and I think on balance It still comes out that way. I hate to be the person who's saying this, but this is my duty as a cis white man Oh, it's a creature of its times and we have to put it in context for its era.

Daniel: But it's true, right? Like, This show knew its fucking audience. Its audience are the angry at polyamory women of the Sex and the City, the dagger eye shooters.

Laurel: Yes.

Daniel: They couldn't full throatedly reject their philosophical position on this show.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: So they went as close as they possibly could and then walked it back.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah, because it is very like, yeah, it's the Ally McBeal show. Like she is the protagonist. The interstitial fantasies are her fantasies. Like she is the point of view. And there are still like, yes, all of these other elements of the show outside of her. the couple she is defending in court. And then also the way Georgia is responding to this ambiguous three way between her husband and Ali.

Laurel: That are all very intelligently in touch with the mechanisms of polyamory. They don't feel like caricatures.

Daniel: If we take sex out of the equation, do we end this episode with Allie? Georgia and Billy bangs In an emotionally non monogamous relationship that is to some extent accepted and understood between the three of them?

Laurel: That is Georgia's perspective because she's like, technically you're not cheating. Technically you are within the bounds of our agreements. But also, we all know that there is something beyond.

Daniel: So at the end of the day, I'm gonna say, yes, it's Polly. It may not be perfect Polly, but it is a depiction of polyamory. Like Laura was saying, there was really authentic emotional characterizations of polyamorous dynamics, I think that somebody who was touching this script somewhere had some experience with non monogamy or polyamory.

Laurel: Yeah, I agree. I definitely felt like there was some semblance of representation there because I think, especially for its time in that context, it would be so easy to just make a totally bombastic caricature of polyamory or that relationship

Daniel: Yeah, they didn't depict like, a laurel.

Laurel: It wasn't me!

Laurel: Um, But yeah, until they just do the silly walk back at the end. I felt like, yeah, this is a polycule, this is a polyamorous situation.

Nichole: I'm gonna say yes with a caveat. So at the very first scene, when you're introduced to the man and his wife and his other partner, from the jump. The wife is uncomfortable. Like in that scene, I turned to Daniel and said, the wife doesn't want this.

Laurel: I didn't notice it. Yeah.

Daniel: Do you think that Nicole picking up on this means that she's empathic?

Laurel: Yes! Conversation I was having with Daniel the other day. I was like, do you think I was just, not about you specifically, I was just like, do you think empathic people actually exist?

Laurel: Oh, no.

Daniel: Yeah. I, my point of view was that If somebody says they're empathic, you know that they are a narcissist.

Nichole: A thousand percent. Correct.

Daniel: It's one of the, there's a whole there's a whole array of things that people can say that, you know, that they're a narcissist. So most of the people in the world are narcissists.

Daniel: Um, I'm an old soul. Narcissist. Um, I am uh, sapiosexual. Yeah.

Narcissist. Yep.

Nichole: Huh. It was showing the positives.

Laurel: Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

Nichole: Because I've experienced those. Yeah. I do think that Daniel meeting you and us, getting more into the kitchen table poly thing absolutely impacted our relationship

Laurel: and

Nichole: our ability to grow close. I

Daniel: was just trying to think of uh, uh, dirty, ridiculous things to say.

course you were.

Laurel: I want a little gif of what Daniel looks like when he's trying to think of dirty, ridiculous things to say. Cause he's kind of, It's a little bit like, like prairie dogging, like meerkatting like, just like, look at like, dart, darting looks like, but like, And you look

Nichole: back and forth between us.

Nichole: That's

Daniel: because I'm trying to say, what can I say that will go to the edge of pleasing Laurel, but not angering Nicole? Ha ha ha ha Ha

Song: This has been Polyamateur Hour, a production of Risa Records. If you have a question for Ask the Amateurs, or a recommendation for Is This Poly, please email us at polyamateurhour at gmail dot com. If you enjoyed the show, and you know you did, you perv, please subscribe to us on your podcatcher of choice, leave us a five star review, and most importantly, tell at least one person in your life to check us out.

Song: But we hope you tell three. Remember, the advice given by the amateurs should not be followed. Unless you are prepared to be ecstatically happy, successful, and strange. Until next time!