Laurel: Do you remember when we went to the drag show? At the dive bar?

Nichole: Yes. Vividly?

Clip: Yes.

Laurel: Vividly. and while we were like ordering drinks at the bar, the, there was someone who we assumed was a patron at the bar, like hitting on Nicole Hardcore, and then we later found out that he actually worked at the bar because the bartender threatened to fire him for hitting on Nicole.

Daniel: I, I think he was threatening to fire him for failing in his hitting on Nicole if it had been successful.

Nichole: don't even know that he was hitting on me. Was he hitting on me?

Laurel: Let me remind you that this gentleman said to the bartender like, Hey, her drink is on me.

and, and you said no, no, no.

Don't worry. My husband. Has got it.

Nichole: Okay.

Daniel: You said it a couple times,

my husband who is standing over here to my side, my husband will be buying it tonight. Have you met my husband?

Laurel: and then Daniel.

And then Daniel turned to this man and he said she's Polly. She can't use that as an excuse.

And I just wanted to make sure you both remembered this as clearly as I do.

Nichole: Okay? But you guys missed a big part of our conversation.

Laurel: What was part of it?

Nichole: so. This person turns to me.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: When I'm standing in line and they say this, this just sounds like I'm bragging, They said, you are intimidatingly beautiful.

Laurel: Ooh.

Daniel: Oh yeah. They weren't hitting on you.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah. Are you sure this person, I don't think they were even hitting on me.

Nichole (2): I dunno that they were, I was their type, honestly, like, gender wise I said to this person that's really kind of you to say, I got broken up with this weekend by someone who found me intimidating. So that's very kind. So I'm sure they could put two and two together. If I said, my husband is buying my diet Coke. Obviously I just got broken up with somebody, obviously on Polly.

Daniel: Maybe I missed some of that,

Nichole: like all of it,

Daniel: but to me, this, it sounded much more like person is trying to buy you a drink. and you're like, no, my husband has it. Like you hit like the, the hard D in it, like

Laurel: the husband.

Oh

Nichole: my God. I did not, that was not my intention. My intention was just, you don't have to pay a dollar 50 for my Coke. let this person who's gonna

Daniel: and I'm like, I'm her Jewish husband and I'm cheaper than that. You can pay the dollar 50.

Laurel: Daniel was like, please cover this Diet Coke.

Daniel: I didn't wanna be like the patriarchy, you know, husband block here.

Nichole: but that wasn't what I was doing. I was literally saying he's already ordered it. It's on his tab

Daniel: In that case, I was doing you a favor because I was clarifying that your intentions were not to uh, use me as a human shield.

Nichole: Yes. I didn't know that that was what this person thought.

Daniel: So you're welcome.

Laurel: the craziest part of this whole thing is that that bartender charged anyone for that diet Coke.

Nichole: I know. I've been, I've been getting charged for diet Cokes and stuff at bars recently. Really? And I'm like, they must be hard up, because typically it was like I, the times for years it was like, oh, don't worry about it.

Don't worry about it. I would just like 100% tip them.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah.

Nichole: You know,

Laurel: yeah.

Daniel: But now with the rise of the sobers, that's happened. Y'all are, y'all are taken over.

Laurel (2): Like, I guess I get it if Dye It Coke is the only thing that's being ordered, Yeah. I, I am happy to give my husband's money to that establishment

and random bar strangers money

Nichole: who already works there.

So it's like,

Laurel: I know it was probably like, put it on my tab because I get it for free. Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah. That wasn't even buying me a drink. That was just,

I think if you really want to get in my pants.

Buy me some curly fries.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah.

Nichole: Don't gimme a drink.

Laurel: I think that's, that should be the new thing. Like just send those, can you send an order of mozzarella sticks to that in the bar?

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. What, what if that's what I had said. Instead of she's Polly. if you really wanna get in her pants, buy her some curly fries,

Welcome to Poly Amateur Hour.

Nichole: I'm,

Laurel: I'm

Nichole: Laurel, I'm Nicole. We went to go say it at the same time.

Daniel: I'm Daniel. I lagged far behind.

Laurel: Well, you're supposed

Nichole: to. You're supposed to.

Daniel: I'm supposed to come last.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: Just in general.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: well, that was a good segue to what we're doing right now, which is,

Daniel: Okay. Wait. Back up. Okay, back up. Back up. Segue. I had a Segway idea. Okay.

Wouldn't my husband's money be a great number and a musical?

Nichole: Yeah. If it isn't one already, Uhhuh, I'm surprised.

Laurel: Yeah, same.

Daniel: we were thinking it's been a little while since we've done, an old fashioned is this poly.

Daniel (2): We get more, is this poly recommendations than anything else? Than anything else? But they're always like series that we all need to like dive in and watch the whole series. No, no, no, no, no.

Laurel (2): We are doing it, just very slowly. 'cause we're, we're busy.

Daniel: We're working on pluribus.

Laurel: Pleis.

Nichole: we probably also get a lot of, is this probably, recommendations because it's like the first form on our website.

Laurel: Should I reorder the forms? Should I do anything to the forms I've been promising to do for the last. 18 months,

Nichole: put it on your list.

Laurel (2): Now that I've got , the ADHD meds back, I have been working through lists.

Nichole: Yay. I love a list.

Daniel: I hope that when somebody eventually starts the wiki for this podcast, that

Laurel: they keep track of the meds. I'm on and off.

Daniel: Well, not just you, all

Laurel: of us,

Daniel: we're all talking about what meds we're on.

Laurel: This is true.

Daniel: you know how they show, like what are the main cast members of Buffy throughout the seventh season run or whatever.

Mm-hmm. It'll be like what meds All on? It'll

Laurel: be like a timeline.

Daniel: Visual. Yeah. Yeah.

Laurel: And it's like venlafaxine

Nichole: can't wait for it.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: hence the segue. We thought we would do some show tunes today.

Nichole: Great.

Laurel: Yay. Fire 'em up. Love a show tune.

Daniel: we're gonna start with a little number from Cabaret. Hmm. Called

Two Ladies.

Laurel: I also totally forgot about this song.

Nichole: I know. Me too. But then I knew every single lyric and it's gonna take a lot for me not to sing along.

Laurel: Sing it, baby Samp.

Clip: Some people have one people, some have two people, some even.

Nichole: Two ladies. Two ladies. Oh, I'm the only man. Yeah,

they like it. It's two for one.

Daniel: So now we know why Nicole is Polly.

Nichole: I really did grow up watching this movie. Hmm.

Daniel: If there's not a musical theater origin story for it, it's not real.

Nichole: My polyamory.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: It was this one song sung by like a kind of minor character

Daniel: Joel Gray's character is not minor.

He's the center of the whole cabaret.

Nichole: Yeah. But there's entire scenes that take place outside of the cabaret.

Daniel: Who fucking cares?

Nichole: I do because Liza Minnelli is a treasure

Daniel: I had completely forgotten about this song too.

I think I've seen cabaret all the way through once years ago. In part because, it's just so cliched for me to like, just be into all the Holocaust fiction, you know?

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: Technically pre Holocaust, this is Berlin, like 1935.

Daniel: Our timelines, as Jews is just, it's all Holocaust, whether it's pre Holocaust, post Holocaust.

Nichole: Okay.

Daniel: Doesn't really matter.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah. one, I think it's charming.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: two, I think it has like some domestic poly elements Like they're talking about how there's like a division of domestic labor.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Uh, one of 'em does the laundry. One of 'em bakes the bread.

Nichole: No. One of 'em makes the bed.

Daniel: One of 'em makes the bed and then he goes and buys the daily bread.

Nichole: He earns

Daniel: bread earns the day. He,

Nichole: he probably buys it too.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah. I mean,

Daniel: yeah. He makes money for the daily bread. Yes. Yeah.

Now that we have that sorted out,

Laurel: now that we know the difference between the bed bread and bread

Daniel: and the gender roles of mm-hmm.

The three genders,

Laurel: there's only so much you can ask for 1930 fives Berlin.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: I can't remember where in the musical this shows up as far as like the storyline. Yeah. I can't remember what it's mirroring.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: I think Sally Bowles in kind of a love triangle. I can't remember.

Laurel: Nicole just took off her glasses.

Buckle up,

Nichole: reminding myself doing this at work. Love it. Like when I'm really serious, I just take my glasses off and set them down and go look.

Laurel: Do you rub the bridge of your nose a little bit.

Nichole: All the time. All the time.

Daniel: Sidebar,

Nichole: I'll allow it. But watch yourself, counselor.

Daniel: An unintentional sex bit that I don't think that we've ever discussed on the podcast.

Nichole: I know exactly what you're going to talk about. I don't know that it's a sex bit as much as it, it is logistical

Daniel: except I turned it into a sex bit later on and did it.

Oh. Oh. Now we need to explain it before I actually, yeah, yeah. What are you talking about? Okay, so once

Nichole: I wanna be in the room where it happens,

Daniel: where it happens. So sometimes I will get carried away with the sex. I will leave, I will leave my spectacles on the entire time.

Laurel: Sometimes.

Daniel: And then after I come, I will reach up and take my glasses off.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: And I will put them, that'll be like one of the first things that I do. It's like part of the, the beginning of the refractory period is the removal of the glasses

Laurel: Uhhuh. Okay.

Daniel: And this one time I had already taken my glasses off, but had forgotten that I had taken my glasses off.

And so after I had an orgasm, I reached up and, and just grabbed air. And Nicole just starts like, she just starts having like Mr. Jiggles scale laughter at this.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: like subsequently

Nichole: mm-hmm.

Daniel: I would, I would mime this even when like I knew And you knew that I knew,

Nichole: yeah.

Daniel: That I had taken them off.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: But I was not wearing glasses. I would just reach up. Like a little salute.

Nichole: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Daniel: And just pretend that I was taking off glasses,

Nichole: so yeah.

Okay. That counts.

Daniel: Yes.

Nichole: Yeah. That's

Laurel: nice. Yeah. That's nice.

Nichole: One sex bit.

Laurel: And it happens only after.

Nichole: Yep.

Laurel: The entire act is complete and wrapped up.

Daniel: So it's definitely like a closed triad in the song.

Nichole: Right. But it's played for laughs.

So like the entire song in the context of the musicals that they're at a cabaret and they're performing for cabaret people. Yeah. And the entire time people are like, ha ha ha ha ha, ha

ha.

Daniel: But our polyamory is also played for laughs. Does that make it less Polly?

Nichole: Good question.

Laurel: Here's the thing about Cabaret in general I always think of it as this seedy underbelly of, not just like kink, but just like untraditional

Daniel: mm-hmm.

Laurel: Values and stuff in general.

Daniel: Totally.

Laurel: so, the play for laughs I always think of it a little bit of, if you know, you know

Nichole: mm-hmm.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: Kind of wink. and if you don't know, you think this whole thing's a joke

Daniel: Yeah. Queerness also. Yes. Very much so.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah.

Nichole: It's a very queer space.

Daniel: Yeah,

So

Nichole: is this poly?

Laurel: I'm gonna say yes. I think the whole, like the setting, even just like the description within the song.

Nichole: I agree. Yes. It is poly.

Daniel: Yes, it is poly.

Nichole: So

Laurel: What's next?

Daniel (2): once I was like, Ooh, musical theater, theater, I discovered a song performed by the great Jinx monsoon.

Daniel: everybody's Girl. Now, Nicole, you figured out what musical this is actually from

Nichole: Steel Peer. I've never heard of this musical.

Daniel: That's what I call my dick.

Nichole: Oh god.

Daniel: That's what I call your pussy

Nichole: stop.

Daniel: That's what you say every time I call Anything. Anything.

Nichole: Yeah, that's true.

God, their voice is so fucking amazing.

and I'm on the liner notes for this album. Oh yeah.

Daniel: So Nicole has a kind of a connection, a backdoor connection with jinx monsoon that makes it sound dirtier

Nichole: than it is.

That really does. No, no. We just knew each other in Seattle and my best friend, is there, you know, lyricist, composer, musical accompaniment.

Daniel: Shout out to major scales.

Nichole: Major scales. Richard Andreessen major scales

Laurel: back to the song.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Laurel: Is it Polly or is it just slutty?

Nichole: hmm.

Daniel: the character seems very, Dedicated to their lifestyle, it does not seem like they want to, eventually settle down is there a certain amount of slutty that you can just turn up to the point where it is poly and vice versa?

Like, at what point, you know, do the two circles merge into a healthy zen diagram?

Nichole: I think. This person is exalting their sluttiness.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: Like love sex, love men.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: And just because you know it, it's probably Danni one day, it might be Manny the next day if she wants to.

Laurel: Yeah. It could be, it could not

be,

Nichole: you know, so she could be discerning. Mm-hmm. And maybe it's more in the solo Polly realm where it's not just that like she'll fuck anything that moves, it's that she really enjoys sex and she doesn't wanna just have it with one person for the rest of her life.

Daniel: It's a very joyful expression.

Nichole: Yes.

Daniel: Slutting.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: and for that reason. Maybe it evokes a feeling of love, even though it's not necessarily explicitly stated.

Nichole: I'm afraid you're gonna tell me that the plot of this is that she gets syphilis and dies,

Laurel: Jesus Christ.

No,

Nichole: it just feels like that's what a musical is. It's,

Laurel: yeah.

Daniel: We've moved on from cabaret.

on a lot of these, I feel like we've gotta go with our hearts, just like the protagonist of this song.

Clip: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: And so I'm going to not be able to keep my conceptual legs closed. Mm.

And I will say that it is Polly on Vibes.

Clip: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: I think it's Polly.

Laurel: I get more like, open relationship have no particular commitments to anybody.

Vibes.

Daniel: I feel like they commit to the song,

Laurel: they too commit to the song.

Nichole: I get that.

Laurel: Yeah. But

Nichole: I think I want to believe

Nichole: I just wanna believe that the character is fully autonomous and like, what if, what if the plot of this.

Is that they have to build a steel pier and

Clip: yes,

Nichole: they're, it's like all these dock workers are like peer workers or whatever, like steel workers and they're like, man, I wish we had somebody to whistle at. And then this woman comes on, she thinks this one song

Daniel: she's,

Nichole: and then she disappears for the rest of the show.

Daniel: Oh. I thought maybe she was like, she was hired by the construction company to be like the dedicated cat Callie. Like she's part of the team just, and she just walks back and forth

Laurel: so that they have something to yell at. I thought you were gonna say that. She really wants this peer built,

Daniel: and so she mobilizes.

Laurel: Yeah,

Daniel: lovers gotta,

Nichole: gets this peer, even though a pier is basically a bridge to nowhere. Like it's just,

Clip: I just need a pier.

Daniel: Wow. You just, you just wanna make all these musicals bummers, right? You're like, oh, she's gonna die of syphilis.

It's a bridge to nowhere.

Nichole: It's, it's the alternative title. It's steal. Peter, do we have another?

Daniel: Yeah, we got, we got one more. I think we got one more.

This one from one of my like favorite musicals from back in the day. Cole Porter's Classic Kiss Me, Kate. And the song is always true to you in my fashion.

Laurel: I'm like reading through the lyrics, And all of them are about like, like wealthy, prominent men except,

Daniel: yeah, I

Nichole: know.

Laurel: Except there's a lush from Portland, Oregon who is always such a boar.

the rest of them, like there is some indication that they're wealthy.

Nichole: Mm-hmm. Or men of power.

Laurel: Or men of power.

Daniel: But we're drunks.

Laurel: But we're drunks.

Nichole: Yeah. I don't know about the Polly in this.

Daniel: No. but there is I feel like there are, there are some, clearly referred to non-monogamy Mm-hmm.

Clip: Like

Daniel: the idea of being always true to someone in a fashion that is not, the collective fashion mm-hmm. That we all decide on means true or monogamous.

Like to, you have a different way of being true to someone is non-monogamous. I don't think it's poly though,

Nichole: Yeah. I think it's just, I, it doesn't come across as genuine.

Clip: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: like I think the character is saying, I'm always true to you in my way in that you know, it could mean that I'm like, not that committed to you.

it feels like they're stringing this person along.

Daniel: I feel like they're saying that you are the only one that I actually love. And despite the fact that I'm sleeping with a lot of rich men for money.

Nichole: I just don't know. I don't know that she loves him.

I think this character is, pulling a fast one.

Laurel: Mm.

Why do you hate sex workers?

Nichole: I hate women too.

Laurel: Wait, have you seen this?

Daniel: Yes. Yes.

Laurel: Show,

Daniel: but I do not remember this character. It's not a main character.

Laurel: Oh, okay.

I know nothing

Daniel: like Oklahoma. They don't give the slut a prominent. Role.

Laurel: Rude.

Daniel: I know.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: Rude. yeah. I mostly got like, oh yeah, this is like sex work vibes and she's trying to convince this man that she's with that.

It's like, oh, well it means nothing to me or nothing more than I just do it for money.

like, you know, I always come back to you.

Daniel: I think that she enjoys the sex work.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah. And not just the money, but the sex, yeah. And the life of adventure. Mm-hmm. The variety as well. I don't think it's just about the money.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah. That's fair.

Nichole: That's fair.

Laurel: because there is that one lush in Portland, Oregon,

Daniel: So do, are we agreeing, not Polly,

Nichole: it's not Polly,

Laurel: not Polly,

Daniel: but should we perhaps present this, you know, character study this analysis to our upcoming guest?

Nichole: You're suggesting that we ask our guest, Heidi ve, to join us in a deconstruction of this character from this musical that Laurel hasn't seen, I haven't seen in 25 years.

Daniel: I haven't seen in 25 years.

Nichole: And you haven't seen in 25 years.

Daniel: Minor character.

Nichole: Minor character,

Daniel: Maybe just let the segue bloom in all of its glory and then forget it a minute later.

Nichole: Yeah,

Laurel: yeah. I was very excited to have Heidi on the podcast, Heidi of Steady Polyamory.

Nichole: We're gonna talk to her about Practical Poly and her therapeutic practice. Mm-hmm. She is a counselor,

Laurel: Practical Poly is a little segment or we talk to folks who are providing some kind of service for the poly community.

Nichole: And, we're also just gonna drag her down, to our level So I hope she's ready for this.

Daniel: She knows what she's getting into. Probably

Nichole: maybe

Laurel: she, she saw us at her live show, so

Daniel: Oh,

Nichole: oh. That she absolutely knows.

Daniel: Fantastic.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yes.

Nichole: Okay, great. I feel better now.

Laurel: Yeah,

Nichole: let's go get her.

Daniel: Oh, oh, oh, oh.

Drum roll please.

welcome to the basement.

Heidi: Why thank you.

Yeah. It's a lovely basement.

Daniel: Well, thank you very much.

Heidi: It's not at all a murder basement, and I appreciate that.

Nichole: Thank you.

Daniel: I mean, we, we do it up that way so that nobody suspects it's,

Heidi: yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I bought it, you know,

Nichole: Heidi, can you introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about yourself Yeah.

Heidi: Yeah. So I am

Heidi: Okay.

a therapist and I'm also a polyamory coach, so my therapy I do just in Oregon and then my coaching I do across the country, across the world. Yeah. I work with lots of different folks. It's actually really fun to get to work with people in different regions and kind of learn about the poly cultures in different places, not just in the country, but in other countries.

Yes. That's cool. Yeah.

Daniel: what are some of the countries that you would not expect that you've done some work in?

Heidi: Korea.

Daniel: Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Heidi: Indonesia.

Daniel: Ah, right.

Heidi: Iceland.

Daniel: Ooh. It gets cold. You gotta get a family bed.

Heidi: Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes I have to ask, kind of embarrassing for me questions.

I was working with someone in Australia and. She was like, okay, well this has been great. I would love to meet with you again. Can we meet in a Fortnite? And I was like, absolutely, we can. As soon as you tell me what a Fortnite is.

Nichole: Yeah. Right? Yes. Yes. is that like two weeks?

Heidi: Okay. Well, I think so. Apparently everyone but me knew that already.

Nichole: I watched BB, C dramas on

Heidi: Okay.

Nichole: PB. Yes.

Heidi: Well, now I also know what a fortnight now, you know, is

Nichole: Yes.

Daniel: Yeah. So you know now to answer No if anybody asks you if you wanna spend the fortnight together. Yes.

Heidi: Yeah. It sounds like it could just be like a day or two.

but no. Or like

Nichole: a night where you build a fort.

Heidi: Right.

Nichole: I would totally do that.

Laurel: Building a fort. Sounds fun.

Nichole: That's one night of whimsy.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nichole: And then I'm back to being very serious and thinking about 4 0 1 Ks. Yes.

Laurel: It told Nicole's thinking about all the time.

Nichole: That and pie.

Yeah.

Daniel: You're gonna pay for that one night of whimsy.

Nichole: It's gonna take me three weeks to recover. Ugh.

Laurel: okay. I'm, curious, are you able, willing to share a little bit about like your journey and experience with polyamory in

China?

Heidi: Oh yeah.

Laurel: Okay.

Heidi: Yeah. It was a hot mess.

Laurel: Ooh.

Heidi: so I, when I was in my early thirties, was like following the relationship escalator, compulsory monogamy, met someone and like it wasn't great. Mm-hmm. But it was like, good enough. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I was like, okay, this'll do, we should do the thing. So

Daniel: life is not that long, you know?

Yeah. Just ride this out.

Heidi: Yeah.

Daniel: Dead in no time.

Heidi: You know, honestly, I was learning, I was doing a lot of training at the time. I was already a therapist, but I was doing s. Specific training with like couples therapy mm-hmm. Stuff. And I was like, you know what? As long as I know this stuff, I can make any relationship work.

Nichole: Mm. Interesting.

Heidi: It's, it was an interesting take I had.

Nichole: Wow.

Heidi: Right.

Daniel: This is like, this is like giving, you know, the, the orangutan a handgun, you know, like it's like too much power. Right. Am am I, am I

Heidi: the orangutan

Daniel: in this analogy? Yes. Okay. Just

Heidi: checking.

Daniel: You've got like, just enough, therapy to be dangerous. That's, that's the Got it. That I'm trying to,

Heidi: right,

Daniel: yeah.

Heidi: Right. Exactly.

So we got married, ignored all the red flags. I had cold feet for a year leading up to it, and I was very.

Open about that. And my soon to be husband was like, oh yeah, that's normal, that's fine. And I was like, no, but like I really think this might be a really bad idea. And he was like, no, it's all good. That's fine. spoiler alert. It was a bad idea.

Laurel: Oh my God.

Heidi: so we got married and because I am an open book, I very quickly was like, I am deeply unhappy.

Laurel: Yeah.

Heidi: I feel very lonely. My needs aren't getting met. And so he was like, well, we know some people who are open. Why don't we open our relationship?

Laurel: Hmm.

Heidi: Seemed like such a good idea. And to be fair, it actually was a good idea. Yeah. Because it wasn't a good idea for the marriage. Right, right. But it was a good idea for me.

Nichole: Yeah. Yeah.

Heidi: So I very quickly discovered oh, okay. So this is what it feels like to be in relationship with folks who I feel seen by and I feel connected to, and I feel like my, you know, like I am getting some relational needs met. And so I left that marriage. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It lasted. Just over a year. Oh, hmm.

13 months I wanna say. Okay. Wow. Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Daniel: I feel like this is the ideal, pure form of what people are afraid of. Yes. In opening up marriages. Right? Like, what if they meet someone that they like more than me? Or what if they realize I suck?

Heidi: Yeah, yeah.

Daniel: Yeah. And you kind of realized, I mean, I'm not saying that your, your husband at the time sucked, but

Heidi: Right.

Daniel: The relationship sucked.

Heidi: Yeah.

Daniel: You know, and opening your relationship showed you that.

Heidi: I mean, to be fair, I knew it sucked already. Right.

Nichole: I mean, how did he do with opening up,

Heidi: he was, tried and true, like people pleaser. So he was like, yep, I'm on board. This is great. We're doing this. And if I had been like, no, I don't like this, I wanna be monogamous, he would be like, absolutely.

100% monogamous. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So he was along because that was kind of his way.

Clip: Right.

Heidi: what I tell people, I am always hesitant to share my origin story because to your point, Daniel, it is like confirming people's worst fear, but we were already unhappy, right? Yeah. Yeah. And like the solution to being unhappy is not to open your relationship, right?

Laurel: Correct.

Heidi: So I'm a cautionary tale.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Heidi: And I would say that opening in some ways actually bought us a little time.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Heidi: Because it allowed me to be a little more generous and Yeah. Kind because I wasn't so resentful anymore.

Nichole: Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Heidi: I, I'm not in touch with him, anymore. Not for any other reason than it turns out we had literally nothing in common.

Laurel: Right. Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah.

Heidi: That's

Nichole: boring. Yeah. No bad,

Heidi: no bad blood. Just like not, uh,

Nichole: yeah, she's not an interesting person.

Heidi: Wow. Sorry. You're really this person, you're really trying to, trying to get me in trouble here.

I

Laurel: get it. Heidi didn't say it. Nicole said it

Heidi: for the record. Said,

Laurel: yeah. What,

Daniel: what, what our listeners may not know is that we, we edited out the part where Heidi said that he was quote dumber than a bag of bricks.

Heidi: Dammit, you're all against me.

Laurel: No one's ever gonna come on our show ever again.

Heidi: Well, this was more than a decade ago. Oh, yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. It was quite some time ago. Yeah. So

Daniel: I'm sure he is developed some interests since then.

Heidi: Yes, I am sure. Maybe the world is vast.

the thing that I also hate about my origin story is that, , I think that so many people use polyamory as like a, a soft exit or an off-ramp to a relationship, which. You know, people, people are gonna do what they're gonna do. But what I dislike about that is that then people see that and they're like, aha.

See, polyamory ruins relationships. Right? And it's like, no, the relationship was ruined when polyamory got there and someone seized on polyamory

Laurel: as a soft exit. Yeah. Yes. Relationships Ruin themselves. Thank you very much. So true.

Nichole: Yes,

Laurel: they do.

Daniel: Nobody's tallying all the monogamous relationships that

Laurel: that's what

Daniel: I, yeah.

And, and blaming monogamy.

Laurel: Yeah, that's true.

Heidi: Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah. And you can have a healthy relationship. It, the relationship structure does not dictate the health of the relationship. Yes. It's the people who are in it, and the people who are willing to put in the work of communication and transparency and honesty and,

Heidi: and being honest about if someone's compatible before you decide to settle down with them.

Laurel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. so from that point on, like after you and your ex opened up

Heidi: mm-hmm.

Laurel: Um, you just remained. Open or

Heidi: polyamorous? I did from that point

Laurel: forward,

Heidi: I did, and it was all that it, the mess continued. The mess was not over. Mm-hmm. That wasn't actually the messiest part. Oh, whoa.

Laurel: Fun.

Heidi: Yeah. So my first probably like, Ooh, one to three years, what is time? Yeah. But I was just a mess. Like I wanted to do it. Mm-hmm. It made so much sense for me in my brain and philosophically, and my nervous system could not get on board. Mm. Yeah. And so I was just like all the tropes, I was like, anxious, I was spinning out on worst case scenarios.

I, you know, engaged in a lot of bad behavior and I have, you know, a whole heap of compassion for myself now. But, in some ways that was what inspired me all these years later to then wanna work with folks who are primarily entering or struggling.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Heidi: Because I'm like, oh, I've been there. I can connect. I have a ton of compassion. And I have developed both personally and then professionally for my clients. A lot of, tools and skills and strategies to help folks work through it so that the time that they go through that can be much more compressed than mine.

Yeah. Yeah. It's not gonna be years for them. Probably more like months.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: So what are some of the like tools and techniques that you use to get people from panic mode poly to as your, uh, your branding and your handle might say steady polyamory.

Heidi: Yes. Yes. Thank you. Thanks for plugging that right there. Appreciate that. That was very smooth. So I think, yeah, the first thing is focusing on the nervous system because I think a lot of people want to jump into like the cognitive stuff. Mm-hmm. How do I think about this differently? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What do I do differently? Yeah. And you know, we can't access any of that while our nervous system is kicked up.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Heidi: You know, like those are higher functions. Yeah. That when we're in e an emergency state, we don't have access to, even if you are calm in a moment and you learn it, as soon as you get kicked back into nervous system activation, you don't have access to that anymore. Yeah. Interesting. And that's not anybody's fault, it's just biology, you know, like like our blood flow stops flowing to the parts of our brain that we can use for critical thinking.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And impulse control and cause and effect and. Empathy even, and communication. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. So what I really emphasize is like, okay, before we can do any of that, we have to like tune into what does it feel like when you're in that state. Mm-hmm. What are the warning signs that you're getting there?

Yeah. I have a whole toolbox of strategies. Let's see which ones work for you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. To help bring your, you know, nervous system back down to baseline. Because until we do that, I could give you all the tools in the world. You, you're not gonna be able to use them.

Nichole: I feel like that's an entire piece of the puzzle that like books

Laurel: mm-hmm.

Nichole: Like kind of skip over. Yep. Right? Yeah, totally. Totally. Like the, the physical sensations, , that people go through when they're, feeling these very deep feelings and it disregulates their nervous system.

Daniel: Yeah, baby. That's , why you love it when I remind you to breathe?

Nichole: That's why I love it.

Heidi: Love it

Nichole: so

Heidi: much. Sounds like that goes over really well.

Daniel: Yeah, that's really helpful. Uhhuh.

Heidi: Yeah. Do you also tell her to calm down?

Daniel: No. No. I say calm the fuck down up.

Heidi: Much more helpful. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's interesting when We're in that nervous system activation state, our body is responding to a perceived threat. Yeah. And like there is no room for compersion when we're in mm-hmm. Threat mode.

Nichole: Yeah.

Heidi: Yeah. Like they, yeah.

The two can't coexist.

Nichole: Right. And you can't necessarily. Latch onto that attitudinal conversion of like, well this aligns with my values. Yeah. Right, right. Like you can't think that far ahead. No. When you're dysregulated.

Daniel: And I feel like the relationship.

Might be a trigger for those feelings. Mm-hmm. But most people who tend to go into, you know, their flights, their, fights, their freezes, you're in a room full of people with anxiety disorders here. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So

Heidi: could you tell

Daniel: Yeah. We don't, we don't let anybody in without, you know, some history of anxiety disorder.

Heidi: are you outing me right now?

Daniel: Yes. I'm, yes. I'm

Heidi: Okay. Cool. Just checking.

Daniel: listeners know that we edited out the part where Heidi is saying that she's just constantly in a state of panic.

Heidi: Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: it's not like always coming from the relationship I may have an anxiety disorder and it makes so much sense that you say that you have to work on that first because it's not about working on the relationship.

Heidi: Right. Yeah.

Daniel: It's about working on your tendencies to activate. Yeah. And it could have very little to do with what's really going on in the relationship to my experience.

Heidi: Yeah. I mean it's, so it's, uh, there's a couple things you said, like one is like it's perceived threat, right?

So it's not necessarily real threat, but it's the perception of threat. Yeah. And so we're seeing it through a lens and also Yeah. Tons of things in life. Dysregulate us. I mean, anyone with a nervous system gets dysregulated sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Like that is just a consequence of being alive. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And so, you know, to that point, I think we all, regardless of relationship structure, like the more we can tune in to the nervous system, the better because Yeah. You know, things with my family, things with work, things with traffic, anything can mm-hmm. Dysregulate. Us and like the, the better we are at noticing when that's happening and then accessing the skills to bring us back down, then we can actually, you know, not do or say things we later regret.

Yes. I always like to put it, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Interesting.

Laurel: it's really interesting to me as someone who like loves to over intellectualize everything. Mm-hmm. And I think a common experience, and one you're kind of describing about yourself, Heidi is like a lot of people come to polyamory because it's super aligns with like their worldview and values.

Nichole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Laurel: And that is a very like, heady kind of space to be in. Yeah. And then to confront the sort of, embodied like physical reality of it is a totally different thing. And like that Dissonance that occurs can be like, so upsetting.

Heidi: Yeah.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. And, and upsetting in like a really, fundamental way because you're suddenly like not able to embody your values.

Heidi: Mm-hmm.

Laurel: And then you're like, I'm having a fucking crisis because I can't be the person I want to be. And that is like, like.

in my like armchair psychology kind of ways. Like, I think like the deepest kind of shame

Heidi: Yeah. Yeah.

Laurel: Is like, not, like not being able to be the person you think you are or hope you are. I think you really do need like a therapeutic relationship

Clip: mm-hmm.

Laurel: To overcome that kind of stuff.

Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Laurel: But so everybody go see Heidi, but,

Daniel: but hashtag not all therapists

Heidi: Mm.

Daniel: Yes. are helpful.

Heidi: This is true. Yeah.

Daniel: I had the experience in my life of like the first 15 years of therapy that I did, didn't really allow me to get to the core of what was going on with me because it it was very heady.

Clip: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: It was, story-based gestalt kind of stuff like I have OCD.

it was like the machine was broken.

Heidi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: It wasn't like there was something wrong with my belief system or that I didn't understand why my trauma was creating these patterns.

Clip: Right.

Daniel: It was like I needed to actually get a therapist who was going to get under the hood and start working with my somatic and, emotional reactions.

Mm-hmm. Started doing ERP and shit. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So like, I'm like, that's, that's the ultimate example of like, this has nothing to do with ideas really whatsoever. Yeah. Just working with, panic response. Yeah. Over and over again.

Heidi: Yeah.

Daniel: And that's all that really helped. Mm-hmm. Like it's a very specific type of, anxiety disorder, but all anxiety disorders.

I feel like, like if you don't meet the kind of fear where it lives.

Heidi: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: You don't get anywhere if you try and. You

Heidi: Yeah, yeah.

Daniel: Outthink it.

Heidi: Absolutely. Yeah. And to Laurel's point, like so many of the people who find me are dealing with so much shame Yeah. By the time they get to me. Mm-hmm.

You know, for all of those reasons. Like, I've read all the books, why can't I figure it out? Yeah. Why can't I align with my values? I know this makes sense to me. Why am I like in crisis all the time? Then of course, before they find me, they find our polyamory. And that just makes the shame 100 times worse.

Oh

Nichole: my God. Yes.

Heidi: Yes. Yep. We talk about it all the time. Yep. Mm-hmm.

Nichole: For Stuss, the sub Reddit on, , polyamory is our polyamory, and we three go on there for funsies. Mm-hmm. Just to like see what the drama is.

Heidi: Uhhuh, you

Nichole: know, do a little digging.

Daniel: We, we have a, we have a segment called, um, monogamy.

Are You Okay?

Heidi: Uhhuh Uhhuh,

Daniel: where we, we frequently go to the monogamy subreddit, which is even more fucked up than the polyamory subreddit.

Heidi: I've, I've listened to that segment. That's a fun one. That's a really fun one. Thank you.

Daniel: But here, you talk about this, I'm wondering whether we should eventually like, create a segment that is also polyamory.

Are you okay? Some

Laurel: Dude, sometimes I think about it. I look at that shit and like mm-hmm. The, the insane kind of like advice and weird judgment and the digging through people's Reddit history that those people go through. It is like.

Heidi: Yeah. And it's just like the polyamory police. Yes. It's like people who wanna come on and tell you all the ways you're doing it wrong and all the ways you're unethical, and for someone who's new, it's like such a, a way to scare people away or just make them feel like absolute garbage.

Yeah. And have them shame spiral.

Nichole: Yes. Yep. And

polyamory, Reddit does not help with this myth that like, polyamory is more evolved.

Heidi: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: The monogamy, I mean, we just had, if you ought weigh on, and he was talking about how we are not selling ourselves very well when it comes not doing good on the recruiting when it comes to getting people to join our cause.

Heidi: If we were a cult, we'd be a very bad cult.

Nichole: Yes. Yeah.

Heidi: Yeah.

Daniel: But you know what's a really good cult?

Laurel: What.

Daniel: Poly amateur hour.

Laurel: Yeah. Join our

Daniel: good cult. Join. Join our Cult because it's also a place that you can, send in your questions, problems, and we are like, at least. 13% better than polyamory, Reddit.

Heidi: I mean, I like to think I bring up your percentage by maybe two percentage points.

Nichole: Oh, no. Yeah. When you're here, yes. Yeah. We're 100% better. Oh,

Heidi: yes.

Nichole: Thank

Heidi: you.

Daniel: So, poly amateur hour. Not as bad as the cesspool of the internet.

Laurel: Yeah.

Yeah.

Daniel: Send us a question as did this, stu, for our segment. Ask the amateurs

Heidi: Amazing.

Laurel: Wow. And, and we actually have a professional here, so

Nichole: yeah. If you send in your questions to Poly Amateur hour@gmail.com or anonymously at our website@polyamateurhour.com, you might get lucky and have a professional answer your question.

Laurel: There's a slight chance it's a chance. It Chance could be a professional or it could be a comedian. Who knows.

Nichole: Don't you wanna play that roulette?

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Or

Laurel: right. Yeah.

Nichole: So what's the question?

Laurel: I'm feeling self-conscious about initiating sex with my partner. We don't live together, but we are enmeshed and spend relatively long stretches of time together and have a very physical, cuddly, kissy relationship. We've been together for several years, and both have other partners. I struggle in transitioning that physical affection with this partner into sexual attention.

At times, I feel like I will be interrupting their daily flow, or I'm unsure about their mood. I'm typically the one doing the initiating, and oftentimes it just ends up with me asking to have sex out right now. When in the past there was more of a natural transition. Based on past conversations on the topic, it seems like my partner feels like I'm overthinking it, but I'm having a hard time getting back to those natural transitions we both used to enjoy while feeling like they're actually into it.

And for context, we both have fairly reactive libidos, as in we both tend to get turned on as a response to stimuli rather than just existing horny. Most of the time.

Daniel (2): This is like a Portland traffic intersection where they're just both, they're like, mm-hmm. Who's gonna go? Who's gonna go?

Laurel: This is an interesting one. 'cause I like it has been less of an issue for me now, I think especially in the height of super horny perimenopause.

Clip: Mm-hmm.

Laurel: But I remember in my marriage like feeling this like impasse a lot even some other more recent relationships I've had where I'm like, I'm horny, but I'm not sure if you are horny.

And I'm like trying to put it out there, but I can't tell if it's being received and like having a hard time making that leap. Daniel's smiling because he's like, oh, you just stick your crotch in my face when you're horny.

And that's how we transition.

Daniel: We have a very special specific transition, we call it the cantilever.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Where she just kind of like gets in kind of a semi headstand and then. Like,

Laurel: sounds so weird. I just roll around a lot.

'cause I also like acrobatics and shit, so I'm also just like rolling around and stretching in weird ways. And then sometimes Daniel's in the way, and if he gets in the way, it's his own fault.

Heidi: If he gets in the way, it's Oops,

Laurel: sex. Oops, sex. Oops,

Heidi: oops.

Nichole: All sex.

Nichole: So I have some logistical questions. So I think like, yes, they're enmeshed with this partner and they have other partners. They're seeing each other at long stretches of time, which to me sounds like they also go long stretches where they're not seeing each other.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: And that this person is either staying with this person in their house and like, yeah, that might be a disruption to their daily life, just having this person there. Right. So the rhythms of having sex every time you go to visit this person or stay with this person it's already a disruption. And then I don't know if sex is being received as like a further disruption, but there isn't a rhythm that you can really establish with somebody when you

Laurel: Yeah. When you're seeing them. Like intermittently

Nichole: or, yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: Oh, professional therapist.

Heidi: Oh. Okay.

Daniel: What would you think if this person came to you?

Heidi: I had a couple different thoughts from a couple different angles on this. One is, , I wanna know, like you're asking us, I'm including me and the Yeah.

And the crew because I'm here today. You're asking us how you should do this. Like, have you asked your partner, have you said mm-hmm. Hey, like. How would you like me to initiate sex? If I'm horny, and I don't know if you're horny or not, what would be the best way that I could initiate or let you know or clue you in?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, I think that's a great conversation to have.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Heidi: Like, I think you could learn a lot and you could explore together. I also think if two people both have a more responsive libido rather than a horny all the time. Yeah. Libido.

Clip: Mm-hmm.

Heidi: Um. Then kind of coming up with together, what is the, the stimuli we're going to respond to, right?

Mm-hmm. So if it's like, oh, neither of us feel horny, but like maybe we're both like, yeah, like we'd like to be horny.

Laurel: Yeah.

Heidi: So like, do you watch porn together? Do you listen to erotica or read erotica to each other? What is like, if neither of you are going to be the external force, then yeah. Coming up with some, a different one.

And so maybe the initiation then could be like, Hey, do you want to read from that erotica book we have? Mm-hmm. Do you wanna read some hockey smut? You know? Yes. What? Uh, And then the other thing is like, yeah, of course it was like spontaneous and like went with the flow and rhythm when you first got together.

Yeah. 'cause everyone was full of horniness in NRE. Yeah. Like, yeah. You know. Sometimes when you've been together a long time, like yeah, you gotta just be like, Hey, do you wanna have sex? Or let's put sex on the calendar so we make sure it happens or whatever. It's not so go with the flow anymore in a long-term relationship.

Daniel: Yeah. That was my initial thought is like having this hesitancy to like let go of the idea of the natural transition.

Heidi: Yes. Yeah.

Daniel: Is something that I think you just have to get over. Like one, if you are having a long-term, relationship, there's a certain point at which you just have to have those conversations and even more so eventually you start have to, to schedule stuff.

Clip: Mm-hmm.

Daniel (2): Yeah. You know, just working around people's lives and when they need to be focused on other things. it reminds me of like when people used to voice concern around how they feel like consent conversations or STI conversations would take them out of the mood or in the natural transition.

Mm-hmm. Oh, is it not gonna be as hot? if we have to stop and like, be like, Hey, can I do this, this, and this? And hey, like, I have this, this, and this. Yeah. So I think that it's something that's good to learn, to embrace logistical conversations and somehow eroticizing mm-hmm.

Logistical conversations. Mm-hmm. It can be quite erotic to, to discuss what it is that you want to do or

Laurel: Yeah. scheduling sex is it's sort of a paradox because like you think it's gonna make things really unsexy.

because I do remember, like, in my marriage too, like years ago like feeling pressure to have sex in that, like crushing my libido.

Heidi: Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Laurel: and then being worried and consumed by this idea that like scheduling, it would just be more pressure and crush my libido even more. But what I've like found out, like in the practice of doing it, is that it actually takes so much pressure off.

Clip: Hmm.

Laurel: Because one I got to know that like I wasn't actually like responsible for getting horny at any other time mm-hmm.

Than that point in time.

Nichole: and scheduling sex does not necessarily negate.

Spontaneous sex, right? Yeah. Right. Like mm-hmm. Daniel and I pretty much have like a set date night, one night a week. Right. but we still balance it with spontaneous sex all the time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's like, just kind of wham bam. Thank you, ma'am. You know? Mm-hmm. I'm cooking in the kitchen. I have 10 minutes before the, was

Daniel: I supposed to thank you.

Nichole: Yeah. You didn't thank me.

Daniel: Rude. Very rude.

Nichole: So rude.

Heidi: Yeah. Well, and I think that's where the, like how do you like to have sex initiated comes in because then it's like, if you wanna have spontaneous sex, you're not like, oh, what do I do? I don't know if the thing I wanna do is sexy or not sexy, or is gonna irritate them or turn them on.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: as a cis man for me, there's some like guilt that's a little bit bundled up with having to ask, you know?

Mm-hmm. There's some like, insecurity, like I think we're conditioned to a certain extent

Laurel: I, I would counter that as anybody having sex with women. because I feel that like specifically with women and this is like sexist in its own way, it comes from a place of like wanting to be like very cautious and considerate of like women's autonomy and like not feeling, coercion or pressure and I don't feel that same

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: Restriction with men that I sleep with.

Nichole: Fascinating.

Laurel: Yeah. I think it's like a response to being slightly aware of like the experience of women in the world.

Daniel: Yeah. But also it's, , it's like n negating the thought that they might be, wanting you Yes, totally too. Totally. Totally. Like when you're doing this, you are not doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. Yes. Yeah. Because you would, I think from what you have told me, you would like. People

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: including women, to take the first move with you

Laurel: Yeah. I mean, there's plenty of jokes about it and like, by queer lesbian communities of like, you know, have we been dating for three years or have we just been friends? Like mm-hmm.

Everyone's like unclear about it. because sometimes, yeah, like the sexual aspect of the relationship can move at a glacial pace because everyone's afraid.

. Like we've come to a place where I think we've accepted, like Yeah. To like maintain healthy relationships. We have to, continually think about how we like, relate with one another.

But we, I feel like sex is still kind of a taboo . Like it should just be easy.

Heidi: Yeah. Like it should just naturally happen. Yeah. And if it doesn't, there's something wrong with me or there's something wrong with us.

Laurel: Yes.

Heidi: Which is interesting because like sex brings up our most intimate, deepest stuff sometimes.

Yeah. You know, like it can bring up so much like deep vulnerabilities, right? Mm-hmm. And so like, of course it's gonna like bring up the muck and like, you know, bring it to the surface and then we have to like deal with it in our most intimate relationships. Yeah. Like, you know, once you think about it, it's like, yeah, of course, of course it's gonna bring up all this, right.

Of course. It's gonna get complicated. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: And we wouldn't have it any other way

Laurel: really.

Daniel: Yeah, I've gone on about this before that like , , if I have a type, it is complicated. Like that's the kind of like yeah. Relationship that I like. I like talking about things I like sex that goes in a lot of, different and surprising directions.

uh, I like sex bits.

Laurel: Are, are you writing a personal ad right

Daniel: now? Yes. Yes. If

Laurel: anyone's interested,

Daniel: write into poly amateur hour@gmail.com. Um,

Nichole: any final thoughts? Um.

Daniel: I'm sorry for everything I've done.

Laurel: Then in You're wrong.

Nichole: I guess final thoughts on this question, not

Daniel: final

Nichole: thoughts in

Daniel: Okay.

Heidi: Life. Stoping, we're not broken up up yet.

Daniel: I

Heidi: you're not dead to me.

Daniel: I leave my belongings to Heidi.

Heidi: Ooh. I was gonna say the complicated people in your life. Yeah. Yes. Then you outed me again. Thank you. Thank you.

Laurel: thank you so much, Heidi. Can you tell our audience, , how they can discover more about.

your services and self. Yes,

Heidi: absolutely. It's very easy. It's, as Daniel said, steady polyamory. So my website is steady polyamory.com and I'm on Instagram at steady polyamory.

I'm about to launch a bunch of like, kind of standalone educational workshops. Ooh. And I am also, I've had in the past, my most favorite thing is like a little kind of, support group where people can come in, talk about their struggles, they get coaching from me. They, , can, support one another and I'm gonna.

Relaunch that probably the second half of the year, and I'm really excited for that. That's, that's like juicy, that one. Yeah.

Laurel: So good. That's fun. Cool. Is that a, is that a local Portland thing or?

Heidi: No, it's, it's online. Ah, ah, cool. Okay. So

Laurel: nice.

Heidi: As long as you have a time zone that can match with the Pacific Northwest, then

Daniel: listen up Iceland.

Heidi: And I love having people from Australia. 'cause I'm always like, what's it like in the future? I just, I'm still tickled by the international dateline and being on the other side of it.

Daniel: Do you mean, do you mean the future? Just because I think that they've, had a woman president. Oh my

Heidi: god. Ouch.

Laurel: And they got rid of their guns.