Nichole: Did you just press record and walk away?

Laurel: What is he doing?

Nichole: Is this how he quits?

Laurel: Is that we never see him again? He's had enough of our shit. It was one knowing glance too many.

Nichole: Babe? You coming back?

Nichole: Oh.

Laurel: Oh. I'm peeing. I am peeing here

Nichole: had the thought today that if I ever owned my own dog grooming business or, dog sitting business-

Laurel: Mm-hmm ...

Nichole: or, like, doggy daycare-

Laurel: Mm-hmm ...

Nichole: when it was time for somebody to come pick up their dog, I would call them and go, " Come and get your pup." And that's been stuck in my head all day.

Daniel: You'd be like the, uh, the receptionist on Moonlighting who just answers the phone with rhymes- Yes ... all the time. Maybe you should give that to Langdon. You should just write him an entire backlog of, funny things to say on the phone and then demand that he use them.

Nichole: All the times he makes phone calls about- Langdon is our dog

Daniel: I think the dogs think that he is a dog.

Nichole: I think he's also incredibly complimentary to us about how we've raised our dogs, and I find that very validating.

Laurel: Mm,

Daniel: they have really, really grown up and matured. Now they're at marriageable age and- Dashell, you are a man now

Laurel: How do you know for dogs that they've become men?

Nichole: They have to do their bark mitzvah.

Laurel: Ba-dum-bum-tss.

Daniel: Were you like this before we met?

Nichole: Oh, that sounds accusatory.

Daniel: Accusatory of me? I just wanna know how much damage I've done.

Nichole: I think I've become funnier- Aw ... since knowing you.

Daniel: I mean, or your, your standards for jokes have just lowered to the point where you're now punning with the, the lowest of us.

Nichole: That was, that was like a, an aneurysm that I can't believe- ... that I made that joke.

Daniel: Yeah, it's like when people talk about, channeling the divine in their art, it's just like you were- Yeah ... you were possessed by the spirit.

Laurel: Welcome to PolyAmateur Hour.

Nichole: I'm Nicole.

Daniel: I am Daniel.

Laurel: And I'm Laurel.

Nichole: I liked that steal that you

Laurel: did. Yeah. Daniel. Thank you. I saw him warming up- Yeah ... taking a breath in.

Daniel: But you, intro blocked me.

Laurel: Mm-mm.

Daniel: Talk block.

Laurel: Sometimes I just don't want you to have it.

Nichole: Hot. Well, one of your thing- Okay.

Daniel: Forgive us if we're a little extra giddy and weird today.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: This is our episode 100.

Nichole: That's stupid.

Laurel: That's crazy. We've done this 100 times. I-

Nichole: You've made-

Laurel: Yeah

Nichole: more than 100 songs.

Laurel: Whoa. That's crazy.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: I mean, I'm the most prolific musical artist now in

Laurel: the Guinness Book of World Records.

Daniel: Th- this is not true. There are people who just make a living, writing whatever song you could think of to just show up in search results. Like, there's this one guy who does... Like, it's the same song, but each one is, like, about a different celebrity. So if you, like, search for, like, Jon Hamm, he's just singing Jon Hamm over and over again.

Nichole: What? What?

Daniel: Yeah. There's a whole, school of people who do this, it's just, like, original musical slop for Spotify. Like, people search for things-

Nichole: Uh-huh ...

Daniel: and then you just show up, thousands of times per day.

Nichole: Does he end all of his songs with the word feet? Because when you search a celebrity, the first auto-fill Oh. In Google is feet

Daniel: honestly, the one person that I at least read about who does this, I think there's mental illness involved. Like, if you, if this is your, like, career path- ...

Nichole: Speaking of mental illness- ... and feet.

Laurel: Hmm.

Nichole: Ah. Did you guys have this, did you ever live on campus-

Laurel: Yeah ...

Nichole: during college?

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: In col- in my freshman year of college- Uh-huh ... there was a guy who was going around to where he knew women lived- Mm-hmm ... in the dorms, and asking to measure their feet for a project, quote-unquote. And we received emails from- Hmm ... the residential advisor that was like, "Hey, guys."

Laurel: Don't let this man measure your feet.

Nichole: Yes. And I imagined once this happened, once I got this email, I imagined that there was some version of this on every single college campus- ... and that this was just a rite of passage

Laurel: So I'm gonna say surprisingly no, because it didn't happen to me, , but also, like, you know, I went to school in, like, Boston, and so what a mecca of people to do this to. There are so many colleges there-

Nichole: Yes ...

Laurel: that you could've probably gotten away with it for a little while, because you could have just, like, gone from school dorm to school dorm.

Nichole: Do you ever play, when you say, "I went to college in Boston," do you ever play off, like, " Yeah, that one."

Laurel: if I wanted to do that, I'd be like, "Oh, I went to college in Cambridge."

Nichole: Ah,

Daniel: do you think that the Ivy League feet are more desirable?

Nichole: Yes.

Laurel: Possibly No.

Daniel: On

Nichole: foot- No ... on Footbook or whatever They just paid way more- On Footbook ... for to be there.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Is that a foot fetish site? Footbook? Footbook

Nichole: has to exist. It has to exist.

Laurel: I'm so tempted to look right now.

Nichole: Okay, she's gonna do it.

Daniel: She's doing it. She's going in. Typing sound effect. Typing sound effect. Typing sound effect.

Nichole: Is it trying to get us to buy this domain?

Laurel: Yeah. But it s- shows related pages. World Cup soccer discount, best shoes for elderly women. I, there's a Dr. Seuss book.

Nichole: Called Footbook?

Laurel: Yeah, The Footbook.

Daniel: Wow, I did not know he was so fucking kinky.

Laurel: and you can buy it on christianbook.com.

Nichole: Huh.

Daniel: I mean, to be honest, I knew Jesus was that kinky because of the whole foot washing thing.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: Obviously.

Nichole: Well, speaking of your songs, Daniel

Daniel: Do you want me to play one right now?

Nichole: No. Um-

Laurel: Uh, no. That would be a no.

Nichole: That would be a no. I'm wondering if we could do, like, a quick DM Sliders.

Laurel: Yeah, I was thinking that too.

Nichole: Yeah. DM Sliders is the segment where we, read your, messages that you send to us, either in the inbox at polyamateurhour@gmail.com, oh, you can submit a DM Sliders, on our website at polyamateurhour.com. We have a whole new form.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Also, if you send us a small hamburger, we will review it.

Laurel: Absolutely.

Nichole: Yep.

Laurel: we got this little ditty, in the mailbox, and it says, " Hi, cuties."

Nichole: Aw.

Laurel: Hi. Hi.

Nichole: They're,

Daniel: they're talking to you too.

Nichole: No.

Laurel: I don't know- Mm ... 'cause it says, "Is there anywhere to stream the songs from the podcast? I love Daniel's eccentric musical sense, and I'd totally pay a couple of bucks on Bandcamp for an album with," examples, "the Billingsley remix, the Hater of Dogs song, and other hits."

Daniel: What a good selection.

Laurel: That is a great selection. Yeah. What a

Daniel: great selection.

Nichole: I was, I was thinking about this- Mm-hmm ... as far as how we could do this because like we just mentioned, you have written more than 100. songs at this point.

Daniel: I kinda wanna make them into genre records too, though. So it's like the Polyamature Hour rap album.

Nichole: Ooh. Right. Right, right, right, right.

Daniel: Or the like Polyamature Hour jazz album that's like a lot of your stuff, Nicole- Mm-hmm ... and some of the things that like Laurel has chanted.

Nichole: I think, I think this is something we can do. Yeah. We do have to... We need a little bit of time to organize it- and publish it- did it say who submitted that? Doo,

Laurel: From Sage.

Nichole: Sage, thank you so much for your DM, and for the idea.

Daniel: This being our 100th episode, shall we also just, like, take those requests too? All right, you guys, here we go. Hater of Dogs How the fuck did we convince Multiamory to come on this podcast?

Nichole: Good question. We did not offer them semi-nudes.

Laurel: That's true, yeah. They should have held out longer.

Daniel: Multiamory, the people who turned Laurel poly.

Laurel: Yes, it was it was their fault. They brought this chaos upon the community.

Nichole: We all know that you know who Multiamory is. It's a poly podcast. It's been around for over a decade now-

Daniel: Yeah ...

Nichole: or almost a decade.

Daniel: Thereabouts.

Nichole: and they have incredible episodes, incredible guests. They are well-researched. They are well-spoken. Mm-hmm. They are the opposite of , this podcast.

Daniel: Thank God they didn't do their research about us.

Nichole: and we were delighted, surprised, scared, and- Turned on ... so grateful- ... that they chose to spend some time with us today.

Laurel: Yes. Yes.

Daniel: we are, incredibly flattered that they deigned to respond to our baiting- ... song that we made.

Laurel: Our weird beef baiting.

Daniel: Where we created...

Laurel: Beef baiting. Ew.

Daniel: Ah. Where we created a, a rap beef with Multiamory. They're like, "We will come on the podcast, but we're not gonna rap."

Laurel: Yeah. Yep.

Daniel: We will sing. And it turns out that, oh, my God, they were chaos Muppets all along.

Laurel: Secretly, deep down inside.

Daniel: They sing. They dance. They swear. They're gonna do some crazy ass shit you've never s- this is this is the Multiamory you've never seen before. la,

Nichole: la, la, la. Let's get ready to rumble. I really wanted to say that.

Dedeker: that's so cool. You're all in the same room. Yeah. Yeah. Remember when we used to do that?

Jase: Yeah.

Nichole: Aw.

Dedeker: When we used to have the geographical proximity to do such things.

Nichole: Where

Dedeker: was that? if it, we were talking about a random one-off, it was probably the last time all three of us were in Hong Kong-

Nichole: Mm ...

Dedeker: a couple years back.

Daniel: Are, is it confusing when you're all in the same room again together? Because, like, you're- ... you're just waiting for somebody's head to get much bigger when they're talking.

Nichole: Why were you in Hong Kong at the same time?

Dedeker: Well, I'll let Emily explain that one.

Emily: so Back in 2018. I started working for Hong Kong Disneyland and Shanghai Disneyland. Oh. So I just, it, I'm a Christmas caroler over there during their, like, winter season. But- ... uh, yeah, Jason Dettinger, I've seen them both in Hong Kong and then also, like, been over to their home in Japan. Hong Kong's d- to me at this point kind of like a home away from home. but it is, becoming increasingly difficult to like, be away from my partner and be away from- Mm ... New York and stuff every year. Yeah. So I don't know if I'll do it again this year, but we'll see.

Jase: And they Work them harder every year, so-

Emily: Yeah ... there's that part ... and that's- Yeah, Disney- And that is rough ... extracts

Dedeker: more and more, more and more each year.

Emily: I was the shell of a human- Yeah ... by the end of it last year. No. So we'll see. Yeah. Yeah. Do they

Daniel: ever dress you up as a princess, or are you part of-

Emily: No.

Daniel: No.

Emily: No- nobody's gonna have maybe a princess with this voice. There's no way. Um, maybe an evil stepmother or something. Like, I would probably be great as that. Mm. Um-

Daniel: I love your voice. Sort of like a Dickensian princess. Yeah. I love your voice. I'm- Thank you ... when I'm listening to the podcast, I'm just wa- "When is Emily gonna, when is

Emily: Emily gonna talk?"

Daniel: Yeah. Thank you. I, it's like a, it's like a great classic sonorous NPR voice. Like, it's- Oh ... you

Emily: know? I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. Good. It's come in handy in my life for sure,

Nichole: I want you to deliver- It was good ... my fresh air.

Emily: Sure. I

Daniel: did. Maybe you can, maybe you can voice coach me to be less chirpy.

Nichole: Oh, babe.

Emily: Chirpy. That's- Chirpy ... I think you, I think you have a lovely voice. ... good feedback. Interesting. Well, thank you. Yeah, I love it. No, I mean- Thank you. Thank you ... all of us like, have our own vocal affectations and stuff. Like, I edit our show, and so I'm very aware of mine and Honestly, i'm the hardest to edit of the three of us, so- Really? ... no, I just- You think so? Huh. And I do all the

Dedeker: plosives

Emily: you do a lot of plosives and I can't, I can't do anything about it, which sucks. So.

Daniel: There's one- Yeah ... on every podcast, I swear.

Emily: Yeah, who's the plosiver in your group? Apparently it's Laurel. Yeah. Is it Laurel? Yeah. Yeah.

Laurel: What?

Emily: Yeah.

Laurel: I don't know what you're talking about.

Daniel: Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. Laurel has the like, the kind of random position to the microphone. But, you know, she's an artist so we just gotta like let her roll. Mm. Let her roll. 'Cause sometimes she's like really close, and then sometimes she's like, kinda- I can't

Laurel: be contained ...

Daniel: cruising around backstage.

Dedeker: See, the thing that we learned- Mm ... very early on in the podcast is, 'cause... So I'm the plosiver, and so Jace was always constantly like, "Okay, move your mic here. Okay, try moving it up here. Okay, no, put it down here. Try putting it down here." Yeah. And we cannot find I've tried.

Jase: She just has a magic

Dedeker: plosive face- I can't

Jase: do it ... which just

Emily: plosives in all directions. And also like where, like where- ... it's gonna happen regardless.

Daniel: Have you tried the mic just directly behind your head?

Dedeker: We have not tried, we've not tried that one yet. Maybe that's the solution, yeah. That could be the solution. Maybe I need to do- Amazing ... one of those, like, musical theater, like strap it, like, underneath my bangs. Oh. Like a little tiny- Oh, that's a good

Emily: idea. Yeah.

Dedeker: Ooh. Lav up here. Yeah.

Jase: I think you would manage to plosive it anyway

Dedeker: somehow. I'd probably still manage to plosive that somehow.

Emily: But that would be remarkable, yeah.

Laurel: Okay. I have to do shut up. It's my turn.

Daniel: This is the most- Yes, Laurel ... organized that we ever get is- ... when Laurel lays down the law Yes, mistress

Laurel: No, I just have to, I have to do my, gushy and also a little bit of, like, a uncanny world bit right now because, when I first discovered that polyamory was a thing and was hunting around the internet for it, I discovered in the v- ye olde days of polyamory subreddit I discovered Multiamory because I think you guys, like, had commented on a post or something.

Dedeker: Oh, okay. Yeah. I think in the early days we were trying to-

Laurel: Yeah ...

Dedeker: yeah, infiltrate that partic- Get m- more voice-ier ... that particular Reddit cohort,

Laurel: yes. And, and then you thought better of it. Uh- Yeah. Real

Dedeker: quickly,

Laurel: yeah. Real quickly.

Dedeker: Maybe not.

Jase: Like, Reddit's- Yeah ... a terrible place to be,

Laurel: actually. It's a, a very- Yeah very bad, scary place to be. Um, but it worked for me at least in that one moment, because I was like, oh, a reasonable voice? Interesting. Yeah. Oh- Aw ... Multiamory podcast? Um- Uh-huh ... and then I started listening to everything I possibly could, and I forget what year it was, in mid-2010s I think, you guys were doing a, a live tour, and you were in S- Mm-hmm Yeah you were in San Francisco, and I came up to your show in San Francisco. Mm-hmm. That was at a cute little cafe. And- Yeah ... your show- Yeah Oh, wow ... and then the people who were there-

Emily: 2017?

Laurel: Yes. Yeah. That's when that

Emily: was. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Laurel: that was the first other polyamorous people I had ever met.

Emily: Oh,

Laurel: wow. Oh. Really? In real life. That's awesome. Yeah.

Emily: How lovely. You started at the top.

Dedeker: No, I-

Laurel: I start, yeah, I started at the top. It was only downhill from there.

Dedeker: No, I remember that, 'cause yeah, it was 2017. It was the, the Octopus- Yes ... Lounge- Yes ... Octopus Salon- Uh-huh Correct ... in Oakland.

Emily: Yeah.

Dedeker: And that was our very first show of that tour. It was one of our- It was our very first one ... very first live shows, like actual, official live shows. We kinda had done- Mm-hmm ... like a dry run with friends I think a few months before. Um- Oh,

Nichole: God, yeah. The church ...

Dedeker: and I remember we had no idea what to expect. ,, and I remember Jase in particular, you were like really anxious about who's gonna show up, no one's gonna show up. And I remember- ... grabbing Jase and being like, "Jase- Laurel's gonna be there. Oh yeah. One

Emily: person. Yeah, yeah,

Dedeker: yeah. Right. Oh my God. Yeah. We know one person's gonna be there. And maybe it'll just be them, but that's okay. We'll still do it. And fortunately, it wasn't just Laurel Don't worry, Jay, Laurel will sit over there it was, it was more than Laurel. Um- Yeah. It was

Laurel: I was just, just before coming over here, I was with, um, another partner of mine, and also like I told him about that show and how nervous I was coming to see you guys and like meet- Oh ... other polyamorous people. And he was like, Oh, were you nervous, like, you might get, like, recognized or someone, like, from normie life?" And I was like, "Oh, no, I've never cared about that." Oh. I was just nervous- ... 'cause I wanted these people to like me- ... and I wanted to

Daniel: Laurel's journey after that has just been this long, like, super villain creation myth of her just going away and like, "Now I'm going to create my own podcast so they will like me."

Laurel: So this is the funny thing because, , one of the first thoughts I had when we started actually, like, okay, let's be serious and do this, I was like, is the Multiamory crew gonna hate me? Like, are they gonna feel like- Oh ... I'm, like, stealing, like- No. And then- No. And we were like, no, we're on such a different, like-

Emily: Such encroaching,

Jase: yeah ...

Laurel: wavelength. Like, you guys do, like- Uh-huh ... serious, valuable, researched information- ... for people, and we just, like, fuck around for a little while. Um, what a funny thing to worry about, like, polyamorous people feeling like you're in competition with them.

Dedeker: No, but- Hmm. Interesting ... not that funny. That's an interesting point, but yeah. No, I know. No, that's something I know my brain comes back to often where, yeah, we're so socialized by a capitalist landscape to just, like, always be thinking- Hmm ... about, like, competition. Is someone trying to-

Emily: Scarcity mentality.

Dedeker: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Why, if you're, like, fundamentally plugged into this idea that, like, maybe what makes healthy relationships is not a competition- Yeah yeah, why would you fall for that?

Dedeker: However, I, what I, what I do wanna say is, um, definitely appreciate the aggressive invite to collab on your show- via in the form of a rap out 'cause, 'cause here's the thing that we don't tell people who listen to our show is, like- We're

Emily: terrible at rapping.

Dedeker: Okay. There's, that's, that's that one piece. Um- Yeah. But the other piece is that, like, I think the secret dream behind the scenes at Multiamory has always been to do a confrontational interview. And- Boy.

Nichole: Right ... we

Dedeker: have yet to do that. Just a real- We've fantasized about it many times. Somebody pitched their book to us- Oh, boy ... a few months ago. That not only was the book completely AI generated- ... but it also cited some of our work and, like- ... misattributed it to somebody else. Wow. But in retrospect we were like, "We should've gotten him on the show. That could've finally been our, like, confrontation interview-" Oh, my God ... where we just tore this person apart on air," but we never did.

Daniel: Do you get pitches where they send you something and they send example questions that you could ask them? Like- Oh,

Dedeker: sure. Oh, sure.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily: Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah. So whenever somebody sends us one of those and they clearly have not, like, listened to the podcast- they have no idea what it's about, we do a, a segment called Between Two Pervs where we play act- ... as the, the guest that we're never gonna have on our podcast - I see, okay, okay. Wow. That's cute ... and ask them the imaginary questions.

Jase: Right.

Daniel: So you should bring- That's very fun ... you should bring the ones that you have, the worst ones. Ooh. Yeah, that would be

Dedeker: fun. We'll just forward them to you.

Emily: Okay. There you go. Oh, that's a good idea.

Dedeker: Well, to be honest, actually, the thing that I want to do, the other thing that I fantasize about doing and then never actually do is with those really poorly placed pitches, is usually they come from a PR company. And where I sometimes want to reach out to the person that they're representing just to be like- Mm ... "Just so you know, your PR person is kinda shotgun, scattershot sending you out to, like, really badly matched- Mm. Yeah ... fits for- Yeah ... your voice and your topic, and I don't know how much you're paying your PR person, but- Right just wanna let you know that

Jase: this is what's happening." Like, it's probably too much. Yeah. Yeah.

Emily: They see the word podcast and they're like, "Yeah, why not?" Yeah. Yeah. "Sure. We'll see what happens." We did, we

Jase: did actually do that once, where their PR person reached out- and we actually knew that person 'cause they'd been on our show before. Oh. We did reach out, kind of be like, "Hey, w- we just got this message from your publicist who clearly didn't know that you were on our show- Mm. Uh-huh ... didn't understand what we were all about. Like, you know, y- you should maybe talk to them about that."

Nichole: Yeah. I feel like- Yeah. This is the divergence of where we are, 'cause you all are like, "We're gonna do a service. We're gonna reach out to these like talent." "We're gonna... You know, and we're gonna take these questions and make fun of

Emily: them."

Daniel: I feel like what you did is the only opportunity that you're going to get to do something that's kind of like when monogamous people tell other monogamous people that their partner is on a dating site.

Jase: Oh.

Daniel: It's like- You're right ... just, just so you know. It's

Jase: your PR person.

Daniel: PR person. Just, just so you

Jase: know. Yeah.

Daniel: Is sending dick pics to everyone. Right.

Dedeker: Scatter shot. Yeah. Just the spray and pray method- Yeah. ... of sending out dick pics. 100%.

Daniel: confused. Speaking of capitalism.

Laurel: Oh.

Emily: Hmm. Oh, good

Daniel: segue. And-

Emily: Yeah.

Daniel: It was a segue to something like 10 minutes ago, but, you know, whatever. Eh. we have invited you here for a certain segment today We always let Nicole do this one

Nichole: Monogamy, are you okay?

Daniel: So, - Yeah. We wanted to talk about the use of the term micro-cheating by the dating industrial complex, I think it started with influencers and con people.

Laurel: Con people.

Daniel: And then, it started to infiltrate, like psychotherapy. Mainstream. Like, Have you all heard of this before?

Dedeker: Oh, yes.

Emily: Oh,

Dedeker: yeah. Oh, sure.

Emily: Of course. Of course.

Dedeker: I'm a big fan. In the what? In the last 10 years?

Emily: Big

Dedeker: fan. You're a big fan

Emily: I love... '

Jase: Cause I'm... Look, I'm busy. I don't have time to cheat, but microcheating- ... I can actually fit it into my schedule. There you go. I

Emily: love it. That's perfect. I love that.

Nichole: Maybe we should briefly, cite our sources, um- Yeah ... and list some examples of micro-cheating. Wow. So there's this Vogue article, How to Recognize Micro Cheating and What to Do About It, right? So right off the bat- Oh, it's saying micro-cheating is a thing. Um, and it gives us a bulleted list, and I love bulleted lists. So examples of micro-cheating include secretly messaging someone, deleting messages. So saving room on your phone, can't do that. Complaining about your partner to other people. Fuck. Oh, my God. Burned. Okay. Yeah. A lot. To

Emily: anyone? Yeah,

Nichole: right? Anyone at all. maintaining contact with your exes or people you used to talk to. People you used to talk to. People you

Laurel: used to talk to. Wow. this one- Every lesbian is micro-cheating.

Daniel: With all other lesbians simultaneously. Yes. Yeah. This is the first one that I was like, "This sounds like rules for a cult."

Laurel: Oh. Mm. Oh, yeah.

Daniel: Like, a relationship in this, in this context is a two-person cult, and you gotta cut out all the people who you were in contact with previously.

Jase: Right. You can never speak- Yeah ... to anyone you've ever known ever

Nichole: again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's

Jase: important.

Nichole: Also, the hills and valleys that this list takes- Yeah, the disparity of the items ... is wild. Um- Yeah ... lying about your relationship status online or offline.

Jase: Gladly clarified that- Yeah. ... what was going on in the, the two different parallel worlds that we were

Nichole: in. Uh, trying to impress someone who isn't your partner. So don't try and go get that promotion. Don't get... Yeah. At work.

Daniel: Don't

Nichole: start a

Daniel: podcast.

Jase: Uh, yeah.

Dedeker: okay, but I need to like slam on the brakes and, like pull us into reverse because Daniel, you just said don't start a podcast as an example of trying to impress somebody.

Emily: Meaning that that's why you all started- Oh, my God ... a podcast.

Dedeker: I just-

Daniel: Are, are, are you saying, are you saying that I have failed at micro cheating? I chose the one thing that is guaranteed to impress

Dedeker: absolutely no one. I'm just saying I think starting a podcast is, like the least impressive thing- Yeah.

Daniel: Exactly. ...

Dedeker: in this day and age. That's all.

Nichole: Um, having a secret friendship.

Laurel: Mm.

Nichole: Mm. That feels weird.

Laurel: It is. Like, why?

Jase: That's a weird thing to say.

Laurel: Yeah. It's a weird thing to say. Have I ever had a

Jase: secret friendship?

Nichole: This is my secret friend. cyberstalking someone you find attractive. I don't think- Just don't do that ... it's not the finding attractive, it's the cyberstalking maybe. Yeah. Just the cyber- That is- Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Sure, sure. I think that's maybe a little bit more of an issue.

Daniel: If I cyberstalk somebody I find repulsive, is that

Nichole: okay? Yeah,

Dedeker: apparently yes. There you go. I think that's fine, yeah. Like you hate, you hate following somebody. Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah,

Nichole: talking suggestively or sexting with someone who is not your partner.

Daniel: they are, like, presenting these things which would be considered not micro, but cheating by most people in monogamous relationships, would consider sexting somebody. Like- Yes. Yeah. Sure.

Nichole: Yeah. Yes.

Dedeker: Right.

Daniel: Like, but they put it in there in the same bulleted list with like liking attractive people on Instagram and like- Right.

Nichole: Yeah. Yeah.

Dedeker: Well, I think this, this is a set of cultural mores that are trying to catch up to the digital age. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yes ... that, like, I think that we get the rise of labeling something as microcheating once it's a lot easier to track microinteractions that a partner has with other people. Yeah. Right? Yes. In the same way that, like, if your partner, you know, like back in the day, goes off to work at a separate workplace, has their interaction with all their coworkers, and you're not there to see, like, did they laugh a little too hard at their hot coworker's joke or did they engage in some flirty banter. Did they try to impress somebody? Yeah. Did they try to impress somebody? Like you're not there to track all that, in a way that we can now. Yeah.

Emily: Yeah.

Dedeker: You know? Where we can be like, "Who are they following on Instagram, and why are they interacting with this person, and who's that, that name that I saw pop up on their phone?" And you know, yada, yada, that like now it's like we have more of this data that I think becomes more rope to hang ourselves by essentially .

Nichole: Yes. They talk about this- Yeah ... in The Atlantic article, The New Infidelity, where we are, we are treating points of data as inscrutable evidence of who they are and what their motivations are, like, if they like an ex's Instagram, they must still have feelings for their ex. Right. Right?

Daniel: Mm-hmm. The Atlantic article is treating this as, like, independent personal data mining of your partner. Like, you're trying to de- Yeah. Wow. Okay ... you're trying to determine a certain set of behaviors based on the same kind of parameters that, like, Instagram uses to target you ads. Mm-hmm, yeah. Like, you're, you're looking at all their online behavior and trying to come up with an equation that's going to tell you whether or not you've been betrayed.

Laurel: Like, I'm making the connection to, like, personality tests and stuff, where it's like everyone wants a quiz- Hmm ... to tell them what is wrong.

Jase: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so- And all ENTJs are micro-cheaters.

Laurel: Exactly. Thank you. Yeah. Someone finally said it.

Jase: Wow.

Laurel: Like, I, I see the same thing, crop up over and over again, where someone feels uneasy about their relationship and they are just, out looking for confirmation bias. It's not enough for you to just, like, have your feelings, examine them, and, like, talk to your partner about them. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like we're not culturally equipped for that for 8,000 reasons, and so we need like a listicle to tell us, like- Yes Behaviors to look for these are the... This is the checklist.

Nichole: Yeah.

Dedeker: Yeah. Okay, I feel like Laurel's, like, really setting the volleyball and I really wanna spike it- Yeah, yeah ... right out. Do it. Spike

Nichole: it. Yeah.

Dedeker: Do it. I've got a whole TED Talk- A whole thing ... on this.

Laurel: Ooh,

Jase: yeah.

Dedeker: Yeah. Um, to go back to that Vogue article, I, I believe at the top, they define it as any small transgression that causes your partner to question your commitment or interest. So now- something happens that causes you to question your partner's commitment or interest. I'm like that's a very human experience, right? Like you're saying, Laurel, of like feeling a little uneasy, feeling unsure- Mm ... having some question marks that come up, Mm-hmm. I think when it comes to the stuff that can make us feel insecure in a relationship everybody has something, , that maybe is a little bit irrational or disproportionate, right, that sets off those feelings inside of you. And I will say, like I've worked with plenty of poly people who again end up with these weird slippery definitions of cheating, you know? Mm-hmm, yeah. Like I've seen everything from like, you know, "Hey, you agreed that you would tell me when you started matching with people on the apps but then you waited a week later to tell me that you were on the apps and I feel like that was a betrayal and I feel like you cheated on me," right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now, Let's say, I don't know, you see your, partner, belting karaoke when you're out at the bar and you feel like they're really trying to impress someone else who's not you. Mm. And you have feelings that come up. You confront your partner on that, and maybe your partner gives you some pretty reasonable pushback- Mm-hmm ... of like, "I'm just singing karaoke. I'm just having a good time. Like, this isn't a big deal." And I think that if you feel like your partner's not validating your upset feelings or your insecurity, that's when it's very easy to be like, I need to get the weight of social media validation- Mm-hmm in order to justify my stance. Yes. That's, that's my TED Talk. And

Daniel: you need to pull in like a c- a big, big bomb of a word. Like there's a certain- Yeah

Laurel: Yeah ...

Daniel: intensity and pungency- Mm ... with capital C cheating. Mm-hmm. And you can just- Right ... kind of piggyback it on the term micro and then- . it's like a micro scarlet letter, just a little, just a- Just a little a ... little a, lowercase a. Just a

Emily: little lowercase a. Yeah. Just going back to what one of you said before about, you know, back in the day before we had a super computer at our hip at all times, like, we couldn't really monitor what it was that our partners were doing potentially in the same way that we do now. So, you know, you would go off and you would have a bunch of interactions with other individuals that were completely separate from your partners, , and it would be okay. Like, you would be full people outside of your interaction with one another. And I think that unfortunately, like, the creation of these devices has allowed us to, as you said, like, look at everything so specifically and get really freaked out about any little thing that might be a transgression of some sort. And I don't know what there is necessarily to be done about that except for understanding that we all, like, have our own lives, and we should be able to live them to a degree, and that sometimes includes being attracted to other people, even if that's just, like, I don't know, uh, uh, Megan Fox or someone. That person just came up in my head. She is

Nichole: always the person who I think of.

Emily: There you go. Really? Okay. There you go. I mean, she is really attractive. She's really attractive.

Nichole: Yes. She's got Fox in her name. There you go. She is a fox.

Emily: Right there. Yeah. Emily's,

Daniel: Emily's all innocent about it, like, "Say, um, Megan Fox." My man.

Emily: She is a, yeah, a good-looking lady.

Nichole: But, like, we know, that depression and anxiety increase the more you're online, right? The more you use social media, mm-hmm. And so this just feels like a next step in, like, where that anxiety is funneled to when it comes to relationships. Yeah. Mm-hmm. The Cosmopolitan article that I read about having a boyfriend who's not online-

Daniel: Oh

Nichole: and not on social media- Right Mm-hmm ... and- Oh, that was

Daniel: linked to from one of these,

Nichole: huh? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's, like, the 13 things that I love. I have to explain memes to him. And he doesn't know where all the restaurants are. That's so ridiculous. And it's like, it's like social media's the only possible way you could possibly get information.

Jase: You could get any information. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. "

Daniel: I keep him... I, I get to keep him chained in the basement like Casper Hauser." Wait, no, to- "Slide a, slide a plate under the- ... under the door."

Laurel: It sounds like, it sounds like th- you know that, like, Born Sexy Yesterday trope? Oh, Born Sexy Yesterday. Born Sexy Yesterday. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It sounds like that kind of thing. Yes. Like, I just want a Lilu multi pass

Dedeker: to date. Uh-huh. "I just watched that." This has all reminded me also of, um, the Gottmans sometimes reference this book- by Shirley Glass. It's called More Than Friends, and it's very much kind of like a hand-wringy, here's how to keep your partner from cheating on you- Mm. Mm ... you know, how to have a healthy marriage sort of thing. And that author Shirley Glass came up with this really weird metaphor, for, like, how to keep a, like, a monogamous marriage healthy. And her metaphor is like, " you imagine that your relationship is, like, a house that the two of you are living in, and, like, you wanna keep an, like, a window that's open just to each other inside the house. But you wanna make sure there's walls- ... you know, that don't have windows outside the house." What? Because if you have windows, like- ... on the outside walls, that lets other people get in. And I was like- ... "So you want your relationship to be this dark, dark house."

Jase: Yeah. With no windows on the outside.

Dedeker: With no windows on the outside. No. No doors, either. Just a window between the two of you on the inside. I'm just like, this is- Right ... I don't think this is, like, the nice, cozy, wonderful- Mm ... monogamous relationship utopia that you think it sounds like. Like, give, like a prison. It sounds like what you're going for. It sounds like a prison. It's... No,

Jase: it's like one of those one-way glass kinda things. It's so you can keep an eye on your partner, and they just think it's a mirror. There you go.

Dedeker: Yeah.

Nichole: There was another bullet of the list where it's like, sharing knowing looks behind your partner's back.

Dedeker: Yes,

Nichole: that was so specific. And I'm like, then Laurel and I- Yeah ... are constantly cheating on Daniel.

Laurel: This is... Yes, constantly. We... No, we do it right in front of his face.

Daniel: That's true. We do it, yeah. He just does not notice. I notice. I just go and cry in my windowless room. Oh.

Laurel: Oh. Oh.

Dedeker: Sweet.

Laurel: We

Dedeker: slide it to you. Closed off from the outside world.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: By the way, the windowless house, though, does not prevent the suitors from coming up through the toilet,

Laurel: Oh, the toilet people.

Dedeker: Oh, if they're really determined-

Emily: Oh, wow ... they

Dedeker: make their way. Like

Laurel: sewer alligators. They'll make their way.

Dedeker: Yeah.

Emily: In reverse Shawshank Redemption style or something. Like, through the fricking- The good old

Laurel: reverse Shawshank.

Emily: Exactly.

Dedeker: Dude, in five years, that's gonna be the new listicle on Vogue. Yeah. Are you being Shawshanked? Oh my gosh. Here's how you can find out.

Jase: Yeah. Find out if s- if your partner's ex is trying to reverse Shawshank.

Daniel: A sexual position?

Jase: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Jase: Yeah, it's all of the things. Oh.

Laurel: Oh, that's good. Wow.

Daniel: So I also, uh, brought in some, uh, little examples of people using micro-cheating- Oh in their personal contexts on Reddit. Oh,

Laurel: I love Reddit.

Daniel: Sorry, these-

Emily: Yeah ... these were fascinating. These are so unhinged.

Daniel: Sorry to re-traumatize you. I know that y- you thought that you could leave Reddit and never see it again. Okay, so This is, Am I Overreacting subreddit. Oh, yeah. I

Emily: love that. Hm.

Daniel: And the title is Am I Overreacting? Girlfriend Accuses Me Of Micro-Cheating. about three weeks ago I got this game called Game of Vampires: Twilight Sun ways of growing strength are by marrying your characters to other characters using blood or items-

Laurel: Oh, God. Oh, okay ...

Daniel: and participating in events. Look, the, the two ways

Jase: we get married in real life too. Yeah. Using blood or items. Blood

Laurel: and

Daniel: items. Some fluids, you know?

Jase: Yeah.

Daniel: so a few days ago my girlfriend asked me about this game as I was playing it and looking at my characters' partners, and she asked if they are real people, to which I responded, "They're non-player characters." In the past week my girlfriend has been acting very strange, accusing me of being sneaky, checking my phone for hours on end, and being passive aggressive to me. I always allow her to go through it, and eventually I just fall asleep and wake up to her raising her voice at me-

Laurel: Oh my God

Daniel: So the partner is basically accusing him of micro-cheating.

Laurel: With NPCs?

Daniel: Well, apparently there are real people in the game that you don't really directly interact with, but you marry off your offspring to, which is just fucked up- What? in its own-

Dedeker: Now, to be fair, I'm looking at screenshots of this game, and every NPC/PC in this game is really hot.

Emily: AI. Hot AR. Or they're... Oh. Oh, yeah. Well, then maybe- Might

Dedeker: need to

Emily: reconsider ... maybe he's not, in fact, they're not overreacting.

Daniel: All right. Emily's type is Megan Fox, Dediker is NPCs. Vampire playing card, yeah.

Emily: Vampire vampire vampires. Oh, you're right. Oh, wow. They are hot.

Jase: So I'm, I'm not sure what the actual situation is in this story, but I'm just imagining- ... you know, they're, they're out to dinner or, like, sitting on the couch. She came over or something, and she's like, "I need to look at your phone." He's like, "Okay, as always, here you go." Yeah. As usual. And then she starts scrolling through it, and he just, like, narcoleptic falls asleep right there.

Nichole: Well,

Jase: hours pass. Because it wasn't like... Yeah, it wasn't like now it's time for bed or something and we sleep, but I wake up to her raising her voice at me. Yeah. So it's implies she's been sitting there swiping on the phone- Oh ... this whole time. Yeah, my, I

Daniel: imagine- That's what I thought, yeah ... her squatting like a ghoul at the foot of the bed with her- ... like, going

Jase: through all the phone. Can not see it. Maybe

Dedeker: she is... It's 'cause she is a vampire, and she's threatened.

Jase: Oh. Oh. Oh. That makes sense now. Now that makes a threat. A lot more sense.

Dedeker: It makes much

Emily: more sense.

Jase: Yeah. Okay. Yes. Actually, yeah. I've come full circle on this one.

Laurel: Yeah. It makes sense. Which would explain why she's, like, pretty familiar with, like, players in a game and not understanding that they might not be real. Oh, yeah. She's- Right.

Emily: She's

Jase: like- ...

Emily: 300 years old.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah.

Jase: Right. Yeah. She

Emily: doesn't know what an NPC is.

Jase: She's like, "But we haven't had offspring to marry off to other people yet. How

Emily: is he doing that?" Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah, having your children, like, marry people eventually is, like, , slow motion cheating. You're just playing the long game so you can- Yes ... live vicariously 20 years later. Mm.

Dedeker: So slow cheating. Oh, that's gonna be- Slow, slow cheating. Yeah. That's what it's gonna be.

Daniel: That's good. That's the next

Dedeker: one. Slow

Nichole: cheating is the new one. The next one.

Daniel: I wanted to read the last part of this too, because I think it puts an interesting spin on it. I understand her getting upset as we have a boundary in place to not text opposite genders, which I 100% support."

Emily: Wow. Don't text

Dedeker: them.

Emily: Wow.

Dedeker: Do

Emily: you,

Dedeker: could you

Emily: talk on the phone with them? What if, what if you have a sister or a mother?

Dedeker: Yeah. What about that?

Emily: No. They're off

Dedeker: limits. Could you Marco Polo them? Hmm.

Emily: Got it.

Dedeker: Right. Oh, I really don't like that. Yeah, that felt yucky. Boy, I really don't like that.

Daniel: Can you imagine being in a relationship where the only place that you could speak to the gender that you are attracted to is by seeking out- digital vampires? Mm. Mm. I have to turn to digital vampires.

Jase: Right. Yeah. Oh, boy. Oh,

Nichole: boy.

Daniel: So it's surprising, so many of these, are ones that people deleted. I had never seen so many- ... like a pattern of deleted posts by original poster.

Nichole: Oh.

Daniel: So people-

Emily: What do you think that says about these micro-cheating posts?

Nichole: Hmm,

Emily: Do you think that they ultimately realize this is a little fucked up?

Nichole: Or they don't wanna leave an internet trail because maybe their partner is also investigating whether or not they are micro-cheating. I was gonna

Emily: say,

Dedeker: if you're giving this level of detail- Yeah, yeah about vampires- Fair enough ... it's like your partner's gonna know. They can see you, yeah.

Jase: Yeah. Yeah.

Dedeker: And I don't think you can be like, "No, no, no, people are complaining about this vampire thing all the time."

Jase: Right. And like, "It's not me. It's not me." Babe, everyone I know, their girlfriends

Dedeker: are also

Jase: complaining about

Dedeker: it. This is such... Esther Perel did a whole episode

Emily: about- ... this phenomenon in relationships. I

Dedeker: think

Emily: she's developing

Dedeker: a

Emily: book.

Daniel: do you wanna read the other, uh, Reddit thing?

Laurel: let's do that. All right. Am I overreacting? Would you consider this micro-cheating? To start this off, I never cared if my significant other watches porn occasionally. always fine as long as it was free. Okay. But I recently learned a while back that he was paying on certain sites for stuff, which to me never felt right, because free porn is accessible to everyone. But to go to a specific- Okay ... triple X site- It's all about accessibility. Yeah, right. Yeah. That's what we really care about here. There it is. Um- The

Dedeker: utopic world we live in where porn- Right ... is accessible to

Laurel: all. Porn is free. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: She's like, "This is proletariat porn, but you're elitist."

Laurel: For the bourgeois porn. If there's- Vintage ... if there's not alt text describing what's happening in the porn- Hmm ... it's not accessible porn. Yeah. Inaccessible. Uh-huh. Hmm. Hmm. All right. But to go to a specific triple X site to search for a specific woman or women, to make an account, add a debit/credit card, subscribe to the model, and then pay another woman for a nude video/photo seems like a form of micro-cheating to me. My boyfriend doesn't know that I know about this. When I brought up the topic of cheating, I had told him that this form of XXX media I would consider a form of cheating And he agreed with me.

Daniel: He didn't know that it was a fucking entrapment scenario. Yeah. Yeah.

Laurel: to me? I love that. Yeah. So I guess my question is, do any of you guys consider this behavior micro-cheating as well, or am I overreacting?"

Dedeker: like you pointed out earlier, Daniel, with the bulleted list, that on that bulleted list some of these things fall under the umbrella of all of us who are socialized within a predominantly monogamous culture. Some things where it's like, well, I would think obviously sexting with somebody else would be considered cheating. . And I do think that this is one that's like trying to update itself for our modern era-

Nichole: Mm-hmm ...

Dedeker: of that like can we safely assume if we're monogamous that like paying a specific other discrete person to send like a photo or video, does that count as cheating or not? Like it's kind of funny that this person is talking about their feelings about porn in general, that the, if it's free, then that's fine. Right?

Jase: Yeah, it's,

Dedeker: it- Is a little bit funny. Um, But then also for other people I could see the fact that there is a monetary transaction actually depersonalizes it. Right. Yeah. Mm. And makes it less threatening to some people.

Emily: Mm,

Daniel: mm-hmm. And yay for some of the commenters on this, because there was a good portion of people like, "Oh, so you don't like it when he pays sex workers for their work?" Yeah. Yeah, right. But if he's- Yeah. Exactly ... if he's, if he's stealing labor it's okay? Mm-hmm.

Dedeker: Yeah. Rather he just like exploit. Yeah. Right. Be part of the whole exploitative system. You're proletariat now.

Jase: Exactly. Right. Exactly. No, I'm glad someone called that out. Yeah. I think, so, so my read in on this whole micro cheating thing is Like, there's this idea that we start from this assumption that cheating is bad, maybe even like unforgivably bad, and so therefore by being able to define something as cheating it's like I need to make sure that he agrees with me about what cheating is, and then therefore he will be cheating, which is by definition bad, right? And I think that we see this with lots of other stuff. Um, I, I remember the three of us we, uh, paid a person, to, like, talk to us about, uh, racial sensitivity and things like that, right? Mm-hmm. Of like how do we be a good ethical company in that way, and one of the things that the, the guy said that really hit me hard is he's like, "I think one of the problems we have right now is that we started to treat the word racist as a synonym for evil."

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Mm.

Jase: And because of that- No one can ever admit to being racist. Right. Mm-hmm. And so we've created this situation where, like, if you admit to that, you've admitted to being evil.

Dedeker: just wanna c- conclude the poetry 'cause it was so great. Oh, yes. It was good. Yeah. What he said, He also said that because of that, then also now we see something that is evil, behavior that is evil, but if it doesn't have the race component, we maybe hesitate to define it as evil. Mm. Hmm.

Jase: Yeah. Interesting.

Dedeker: And I think same thing here with the cheating thing, is that someone could be treating you really shitty, actually, and like- Right, but it doesn't hit the definition ... completely dismiss it, but it doesn't hit the definition. Right.

Jase: So therefore, it's okay. Hmm.

Daniel: Only three-

Jase: Yeah ...

Daniel: out of 10 of the bulleted list. I'm cool. I'm

Dedeker: cool.

Jase: Right. There you go. Right. but we see this with, with any kind of term that we feel like people universally enough have decided this thing is bad.

Emily: Yeah.

Jase: Mm-hmm. Right? Whether it's abuse or racism or cheating or lying even, or, you know, whatever it is, it's like, if we decide this thing is bad, then it's all about, well, can I get this thing to be defined as that- Mm-hmm so then I don't have to, I don't know, don't have to, like, stand behind my own opinion that I don't like this. Mm-hmm.

Dedeker: Well, I think, Jase, what you're trying to say is what this one commenter said. So this commenter is trying to make the case that micro-cheating is not a real thing. You don't need strangers to give something a bullshit label in order to validate your feelings. If you think he's acting out of line with what you'll accept, say it with your chest. Yeah. Now.

Jase: Yeah. Okay. Right? Do it.

Dedeker: So I just imagine, like, on your tits, maybe writing- "Babe, I've discovered some behavior in our relationship that makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable, and I think that we need to have a serious discussion about that," and then just, like, do a little striptease.

Emily: Is this what you want, baby?

Dedeker: Here's some free porn for you. Yeah, there

Emily: you go. Right.

Daniel: the only way that she's going to get him to look at it, though, is to sneak into his account and ask- Hmm the sex worker to write it on her tits.

Dedeker: On her tits. Oh. That's good. Oh, that's a really good move. Way to go. Now I'm back in on this whole situation.

Jase: Yeah. No, that's actually great. I love that idea. 'Cause, like, supposedly she's got the model's name or whatever. She could be like- Oh, it's true ... "Hey, here's the deal."

Dedeker: Oh. His debit card information's already in there. Oh, yeah.

Emily: Right? She could... Yeah. Yeah.

Jase: And then that model can actually make some more money from this person who thinks all porn should be free.

Emily: Perfect.

Jase: There you go. It's win-win for everyone. Win, win, win. Sex worker wins, she wins. Oh. Well, I don't know about the boyfriend. He might-

Dedeker: Well, maybe, okay, but maybe he wins because maybe that's finally some indirect direct communication- Yeah You're right. You're right ... of what's going on. Hmm. You know?

Emily: Well, and that's the thing. Like, so many of these examples just show, like, how much bad communication is out there. Yep. Yep. And how everyone would, like, rather turn to Reddit, turn to a Vogue article, instead of just, like, speaking about how they feel to their partners. Yeah. Which is remarkable to me. Just so many people out there feel so scared to communicate at all. Yeah. Hmm. And it's, it's quite sad, honestly. Yeah.

Dedeker: I think it was The Atlantic article that pointed out that at least online, the discourse around micro-cheating seems to be led by women mostly. Yeah. Yeah. but Of course, that gets me thinking about, like, okay, on the one hand, I can see that, like, women, people socialized as women, like, go into relationships, especially with men, already with an internalized sense of disempowerment or perhaps with, like, relationship baggage of expecting- That's true their concerns or their feelings to be minimized, , and therefore, like, not necessarily feeling empowered to just be like, "Hey, this thing brought up some weird feelings for me. Let's talk about it. And instead, like, I think the instinct is these kind of more, like, up through the toilet, sneaky sort of ways- ... of getting information, right? Mm-hmm. And, like, building your case, of anticipating if you're gonna be dismissed. And so yeah, you really need to build the airtight case, and you gotta get backed up by strangers on the internet and things like that. I'm not saying that any of this is good, but I think that's sort of my, like, armchair sociology theory about, like, why it seems like this discourse is mostly talked about by women.

Nichole: Mm-hmm,

Emily: mm-hmm.

Laurel: Mm. It's interesting 'cause on the flip side of the internet, like, I see a lot of women posting about how aggressively pissed off men are about things that would fall under this, like, micro-cheating- Yes category. Yes. Mm. But they don't- Interesting ... they're not wasting any time, like- No ... asking the internet- Or breath ... if they're overreacting. No. Yeah. Yeah. They are just- Fair enough ... sending, like, hateful, controlling things to their partners- Yes ... immediately and obviously, this is, like, a very particular kind of guy and particular kind of dynamic. Mm-hmm.

Dedeker: Yes, 'cause I do think that type of guy, and 'cause I've been with a couple of those- I've dated that kind of guy, yes Emily's been with some of those. So- I'm, I'm thinking

Emily: of

Dedeker: a very- Who Among Us ...

Emily: specific situation, yeah. Who

Dedeker: Among Us is not, like, that kind of guy. I have found, yeah, the framing is never, yeah, I got backed up by all these strangers on the internet, it's like, no, this is just logical. Uh-huh. Yep, yep. This is what anyone would be upset by because I'm a man- Everyone is upset by this, obviously ... and I'm socialized into thinking, like, what I think is what everyone would think,

Jase: Right. Yeah. I think there was a time several years ago after a conversation when we realized this, that as a man, my emotions are actually facts. And as women, your, your thoughts are actually just emotions and feelings. And I, I do think we figured

Dedeker: that out. We did realize that. This is true. Once we re- once we realized that, it really helped a lot. With the relationship, in our business. There was this- Jason, it's

Daniel: so nice of you then to, like, give them microphones and pretend that they're turned on. Yeah.

Jase: Really what we should stop doing. Well, it's, we need feelings. We need feelings to- ... I provide all the logics and facts, and they provide the feelings, and it's a good compliment.

Emily: It's complementarianism.

Jase: Yeah, there you go. Just textual complementarianism,

Emily: yes. Mm-hmm,

Jase: that's how God designed it.

Dedeker: I wanna ask you a question, and maybe this makes it to air or maybe it doesn't, but the question that I wanna ask you three is, , how do you, like, record a podcast and have fun and make jokes without everyone getting pissed off at you? Because that's what our experience has been. Mm. Any time we have- Yeah, we try to make jokes. Yeah ... the tiniest bit of fun on our show , is people are not here for it. Yeah. Now, I think it helps with the three of you, like the branding from the beginning being there. Yeah. Yeah, for real. Right. Um, but I found that, like, I think our particular audience, uh, sometimes, , just isn't ready to have fun-

Nichole: Interesting.

Dedeker: Huh ... around some of these topics, or feels a little sensitive- Yeah ... around some of this.

Daniel: I mean, I think that you're right about the from the beginning thing, we've kind of leaned into being a shit show and being funny and calling ourselves Chaos Muppets, and being clearly mean sometimes too. Mm. Like, we started- Right ... off with like one of our earliest segments was Unicorn Hunter Hunters-

Dedeker: Yeah.

Daniel: Right. Yeah ... which is us, like, mocking the worst unicorn hunter profiles that we can find.

Dedeker: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: And like, once you go there, people, people don't expect sensitivity. I think what I'm saying is , you have to get people to lower their standards-

Dedeker: Yeah. Yeah ... when they listen to it. Well, well, okay, I, I won't, I won't... I would, I'll give you points and not frame it as lowering your standards, but, like, you filter. You end up naturally filtering- Yes

Laurel: Yeah ...

Dedeker: the people out who can't handle it. Mm-hmm. For sure.

Laurel: For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, yeah, I think there is a certain level of, like, our self-deprecation and, like, not taking ourselves very seriously that, like, factors- Mm into it, it's almost like a self-defense technique where it's like you, can't insult me because I've already, like-

Nichole: Mm.

Laurel: Mm-hmm ... insulted the patootie off of us.

Nichole: you know, your podcast walked so we could run, right? Yeah. Oh, wow. Like, when you all- Yeah ... started, I would say that polyamory/non-monogamy was part of the zeitgeist, but not the big explosive part- Yeah ... that it was when we started. Mm. And so we got to inhabit that space of, like, having a little bit more fun with it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, whereas, you know, you're coming onto the scene and, you had the unfortunate job of having to validate that this is an actual like- Yeah, yeah ... um, relationship modality. Mm.

Daniel: It's like you grew a culture so that a counterculture could exist.

Dedeker: Yeah. Interesting. the man now. Yes. No, but we are is the thing. Trust, trust us. We've had some guests, uh, that, like, we tried to get on the show, like guests who are much more fringe, much more anarchist, right- Mm-hmm ... who have treated us like we're the man. Wow. And, and we're kinda like- Yeah ... well, I guess kinda comparatively, yes, we are the man. Mm-hmm. Um, it depends on the room that you're in.

Laurel: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: We, we also kind of treat you like you're the man, but- ... in a, in a loving kind of way. Like, we do, we do have a... Do you know our nickname for you?

Dedeker: What's that? No.

Daniel: It's Big Multi.

Dedeker: Big

Jase: Multi. Love it. It's good. Yes. It's good. Yes. Is

Dedeker: Just 'cause Big Multi says this- ... doesn't mean we have to agree with it. Yeah. You're so right. Oh, man, I'm gonna join their show. Damn.

Emily: Damn it.

Dedeker: I'm gonna do my tell-all, my tell-all of escaping from Big Multi. Wow. I'm gonna be like one of those anti-vax influencers.

Emily: Oh, my gosh.

Laurel: like, you try to be unbiased. , I don't think that- Try to. Mm. W- yeah. Yeah. And I don't think I do. I

Emily: think it creeps in. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah.

Laurel: I think so, but you're still presenting a multitude of perspectives around something. Um-

Dedeker: Yeah, I think we've always, like, tried to be t- like, accessible like porn.

Emily: Price and

Dedeker: accessible. Um- There it

Emily: is. But we're also the thing, like- We

Dedeker: are also for free.

Jase: Yeah,

Dedeker: the show is

Jase: free. Yeah.

Dedeker: Yeah. The, the three of us individually, as far as that bigger, broader debate between are you assimilationist, or do you go much more rebellious and burn the whole thing down like, I think all three of us as individuals don't even fall on the same-

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Laurel: Yeah.

Dedeker: Mm-hmm ... place on the spectrum there, right? But I know on the show we've always leaned, more in the direction ... of, like, if, if we're gonna be your first stop on the journey, we don't wanna like- Yeah scare you right out the gate by- Yes ... by talking about, like, how many butt plugs this person had in their ass, like- ... last week- last weekend. Um- I needed

Emily: that. As fun as that would be.

Dedeker: As fun as that would be- ... and, like, but there's also- Oh ... there's plenty of people having the butt plug conversation much better than we are, right? See- And so if you're already ready for that, like, you can go over- ... like, go over there.

Jase: Yeah.

Daniel: I was so confused by that for a minute, but then I realized I was thinking about many butt plugs in at the same time, rather than- Yeah ... sequentially you could have- Mm ... a series of

Dedeker: butt plugs. Could be either. It's open to- Yeah ... it's open to interpretation. Yeah. Yeah, and that's because you're an advanced practitioner, so you understand. But it could go down many different ways. There you go. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.