Laurel: Let's get ready to rumble.

Daniel: In the blue shorts, behind curtain number one...

Laurel: We've got

Nichole: Nicole. Nicole. Have you guys figured out how to do the show without me?

Daniel: no, we just did, like- ... one-minute snippets. We've got a weird, like, collection of completely non-sequitur conversations- Great ... that me and Laurel were having.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: And then I would turn it off again. Because you're the only thing that keeps our momentum going.

Laurel: The only one.

Nichole: The only thing that keeps your momentum going?

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: That's why we call you in the middle of sex. I'm slowing down. Ugh.

Nichole: Yeah, and I say, like, "No, you can keep going."

Daniel: Yeah. 'Cause a pep t-

Nichole: I believe in you.

Daniel: Give us a pep talk.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: for those of you just joining us- ... which is everyone, Nicole had a last-minute work meeting. I went up there and, as we say, I yelled with my eyes.

Laurel: How offensive was it?

Daniel: On a scale of, like, normal me to bad me.

Nichole: Was it- I mean, truly I wasn't really paying attention because I was busy

Laurel: working. Oh. How bad does that feel, Daniel?

Daniel: Pretty bad. Like, I thought my eyes were louder than that.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: Nope, they didn't,

Laurel: They didn't penetrate the force field of concentration.

Daniel: What I was really trying to communicate, though, is that you should bring your boss along as a guest. You're like, "If you won't let me off of this phone call right now-"

Laurel: I'm gonna start recording it.

Nichole: The idea that I wasn't the one, driving the phone call with my millions of questions.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: No, we were just talking shit. Nothing interesting.

Laurel: Oh.

Nichole: I mentioned Bogotá a couple of times, so I thought that maybe you would hear that.

Laurel: Is that the safe word?

Nichole: It's just what he always makes fun of me for, 'cause I'm always talking about Bogotá.

Daniel: It sounds like the kind of fake script that you would give somebody, like, in a TV show to, like, be, like, serious businessperson. "What's going on with Bogotá?" Like-

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: I know. I

Daniel: know. The Bogot- the Bogotá office can't be reached today.

Laurel: Another fucking holiday in Bogotá?

Nichole: Okay, they do have a lot of fucking holidays. They have two Independence Days.

Daniel: wow. So, like, they have Independence Day, and then they have, a Codependent Day where you go back-

Nichole: there was an Independence Day 2, right?

Daniel: Yes.

Nichole: Why? Didn't we punch the aliens? And it was done?

Laurel: Well, they came back again.

Daniel: They liked it and wanted to- They wanted to get punched again. Were they

Nichole: other aliens? Were they new aliens?

Laurel: I couldn't tell you. I don't know.

Daniel: Just that sounds so depressing that it's just an endless, cycle of just new aliens coming to Earth.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Laurel: Poking us.

Daniel: Just looking for Will Smith.

Nichole: And he hasn't aged at all- in Independence Day 57.

Laurel: And they're like, that's what they're looking for is, like, the fountain of youth.

Daniel: Oh, I thought it was, like, Will Smith was the only one that they felt that they could really communicate with, like the whales in Star Trek IV. And they come back, and they're just, like, stirring up the ocean. "Will Smith."

Nichole: Is that your whale?

Daniel: It's my Will Smith whale.

Nichole: Oh.

Laurel: Will Smith as a whale?

Daniel: No. Aliens calling out for Will Smith in whale language.

Nichole: Hoping that he hears it.

Daniel: And that he understands.

Laurel: Welcome to Polyamature, Alan.

Nichole: I'm Nicole.

Daniel: I'm Daniel.

Laurel: And I'm Laurel.

Nichole: Sorry, I'm just coming out of work, so I'm trying to, I'm trying to catch up.

Laurel: Do you have a ritual? Can you do a ritual?

Nichole: I'm just, I'm trying to get present. I'm trying to get present.

Laurel: An exorcism,

Nichole: if you

Laurel: will?

Nichole: President Funny.

Daniel: All right. Will it help, will it help if me and Laurel chant that?

Nichole: President-

Daniel: President ... Funny. President-

Laurel: Oh, I heard President Funny.

Nichole: That's me, President Funny.

Daniel: Nicole from here on out is gonna demand that we address her as President Funny.

Laurel: Hello, Madam President Funny.

Daniel: And if we drop it once in a while- ... and we're, like, just Funny, she's like, "

Nichole: Uh, uh." Excuse me? you didn't push back at all- No ... with the fact that I said President Funny.

Laurel: Made sense to me. I don't know.

Daniel: Laurel's Used to the shit that I say. So, like, the, the threshold for, like, makes sense-

Nichole: Yeah ...

Daniel: is, is drastically lowered. Yes.

Nichole: Yes, yes, yes.

Daniel: And she can't tell the difference between us two.

Nichole: Just like you can't tell the difference between us two.

Laurel: It happens.

Daniel: None of us can tell the difference between any of the others.

Laurel: We've all just been pretending this whole time.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: we're all, an impressionist comedian just doing three voices. We're all just like one Rich Little.

Laurel: Is the Colgate Comedy Hour a real thing? Yes.

Daniel: Yes, it is.

Laurel: Okay.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah.

Laurel: Just thought I'd check.

Nichole: do we have some DM sliders? We never get sandwiches. Now I want a sandwich.

Laurel: I love a sandwich.

Nichole: Oh, now I really

Laurel: want sliders. People talk about sandwiches like they're kids food.

Nichole: They do?

Laurel: Somebody has.

Daniel: If you cut the crusts off-

Laurel: Then it's kid food?

Daniel: then it's kid's food. If you cut the crusts off and serve it to very rich people, then it's rich people food

Laurel: Then it's like a, What do they call it? Like a tea, a tea- A tea

Nichole: sandwich.

Laurel: A tea sandwich. Yeah. It's for tea time. I love

Nichole: those.

Daniel: Is this is, your entire goal in, working and climbing the corporate ladder is so that eventually that you can reach the status of tea sandwich, and you can have a garden party with a stack, like the pyramid of tea sandwiches?

Nichole: Yeah, that's a big part of corporate culture- Okay ... is tea parties.

Laurel: Every day at noon, someone brings in the tiered tea crumpet station thing, and you have your... You get your tea, and you get your crumpets, and you get your tea sandwiches.

Nichole: Can I have some sliders?

Laurel: Hop into the mail bag, babe.

Daniel: I'll have to read it in a tiny window Unfold that centerfold So if you want a little sandwich, Nicole, you're going to have to serve it to yourself.

Nichole: Boo. I make sandwiches all by myself.

Daniel: So what do we have in the old sandwich bag?

Nichole: Well, this is DM Sliders. It's our segment where we read things that come to us via the mail, the inbox. You can send us an email at polyamateurhour@gmail.com. You can DM us on Instagram and BlueSky at polyamateurhour, or you can go to our website at polyamateurhour.com, and we have a form that you can fill out where you can send us messages, you can send us bones to pick. Mm-hmm. You can send us, your own crazy, sexy poly stories. Anything that you've got, send it our way.

Laurel: You can put attachments on there. Yeah. So if you have screen caps of stuff you wanna send us, or if you wanna attach a little audio file of you doing a little talky talk.

Nichole: Ooh, I love that.

Daniel: But don't let the great, variety of options scare you off. It's not a form in the sense, like we don't need your social security number. You can put it in there if you want.

Nichole: So here is an email that we received-

Laurel: Hmm ... in our

Nichole: inbox. " Hey there, poly people. Daniel recently mentioned, likely in jest, hang gliding lessons. If you're serious, I know a local guy who instructs. I know another guy in SoCal who's the chillest instructor in the sport. Now that Daniel has the time, maybe it's time to learn to fly? If you think you wouldn't actually hate that, happy to pass along contact info. Thanks for all the laughs, Solo."

Daniel: Do I really want my hang gliding instructor to be chill?

Laurel: Okay, so when I went skydiving-

Daniel: Yeah

Laurel: Oh, when did you- ... for the first and only time.

Nichole: When did you do that?

Laurel: When I was in Hawaii with Hater of Dogs.

Nichole: Oh, fuck. I remember this. Okay.

Laurel: Yeah. my, like, skydiving partner guy, the person I was strapped to to jump out of the plane, also the chillest guy ever, as in probably very high.

Nichole: Great. Cool.

Laurel: And I think, I think a lot of them are that way. Yeah. I think a lot of them just smoke pot and jump out of airplanes all day.

Daniel: Yeah. You need one to counteract the other. It's a, it's a really fun kind of cycle

Nichole: you go through.

Daniel: You

Nichole: need, you need to get high before you get high.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: And you need to come down. And you come down.

Daniel: Before you go down.

Laurel: Yeah. But it was nice I mean, you know, it's like island life kinda dude. Like, just having, like, a-

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: I pictured the dude as soon as they said the chillest hang gliding instructor- Yeah ... of all time.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: He's just in a robe.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: The robe is flapping in the wind as he hang glides. The

Daniel: sandals.

Nichole: Um, Daniel, you're not allowed to go hang gliding.

Daniel: why do you want to discourage me from conquering my fears?

Nichole: it's not that I wanna discourage you from conquering your fears. It's that, I just think that you would hate it. You'd hate it.

Daniel: Yes.

Nichole: You would hate it.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: And then you'd complain about it.

Daniel: I don't know. I might, hate it up until the point where I do it, and then it might be really fun. It might be like a Laurel pegging me situation.

Nichole: Wait.

Laurel: What?

Daniel: Like I was scared, you know? Uh-huh. And then, you just lit a joint, put on a robe.

Laurel: I'm the chillest pegger there is.

Nichole: Okay, but also anytime I think about hang gliding...

Laurel: What do you think about?

Nichole: Obscure facts. Uh-huh. Um, what else is new? the cult's, I can't remember what the cult's name was, but their leader was Father Yod. Oh. I've talked about him before. Yeah. They had a band. They had a vegan restaurant in LA.

Daniel: They had gonorrhea.

Nichole: Correct. He died in a hang gliding accident.

Daniel: Ugh.

Nichole: But he knew he was going to die in the hang gliding accident. So he's like preaching to his followers, and he's basically like, "I'm gonna go die now." And they're like, "No, why?" And he's like, "I just gotta go." And he, and he dies in the hang gliding accident. So- So- ...

Laurel: did he cause

Nichole: the hang gliding? Probably. Probably. I think he swan dove into the ocean.

Daniel: This is gonna be my big, con now is I'm just going to pretend that I can see the future but only predict things that I do. I

Nichole: have- Who's gonna buy that con?

Daniel: You know, the same people who bought Father Yod's- ... are gonna be like, "Oh, I s- had a vision. I'm going to have a sandwich for lunch."

Nichole: It all comes back to sandwiches.

Daniel: It all comes back to sandwiches. This is going to be the theme of this episode.

Nichole: All right. So next in DMs letters, this is a message that we got on Ko-fi. Ooh. Ko-fi. We don't know how to pronounce it.

Laurel: Nobody does.

Nichole: But we know where you can find it if you have a couple bucks to throw our way, because like we just mentioned, Daniel's unemployed. you can find it at ko-fi.com/polyamourhoura. So this is from Sage. Sage says, "Hi, amateurs. It's your biggest South African fan. No others have declared themselves yet, so I'll reserve the title for now. I'm on a mental health break this year, and this podcast has become so comforting and constant since I started listening. Please keep doing what you do." Thanks, Sage. Aw.

Daniel: I really like it when people say things that actually make it sound like we are helping. I find that very, very comforting. Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah. They don't have to believe it. They just have to say it.

Daniel: I'm comforted that you're comforted.

Laurel: Wait, do we need to do a My Own Poly Idaho for South Africa?

Nichole: I would love that.

Daniel: I invited Sage. Sage is not quite ready-

Laurel: Okay.

Daniel: Okay ... for the My Own Poly Idaho- Okay ... yet.

Laurel: Okay.

Daniel: But, they're doing the same, shoulder exercises, shoulder rolling exercises- Uh-huh ... that Nicole was doing to get ready for recording.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: You know? They're, they're, they're shadow boxing.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah. Just believe that you're President Funny, Sage.

Laurel: If you'd like, we can chant it for you. It's not your job to be funny. You just come and tell us about your life, and we make it funny. Which is maybe worse. I don't

Daniel: know.

Laurel: Yeah. You

Daniel: know, unlike the United States, South Africa actually now has a democratically elected president funny.

Laurel: Oh, that made me sad.

Nichole: I also don't know about South African politics, so-

Daniel: Yeah, that was a- ...

Nichole: something I'm missing.

Daniel: That was a shot in the dark. I have no idea- Okay. ... if

Nichole: Final damn slider is a bone to pick. Ooh.

Daniel: So you know what? Stuberts, if you write in with a bone to pick, it's like you are requesting that jingle, and we will play it for you no matter how short your bone to pick is.

Nichole: I'm just gonna read it real quick. " Murderbot is an it." "Not a he. Alexander Skarsgard is a he, but plays an it. Fix it, Mort. Love you guys."

Daniel: That's sweet.

Nichole: Um, it's very sweet, and I really love Bone- Bones to pick about us. Like I mentioned, like I wanna find out where people are talking shit about us, you know? But-

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah, you manifested this.

Nichole: I did.

Daniel: I would just like to well actually the Stuberts well actually.

Laurel: Ooh.

Daniel: Because

Laurel: I don't think that- Do

Daniel: we

Laurel: need Iffy here to...

Daniel: Yeah, we'll, we'll tag- Um,

Laurel: actually.

Daniel: We'll tag Iffy. We'll tag Iffy. Um, because I don't think that Murderbot ever stated pronouns. it was-

Nichole: No, it was the other-

Daniel: Yeah ...

Nichole: characters that said- Yeah ... he's an it.

Daniel: They were just arguing back and forth. They're like, "Oh, you, it's a, you know, it's an it. Don't call it a he. It-

Laurel: Well, wasn't like Graffan being the one insistent that it's an it to not personalize him,

Nichole: All I can hear is, "Sec unit." "Sec unit." Like just- ... Mensah's voice saying, "Sec unit." Oh. It's like really comforting to me. See,

Daniel: So yeah. I, I don't know. Who's the fake ally now? Who's trying to speak for the gender identity of Murderbot? I think, I think you should let Murderbot speak for Murderbot's self.

Nichole: Yeah. Who's Mort?

Daniel: I think that that's a That I don't understand? Yeah. Wow.

Nichole: Good job, Stubert.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Got one over on me.

Daniel: Do you know what it is?

Nichole: No. You gonna Google it?

Daniel: All right. Live Googling. This is non-verbal content that our Stuberts tune in for,

Laurel: King Julian says, "Fix it, Mort," in Madagascar 3. You have so swollen. When the group is chased by

Daniel: animal control. Is-

Laurel: Oh my God.

Daniel: Wait, what? That makes no sense. Not only is it extremely obscure, it makes no sense whatsoever, and now I feel like this is just a, a bit on the part of our Stubert, is trying to get us to Google- They must have been referencing something in Madagascar 3 though, right? Like...

Nichole: You think that it's a reference to a reference?

Daniel: I think that AI is just looking at the surface, and the most recent thing that it can remember is Madagascar 3. It just, every explanation that it has for anything, it just cites Madagascar 3.

Laurel: But everything, like all of the search results-

Daniel: Oh my God. Okay ...

Laurel: are Madagascar- AI,

Nichole: who shot JFK? Madagascar 3. All right. Well- ... now we know that.

Daniel: And keep it coming, Stuberts. If you too would like to f- inspire us to Google something pointless- ... this is a totally acceptable use of our time and our forum.

Nichole: Correct.

Daniel: Yeah. And I, I am not being ironic.

Laurel: Thank you everybody for writing in. Wait, I had... I wanted to ask people for something.

Nichole: Love?

Laurel: Love.

Nichole: Money?

Daniel: Silence.

Laurel: Send us your love and money.

Daniel: And silence?

Laurel: No. Don't be silent. What? Be loud. Be proud.

Daniel: What were you gonna ask for?

Laurel: I don't remember.

Nichole: Okay. Well, as soon as you remember-

Laurel: I'll

Nichole: interrupt ... feel free to just interrupt.

Daniel: She's gonna do that anyway. She's gonna... Somebody is gonna be saying a sentence, which is often what we say- What are you

Laurel: talking about? And she's

Daniel: just gonna-

Laurel: I've never interrupted

Nichole: I mean, I don't know if she'll interrupt me.

Laurel: No, she won't.

Daniel: What's next?

Laurel: Ooh, yeah, what is next?

Nichole: I have a Crazy Sexy Polly.

Laurel: Ooh. Crazy.

Daniel: This is the only theme song that I always wanna sing live.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Crazy. You did some body rolls to it. Sexy Polly.

Nichole: You did it You still got it.

Laurel: Don't let anybody tell you otherwise, okay?

Daniel: I'm ready for my comeback tour. So what you got up your pant leg?

Nichole: all right. So I have a Crazy Sexy Poly, and Crazy Sexy Poly is the segment where we tell crazy, sexy poly stories that are not really crazy and not really sexy- ... but definitely poly. although the crazy part, it is kinda crazy- Mm-hmm ... 'cause it has to do with mental health.

Daniel: Ah. I mean, here we like to use the term wild.

Laurel: No, Daniel. No. No, bad. Bad, Daniel, no. So

Daniel: backstory, backstory. Remember when I, said that you were, acting fucking crazy during an argument a few weeks ago? You remember this? Yes. Yeah. Laurel said, " You know, maybe next time, you know, describe the action," 'cause I was describing the action, right? Not you yourself. " You know, maybe use something like wild. That's- ... that's what I use." She said, you know, like, "Oh, that's a wild take."

Nichole: Uh-huh.

Daniel: And now I've disclosed it. This is probably why she was trying to stop me, and she can't use it. No, because the- She can't use it anymore ...

Laurel: the point is not that they're synonyms.

Nichole: Uh-huh.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: So you're using it wrong.

Laurel: So wrong and bad, Daniel.

Daniel: Oh, okay. Next time I'll say wrong and bad.

Nichole: Ah. Unregulated.

Daniel: Un-

Laurel: Well, that was mighty unregulated of you ...

Daniel: yeah. And it fucking should be illegal. You're... That, that take of yours was like the opiate crisis.

Laurel: Let's get back to the Crazy Sexy Polly.

Nichole: Okay. so I'm just gonna be super vulnerable. Mm. Um, I fucked with my meds.

Laurel: Mm.

Nichole: My post-surgery meds. Oh. Um, so I'm on medication to suppress ovulation so that I don't have another exploded ovary.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nichole: and after a pretty terrible time, I decided to up it just to make sure that, like, I would stop ovulating, just to, like, totally make sure.

Daniel: Because following your, surgery, you had a really severe period. Yes. That's what kind of inspired it. You were like, "Whoa." Yeah. "I remember these."

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: so doing that, I think the side effects, like, really took over. I felt incredibly fatigued and felt just, like, severe depression like I hadn't felt in a really long time. Mm. and when it comes to my depression, like to tell stories to myself- Mm-hmm ... about what an unlovable and terrible human I am. Mm.

Laurel: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Nichole: How I don't deserve anything. Classic. and like RFK Jr., I use- ... I come to a conclusion and then use the evidence around me to support that conclusion.

Daniel: Mm, mm-hmm. Yeah. So you think that, this was caused by your vaccines?

Nichole: Yeah. so I'm in the middle of this, like, like, pretty severe depression, right? and then I adjust my meds and, I get to that part in a depressive episode where I know that I'm getting out of it, but I'm still clinging to the comfort and the, warmth of that depressive episode and the stories that I tell myself. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm,

Daniel: mm-hmm.

Nichole: because they're so familiar, and they provide, clarity for me, right?

Daniel: Yes.

Nichole: if I decide that I am terrible and not deserving of anything, then I don't have to have the expectation that anyone will do anything for me. Mm-hmm. I don't have to risk heartbreak. I don't have to, put myself out there. -

Nichole: The poly part of this is, actually being vulnerable with some of my partners about it.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: and I think we've gotten to the point where at least the three of us in the three goal, like, we know what each other's, call them, like, foibles- Hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Like, we understand, what triggers- Hmm ... a depressive episode or, like, how we respond to a depressive episode.

Daniel: Um- I'm, I'm now not only going to replace crazy with wild, I'm also gonna replace, bullshit with foibles.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: You on your foibles again?

Daniel: Yeah. You know, we've known each other for so long, I'm well familiar with your foibles.

Nichole: so, you know, Daniel and I are sitting down, Well, I, I am definitely late for work, but I'm deciding to have a conversation with my husband. and you're asking me, you know, How are you doing?" 'Cause you know that I've been struggling for a little bit.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: and then, you know, I just come out and say just, I mean, eventually, I, tell you the same story that I tell myself all the time, right? that I have the evidence from my past relationships- Yeah ... that I'm not worthy.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: and therefore, what is even the point? and you had some pretty great advice for me.

Daniel: I have no recollection of what it was. Really? So this is, this is gonna be, this is gonna be great.

Nichole: you know, we talk about how I just kind of, decide things all the time. And, in the context of dating and relationships, you mentioned, what I've been really practicing the last little while-

Daniel: Mm-hmm ...

Nichole: is, not trying to envision where the relationship is going, but staying present with it.

Daniel: Yes.

Nichole: And so when it comes to, like, unique individual relationships that you have with partners, you are just trying to let it unfold naturally- Yeah ... and take its own course and take its own time.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: And I don't necessarily, push for commitment. I push people away 'cause I decide that they don't like me anymore.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Yes.

Nichole: and so what you were ex- sharing was an exercise in, like, staying present

Daniel: And funny.

Nichole: Yes. and I appreciated that-

Daniel: Yeah ...

Nichole: because I think you just said it in a way that kind of made sense to me. it's not the exact advice, " Just stay present," but it is practical application of, like, you don't have to figure out what your relationship is.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: What if you just let it evolve the way it's going to evolve?

Daniel: I think I remember saying something like, um, now it's all coming back to me. You know, you're, you're uncomfortable with ambiguity in a lot of- Yeah contexts. And, trying to find clarity in a relationship early on is usually a fool's errand, trying to figure out what it is.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: And also, at any point in a relationship, just trying to figure out exactly what it is is also kind of a fool's errand. Like, it's very, hard in my opinion to, like, have absolute definitional c- clarity, in any kind of interpersonal relationship.

Nichole: I know that I keep fucking saying this, but like it's really making a lot of sense to me. I use past examples as paragons and, like, I'm like, "Okay, well, if this person did this and they said that they liked me, then this other person should do the same thing to tell, to, like, show me that they like me." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? If other people aren't reproducing the same patterns that I'm used to, then it's obvious they don't like me. Mm-hmm.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: And therefore, I should just break up with them now.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: instead of treating people like individuals. And that's also not to say that, I don't get to ask for what I want, or express my needs.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: but I never tend to think that it's gonna turn out well. And so instead of saying to myself, " It's okay, like, this is gonna turn out well. You're gonna do... It's gonna be fine"- As an opposite action to you should just break up with them now-

Daniel: Mm-hmm

Nichole: the course of staying present just feels more actionable to me.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: and like better advice.

Daniel: Yeah, you end up struggling back and forth if you're like, "It's gonna be good. No, it's gonna be bad." Mm. "

Laurel: It's gonna be good."

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Laurel: Well, yeah, 'cause relationships are living things between people, There is no destination. Yeah. You can't arrive at good.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: you will have good moments. You'll probably have some shitty moments. but, like, you can't arrive anywhere. And so, like, convincing yourself that it's gonna turn out good, doesn't actually make sense.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: it's not so much a matter of lowering your expectations as it is about, like, broadening your expectations. I think you'll have a lot more fun in relationships, regardless of how they turn out, if you, imagine it more like an open world video game than, like, a first-person shooter.

Nichole: Well, I think also, when, Laurel, you say, like, you'll have good moments, like, my first thought is, "Yeah, but I don't even have moments." Yeah, I don't even get to the stage where we have fucking moments. Right? And I think I need to get out of that. I just need to get out of that pattern of thinking.

Laurel: Yeah, yeah.

Nichole: So I shared this with a couple of my partners.

Laurel: Mm.

Nichole: not necessarily the, I'm thinking about relationships part, but more just like I'm telling myself stories-

Laurel: Yeah ...

Nichole: because I'm in this phase of my depressive episode, and I'm starting to think that, like, I need to hang onto these stories 'cause I could just be delusional the rest of the time.

Daniel: Mm. Finally, the mask is revealed. Yeah. You're a shit person.

Nichole: Yeah. so one of my partners was telling me... I was like, "I know this is rote, but sometimes I just really do feel like everybody got a playbook and I didn't." Mm,

Laurel: mm-hmm.

Nichole: And he was like, I completely understand what you're saying, and I feel the exact same way."

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: And right now I'm just trying to throw out any and all rules, I'm in my D-I-L-L-A-G-A-F era."

Daniel: Are you spelling out a name of a character from Lord of the Rings?

Nichole: Probably. Um-

Daniel: Dillagaf.

Nichole: But I was also like, "Fuck, do I have to Google this?" 'Cause he's so much cooler than I am. but I figured it out. I think it's do I look like I give a fuck. Oh. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so he's practicing just, you know- Being in the world just being in the world. , Because the reality is that nobody got that playbook. Right. Like, Like, we're all just faking it. and some people fake it better than others.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: I wish sometimes that you had been around to witness more of my, dirty 30s.

Nichole: Uh-huh.

Daniel: you're just closing out your 30s, And you're like, " Everything sucks." My 30s as far as dating though, I was a chaos demon- Mm-hmm not just a chaos Muppet-

Nichole: Mm ...

Daniel: or gremlin or other adorable chaos entities. it was tough, and it was in large part of my own making.

Nichole: Uh-huh.

Daniel: and I dated a ton and was rejected a lot and then arbitrarily rejected a lot of other people. So I don't know. I wish that you could have seen me before I kind of cobbled together my own playbook- Uh-huh 'cause there was a lot of wandering in the desert I mean, I don't know that I- To use a Jewish metaphor.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah, so Jewy of you.

Nichole: I don't know that I need to see it though, because it's like I'm experiencing it, And I also have my 20s. It was also bad. but I wanna share one more. Just like I was talking with another, partner of mine and, he shared with me, this- gem that his, therapist has shared with him about how our brains, the pain that we feel is real, but, our brains don't know how to process that level of pain, so they connect stories to the pain.

Laurel: Mm.

Nichole: and we just continue to, like, tell those stories over and over again to... And, like, the idea that my brain is telling me a story in order to justify the pain that I'm feeling-

Daniel: Yeah

Nichole: also made a shit ton of sense to me. just that there was this gap between reality and fantasy-

Laurel: Mm-hmm ...

Nichole: and this pain is fully fantastical, and so I'm gonna ascribe this, very real story to me- Hmm ... to it in order to make sense of it in my head.

Daniel: Yeah. And in that way, it really is like RFK and the fucking-

Nichole: Exactly

Daniel: you know, vaccines, right? Yes. Like, let me somehow explain my deep and persistent sense of unease.

Nichole: Yeah. So the poly part is that I shared, I was vulnerable with my partners. They had some really good, reflection back to me-

Laurel: Mm ...

Nichole: about like, okay, well I don't feel, so alone.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: and I don't know. I, cling to that story so tightly that I'm unlovable and unworthy and- I'm getting bored with it

Daniel: I just feel like that's a good sign.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Like getting bored with your own bullshit-

Nichole: Yeah ...

Daniel: usually means that it's kind of- My own

Nichole: foibles. Yeah.

Daniel: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Shall we move along home?

Nichole: Yes.

Laurel: Get along, little doggie. You know who else can give you, really good advice?

Nichole: Who?

Laurel: Unicorn hunters.

Nichole: They can?

Daniel: By what process do we find one of these wise, wise unicorn hunter couples?

Laurel: On the internet.

Daniel: On our segment.

Laurel: Oh, unicorn hunter hunters. I am always surprised by the number of people on like, the non-monogamy subreddit- Mm-hmm ... that are like, like a couple that They woke up and just decided they're gonna be unicorn hunters- Uh-huh ... and then took to the non-monogamy subreddit and are like, "How do we do it?" That

Nichole: is wild.

Laurel: I feel like- Wow ... I see at least one of those a day.

Daniel: like you go down by the river.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: You put on your, uh, AR goggles. It's the only way that you can see the unicorns.

Nichole: And then you stick your fist into the water, and you wait for it to grab on. And then when you lift your arm up, it is wiggling around. It's wiggling around. And you

Daniel: gotta rip them off. I like that you're putting this in

Laurel: such a different

Daniel: way. With a fist. Stick

Laurel: your

Nichole: fist. No, I'm going noodling.

Laurel: that thing where you stick your fist in it?

Daniel: What?

Nichole: Catfish.

Laurel: You noodle for catfish.

Daniel: You stick your fist in a catfish?

Nichole: Did you have- ... no idea what I was talking about? He had

Laurel: no- yeah, he had no idea.

Daniel: I thought you were- My God I thought you were free associating.

Nichole: No.

Daniel: I thought- listen- I'm, I'm used to Laurel as we said- The, the standard for things making sense- ... drastically lowered.

Nichole: Okay. Well, now I'm gonna be really embarrassed if it's not called noodling, but it's where people go down to the river and they stick their fists in the water, and then catfish glom onto their forearms, and then they lift their forearms

Nichole: out of the,

Nichole: river and they catch a catfish ...

Daniel: we've got a, uh, unicorn hunter profile. Did we explain what unicorn hunter- hunters is?

Nichole: It's when we go on dating apps and we find the best of the worst unicorn hunters, and we rate them on three categories.

Daniel: Self-aggrandizement.

Laurel: Arbitrary rules.

Nichole: And would we unicorn?

Daniel: Are you ready?

Nichole: Yes.

Daniel: seeking a lovely lady for one-on-one excitement, a couple to join my wife and I, select single bi males to join my wife and I, couples who seek a bull, and we would never say no to a unicorn. So that is just about- They're

Nichole: right out there

Daniel: everybody, but everybody has a specific context in which-

Laurel: Yeah ...

Daniel: in which they are allowed. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Okay. I am dom- and have been for close to 25 years

Nichole: I thought it was his name.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Okay.

Laurel: And like- Well, 25 years ago he changed it. Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah. Or is 25 years old. Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: Close to it.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Could you imagine if that's how I introduced myself? I'm Nicole. I've been Nicole for about 39 years.

Daniel: I would love it if that's how you flexed your, like, experience. You're like, "I've been Nicole for 39 years."

Nichole: Right.

Daniel: I know what I'm Nicole-ing about.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Sensual, not a sadist. But I do have a fun collection of flogs and paddles if you would enjoy that type of sensory exploration. Desire to help you push boundaries that you wish to have pushed. If you simply desire a passionate physical partner, that is absolutely something any proper dom should also desire.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Okay.

Daniel: I feel like there's a lot of, like, hedging. Like, I'm a dom- Yes,

Laurel: but-

Daniel: Yeah ...

Laurel: and, but you know, if-

Daniel: a dom could be anything that you want it to be.

Laurel: Uh-huh.

Nichole: Mm-hmm. This is before he changed his name.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: I am formerly Ed. I am a formally-

Nichole: Oh ...

Daniel: trained martial arts instructor. Would enjoy a partner who desires a trainer for teaching self-defense.

Laurel: Okay.

Nichole: I've never come across that, ever.

Daniel: How weird of a fucking thing is that to, like, kind of mix with your desire to find a date or a unicorn, to be like, " And I would also like to be your sensei." Would enjoy meeting people who enjoy an actual connection versus just a one-night stand. Not opposed to it. A couple who would enjoy another man in their bedroom, whether it be a bull or just an equal partner. If you believe politics should be part of a dating profile, we likely won't be a good fit.

Nichole: Okay. Okay.

Daniel: I don't hate anyone for their beliefs- If you tell me upfront you do, that's a tough hurdle to overcome.

Nichole: I often start my DMs, with, " By the way, I hate..." Just that.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: I hate.

Laurel: Here's a short list of things I hate.

Nichole: Here's a short list of people and beliefs that I

Daniel: hate. I would maybe be tempted to respond to a profile- ... that was just that, right? as Dahlia has pointed out on the podcast- Mm-hmm ... before, if somebody says that they do not want politics in a profile, you know what their politics are.

Nichole: Absolutely. Yep. Yeah.

Daniel: And how interesting that it's not like a deal breaker, it's just a tough hurdle to overcome. Because as with every single preference that he has stated-

Nichole: He could take it or leave it ... I mean, yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Regularly tested July 21st, 2026, and vasectomy safe

Nichole: Like, don't worry, they're not gonna get me.

Laurel: Or like safe for your vasectomy. I respect your vasectomy. You can talk about it here. Don't talk about your politics, but-

Nichole: You wanna talk about the snip-snip.

Daniel: I thought he was just like somebody who's safe to perform a vasectomy upon. I was ima- trying to imagine what the equivalent of like vagina dentata would be for like a man. What's the danger penis? Like, I don't feel like it would have teeth, 'cause then it's just the tiny little teeth in the urethra.

Nichole: No, it's an alien that comes out-

Laurel: Comes out of the urethra?

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: As a second head.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: all right, would you like to hear her profile?

Nichole: Sure.

Daniel: Vegas locals, married, and we are ENM. If you have to ask what that is, move along.

Laurel: Whoa. Okay.

Daniel: Whoa.

Laurel: Okay.

Daniel: I'm curvy and BBW that I'm not sure you can handle.

Laurel: Ok- okay.

Daniel: 42 triple Ds and a 54-inch booty. looking for M or F or couple to join us, or looking for single M for me. Bring your A-game, personality, and abs my way. Want to woo me? Then stimulate my brain before you try any other body parts.

Nichole: Okay. Okay.

Daniel: I feel like you do that by doing the trepanation, you know?

Laurel: The what?

Daniel: You drill a hole in the head, like when you let out the demons. But instead of letting out the demons-

Laurel: Instead you put in one of those little scratchy hands ...

Daniel: and you stimulate the brain, and you just kind of rub it. And then Nicole, this confusion face. Yeah,

Nichole: sorry.

Daniel: Is savaging me right now.

Laurel: Is she vasectomy safe?

Daniel: Well, let me, move along here. Yes, on Fet and Telegram. No, not Snap, and don't even ask.

Laurel: Ugh. Ooh, okay.

Daniel: No condoms. Fatally allergic to latex.

Nichole: Okay.

Daniel: Okay.

Nichole: Well, um, does she know what fatally means?

Daniel: Not like fatally pale like you? Um- I looked this up. It is possible for people to have anaphylaxis from-

Laurel: A latex

Daniel: allergy ... from latex, from a latex allergy. Yeah. It is very rare.

Laurel: Okay.

Daniel: But there are other types of condoms- Yes ... that are not- Oh,

Laurel: yes.

Daniel: Yes ... latex. Yeah. And so this makes me doubt the self death threat in this profile. Like, I really do not think that that is true, otherwise she would have found out about the non-latex condoms.

Nichole: Yeah, I mean, Laurel and I- don't use latex condoms because we found out way too late that we're allergic.

Daniel: I think she's more like, " Oh my God, if I have to use a condom, I'm just gonna die."

Laurel: Yeah. Wow.

Nichole: I don't know. That's, that... Mm. Yeah. Wow.

Laurel: Is that the end of it?

Daniel: No.

Laurel: Okay. Does she mention that she's on birth control?

Daniel: no, but she is probably post-menopausal.

Nichole: Oh, okay. Oh, Good for her.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. She made it to the other side.

Nichole: Yeah. I hope to join you one day, sister. Okay.

Laurel: Yeah, keep reading.

Daniel: Can't host. I have a type, and if you are younger, have abs, and love cougars, then I'm your handful. Love to travel. Just back from Sydney and Norway. That is the end.

Nichole: So they have two completely different profiles almost. Yeah. Except some of their desires overlap.

Daniel: Yeah. Yes.

Nichole: Kind of.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: like he states that he's a dom And then

Laurel: Has zero dom energy.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Commences, commences to backpedal on every statement that he makes. Yeah. While she sounds like

Laurel: she- A fucking bitch.

Daniel: Takes... But like somebody who would, like, take absolutely no foibles.

Laurel: Yes.

Nichole: Yes.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. you know-

Nichole: She sounds like the dominant one.

Daniel: Yes. Yeah. and they both sound like assholes. Would you like to see some pictures?

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: All right, picture number one.

Laurel: Aw.

Nichole: Okay. Well, we know what side of the political spectrum he's on.

Daniel: Yeah, if the don't have politics in your profile wasn't enough...

Nichole: He's now in Star Wars cosplay.

Laurel: I think that this might be Disneyland.

Daniel: Yeah, I think it is. In-

Nichole: Oh. Not that I have anything against Star Wars, I just don't like the fan base.

Daniel: Stewarts, if you are Star Wars fans, we do accept you.

Nichole: True, yes, and especially if you like Rogue One.

Daniel: Yeah. And it's kind of like accepting people who are, like, coming from a cult into our more welcoming religion.

Laurel: Into our better cult.

Daniel: Yes. okay. We've got picture of her.

Nichole: Okay.

Daniel: So she is dressed with pigtails, sucking on a lollipop, definitely doing, like, a Lolita-

Laurel: Yeah, looking up- Sure ... at the camera.

Daniel: Looking like somebody who should have a Snap. That's all I gotta say. And okay, this is probably my favorite.

Nichole: I can't

Laurel: really... What is- He's holding a sea turtle. Monster.

Daniel: So usually, like, I would be like, oh, that's like he's trying to show you that he, like, likes animals or likes ecology or whatever, you know, a little sea turtle. But just based on everything this guy has said, like, seeing him hold the sea turtle makes me nervous.

Laurel: Like he just picked it up out of the ocean- Yes ... that's in, like, a protected habitat area.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. To get a selfie with it, or he's gonna do something to it.

Laurel: Oh, no. Fuck you, guy. Stop.

Daniel: and look at his smirk, like he's wearing sunglasses, baseball cap, kind of some kind of like techy, like fitness garment. Um-

Nichole: No, it looks like he's posing with big mouth bass.

Daniel: Yes.

Nichole: It look- Big, big Billy big mouth bass

Daniel: It looks like he's in fishing mode.

Nichole: Yeah, that's bullshit. Throw him back in the ocean, take yourself with him.

Daniel: Go live among the sea turtles, like at the end of Splash.

Nichole: but not nice. Don't fall in love with a mermaid. You don't deserve a mermaid.

Daniel: Nicole is withholding mermaids today.

Nichole: You better use that clip of Eugene Levy going, " You should use that clip of my ex-husband being mad at me one time and telling my dog to withhold love from me as punishment. Are you f- You're not... You're kidding. Wait,

Laurel: I'm not kidding.

Daniel: Wait, repeat this?

Nichole: That actually happened?

Laurel: This actually happened.

Daniel: Oh, don't give her what she wants? Oh, I think you told me about this.

Nichole: One, how can a dog actually-

Laurel: Withhold love, impossible.

Nichole: Impossible.

Laurel: Impossible.

Nichole: Um, two, impossible for any dog to withhold love from you specifically. Obviously. Three, monster. This is another person I wanna throw into the ocean. He's fine. Whatever.

Daniel: Okay, what's funny about it, what's funny about this horrific interaction is that really he was trying to say something to Laurel, but felt like he had to use the dog- Yes ... as his intermediary.

Laurel: Yes, Yes. Did he know the dog couldn't talk?

Nichole: I'm fully judging this person that I have never met, but has impacted my life severely.

Daniel: Have you... Are you in touch with him?

Laurel: No, not recently.

Daniel: Okay. I was curious if he knew that you had remarried polyamously.

Laurel: Oh, no. Yeah, he has no idea-

Daniel: Yeah ...

Laurel: unless he secretly listens to the pod, but I doubt that.

Daniel: Okay. I'll get ahold of him

Laurel: and just, like,

Daniel: be like- Yeah,

Nichole: find out. Whoa.

Daniel: Guess who's not withholding love from Laurel now?

Nichole: That would be diabolical, to bring up an argument that Laurel and her ex-husband had, to say that, "Ha ha ha, I got married to Laurel and you didn't. Your marriage fell apart." "You're probably heartbroken. You're probably so heartbroken because Laurel left you, left you so sad." "And now I get to enjoy Laurel, and I'm the only one who gets to enjoy Laurel except for all of her partners. Oh, yeah, by the way, she has so many partners. One of them is kind of rich and in Europe and takes her on trips. Oh, and by the way, we're all gonna buy a house together. Oh, and we have a semi-successful podcast."

Laurel: Hey. Semi? Semi? Yeah,

Daniel: semi.

Nichole: Oh my gosh. Um, good luck with that. Um-

Daniel: Self-aggrandizement.

Nichole: because he thinks he can, , has control over nature, I'm giving him a seven.

Daniel: What is the control over nature part?

Nichole: He's holding a sea turtle.

Daniel: Oh, okay.

Laurel: Yeah, that's rude.

Nichole: And is on a boat.

Daniel: I'm going to go a little higher because he says that he's a dom. 'Cause he says his name is Dom- ... and that he is a dom. He's a- Then he makes you call him Dom Dom. And that he offers to be your martial arts instructor.

Nichole: Yeah. Yeah,

Laurel: so-

Nichole: So

Daniel: what? I'm gonna go, eh, that, that much higher. Eight

Laurel: I wasn't initially thinking very high for him, but then I was thinking, like, a lot higher for her because she's- Oh ... very, like-

Daniel: Good point.

Nichole: Yeah. They're blended

Laurel: perfectly. Like, you can't handle this.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: Like, her whole profile is aggressive.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: I feel like anyone who actually instructs martial arts doesn't want to be teaching people they're in a romantic relationship with.

Daniel: Yes.

Laurel: Like, they are either doing it as their job and would like some time off their job, or they're lying

Daniel: Or it's, like, super creepy that, like, teaching martial arts to people is, like, a kink of his or something. Like, introducing it in that context is like, "Oh, yeah, I really wanna teach you martial arts." That

Laurel: doesn't creep me out as much as it creeps you out.

Daniel: Oh.

Laurel: Like, I don't know. Like

Nichole: But if it was something as innocuous as cooking, it wouldn't come across- "I'd love to teach you how to

Laurel: cook."

Nichole: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think, cause I'm also thinking, like, I don't know, if somebody wanted to teach me how to shoot guns, I probably wouldn't like that either.

Daniel: Also, I imagine this guy's martial arts, for some reason, I am just visualizing the evil dojo in Karate Kid. Right? This is- Yep. That's this guy's, like, they're all, like, everybody's standing in a row

Nichole: I imagine that it's just a lot of rolling on the ground. It's just a lot of somersaults.

Laurel: I bet he teaches- There's no

Nichole: punching or kicking

Laurel: taeekwondo to children.

Daniel: Yes, but treats them like the evil dojo in Karate Kid.

Laurel: Yeah, and the kids are just, like, rolling around on the ground, cross-eyed.

Daniel: And he's like, "Kick this sea turtle."

Laurel: All right, I'm gonna give them, I'm gonna say seven, too. Yeah.

Nichole: All right, arbitrary rules.

Daniel: Um, his are, like, s- the opposite of rules, because any, like, thing that he even states that he has a preference for, he immediately backtracks it and says- Yeah. Yeah ... like, "If you're willing to sleep with me, then-

Laurel: I'll take it ...

Daniel: I'll take it."

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Um, while hers, on the other hand, is, like, extreme, like, bossy, don't even talk to me if this, this, and the other. You better have fucking washboard abs. Like-

Laurel: Yeah ...

Daniel: mentioning your abs twice.

Laurel: Don't even ask me for a Snapchat.

Nichole: No condoms.

Laurel: Yeah. That's insane. Oh,

Daniel: okay.

Nichole: There's a lot of latex a lot of places. Yeah. it's in a shit ton of stuff. She would be dying every day.

Daniel: She dies a little bit every day. Like she doesn't-

Nichole: I die ...

Daniel: if she doesn't get to raw dog. Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: That's

Nichole: what-

Laurel: Mr. Abs over there.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: Raw dog and Mr. Abs. I, I think it is crazy to demand people not use condoms with you.

Daniel: All right. So are we defaulting to, like, her high? Like-

Nichole: I don't think so. I think I gotta give a five because-

Daniel: Like straight down the middle?

Nichole: Yeah, because, because hers is so extreme, and his, like-

Laurel: Is nothing ...

Nichole: is nothing. It's just waffling.

Daniel: his doesn't go completely to, like, zero, so I'm not gonna do a completely down the middle average.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Because he talks about politics by saying that you shouldn't talk about politics.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: Okay.

Daniel: That, I feel like, is s- a conspicuous arbitrary rule that signals something very specifically. And so I'm going to give them a seven- Okay ... combined score.

Laurel: I'm gonna split the diff and say six.

Nichole: Would we unicorn?

Laurel: Okay. So I did martial arts with my brother.

Nichole: So did I.

Laurel: I did it as an adult, though.

Daniel: Oh, yeah.

Nichole: Oh, no, I was a child.

Laurel: I mean, an adult. I was, like, 23 or whatever. I'm gonna say, like, my sifu was kinda hot.

Nichole: Your what?

Laurel: My sifu.

Nichole: What's a sifu?

Laurel: He's a Chinese sensei.

Nichole: Oh.

Laurel: he was not Chinese, but it was kung fu, so. Mm-hmm. and so that's who I pictured. And I was like, "Maybe, maybe, maybe."

Daniel: And then you saw-

Laurel: And then I was like, "No, no,

Daniel: no." no for me- Yeah ... as well.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: I am, disturbed. I'm gonna report them to the Sea Turtle Alliance.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Which is w- I respect a lot more than the Rebel Alliance from-

Laurel: There are, like, sometimes I come across those videos that's like, - some idiot tourist in Hawaii or somewhere, like, fucking with sea turtles, and then, like, the natives go and, like, beat 'em up.

Daniel: Oh, yeah.

Laurel: And I bet this guy was in one of those videos.

Nichole: I fucking hope so.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah. 'Cause I'm just remembering... Obv- Also, no. Um, I am just remembering now that the the Finn in The Big Finish in- Oh. From- ... Pucking Around. Oh my God, yes. the Finn, Ilmari?

Laurel: Yeah, Ilmari. Oh.

Nichole: Yeah, he spent half a million dollars, he donated half a million dollars to Sea Turtle Rescue. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Probably to offset this asshole.

Daniel: Yeah. Ilm- Ilmari, Ilmari would totally fucking noodle this guy's face.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: Like, fist his mouth. Yeah.