Laurel: Oh,

Nichole: Daniel, do you have chocolate?

Daniel: I have a little bit of chocolate. I also have a, that little diet Coke.

Nichole: She's not gonna drink the diet Coke. No

Daniel: baby rejects.

Laurel: No. My god.

Nichole: Maybe it's just the sleepy oral episode.

Daniel: what? Every episode is a sleepy laurel

Laurel: episode. You say that like, I'm not fun and interesting.

Laurel: Yeah.

Even when I'm sleepy. You take it personally when we're sleepy. Yeah. Why are you so mad about it

Daniel: when you have yawn attacks? , I'm like sitting here. Y'all are just passing yawn back and forth between each other, like,

Nichole: and you're not yawning volleyball, which means that you're a psychopath.

Nichole: Ooh, psycho Daniel.

Daniel: I just get angry. Yeah. When people yawn, you

Laurel: have like an anti empathetic response to yawning. Yeah. Oh, you're like, fuck you.

Daniel: They're,

Laurel: you are ruining my program.

Daniel: They're tired. I gotta go do a murder.

Laurel: That's what triggers you. Actually, we don't know what happens to you after we record every time.

Laurel: Like, you disappear for several hours.

Nichole: He does disappear for several hours. Hmm.

Laurel: Now we have to start looking through the news and lining up the,

Nichole: not the news.

Laurel: We

Daniel: gotta look for , the murders. You guys, I'm just holding in all my yawns. And then after the episode, I go into a room. How, how

Nichole: do

Daniel: you do that?

Daniel: And I just, it's like a, it's like a yell. I'm just like,

Laurel: that

Nichole: cannot be healthy and nor possible. Have you talked to your naturopath

about

Nichole: this?

Laurel: That doesn't seem, and if they sound like that, that's not a yawn. Yeah, that's something else. You're having a bowel movement.

Daniel: Oh, that's what I'm holding in. I go, you don't see me for two hours after every episode?

Laurel: So my partner Sean Was contacted by TLC Germany, the

Nichole: television channel. Yeah. Not the German version of tlc. That was my immediate first thought.

Daniel: I was wondering if it stands for something else in German. Like, like terse. Onic, career driven.

Laurel: Yes. Which makes sense why they'd be reaching out to Sean then. Mm-hmm. They're looking for, um, couples in long distance relationships, uh, specifically Germans and Americans, and they like stalked him on. I don't know, Instagram or something and reached out to him to be, which, what to do like a documentary.

Laurel: I don't think it's gonna fly because neither of us are German speaking and it's for German television, but

Laurel: , I still sent in like a little video of myself,

Nichole: but what would you, but it doesn't matter, Nicole.

Nichole: I'm gonna be famous. I'm gonna be famous on, I mean, German cable television. I support your dreams. I, I applaud you. And I say go for it. Be on that German learning channel. Um, I don't know if, I don't know if you're what they're

Laurel: looking for, but you know, that's the problem with reality TV is I like secretly really wanna be on it, but I'm not ever what they're looking for.

Nichole: Okay. So the real world was really popular mm-hmm. When we were in high school. And I, I remember watching The Real World and I remember writing in my journal, this is gonna be so embarrassing.

Nichole: Oh, I love it. I remember writing in my journal like I'm not a type like all of the people on the real world is they are a type. There's the Goth girl or there is the jock, you know, basically the breakfast club. But you know, everyone had like their thing. Yeah. And I was just writing in my journal about how terminally un unique I was.

Laurel: It's just that's what makes you so unique though. You cannot be pigeonholed or boxed in by labels.

Daniel: This is an ongoing narrative with you where you are like, I am generic white woman for the ages and. I just don't think it's true. I mean, I've said this before. I think you're the original.

Daniel: I think all the stock photos are based on you. No, no, no, no, no. I think white women were

Laurel: made in the image and likeness of Nicole.

Nichole: Okay.

Nichole: I don't know if you're trying to compliment me by saying that.

Laurel: I don't

Nichole: really

Laurel: take it as a compliment.

It's unclear. It's unclear. We're all just cheap

Nichole: facsimile, no. Okay. But what I'm saying is something different than what you're saying, Daniel. That

Daniel: Yeah. As usual,

Nichole: frustrating. Okay. So as a child, I was, I was looking at the reality TV and deciding that these characters were real people.

Nichole: Yeah. And that I couldn't. Like be on reality TV or I couldn't like be a person because I didn't have what they had. Right. Yeah. Like I didn't have a certain facet of myself. The whole stock photography thing, pan-European face is because people mistake me for other people all the fucking time. ,

Daniel: Same with me. They just mistake me for small, all of colored people. Uhhuh. So did you go out and like seek out an identity? Were you, like, did you try on a few? Were you like, oh, I'm gonna be Anthony Michael Hall this week.

Nichole: I mean. I think I, I think everybody does that though.

Nichole: Yeah. Like through middle school and high school, they try on different personalities and I've done that throughout my adulthood. I've like changed my style and changed my, you know, preferences. Like

Laurel: I tried on the anti personality when I was in high school.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Laurel: I, um, you shunned people? No, I didn't shun people, but I just like

Daniel: You screamed when they yawned.

Laurel: Yeah. No, I was just like, I was just like, Hmm. I don't think what I wear matters. I don't think anyone's actually really paying attention I don't think any of it really matters, and so I just wore jeans and a white t-shirt, like a white Hanes t-shirt and yellow shoes every day for a semester to see if anybody noticed

Nichole: and did anybody, no.

Laurel: Laurel girl.

Daniel: I mean, I feel like that's a sense of freedom, right?

Laurel: Yeah. I mean, I, yeah. I thought a lot less about what I was That's Steve Jobs before Steve Jobs. Yeah. Fuck you. Steve Jobs. You're a cheap Laurel facsimile.

Nichole: I think that's brilliant

though.

Nichole: That is also just a classic look. Yeah.

Hanes tea jeans.

Nichole: Yeah. They weren't the same jeans every day. They

Laurel: were not. Okay. No.

Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Laurel: All right.

Daniel: Then they'd be able to, if not see you, smell you.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah. Then my mom would con be concerned about me at some point. Yeah. Be like, mom, why aren't my jeans clean? Stuck at doing your fucking laundry law.

Laurel: Wow. Sorry mom. You don't really sound like we're, we're,

Daniel: we're sorry, Nancy,

Daniel: the first mom impression from Laurel on the podcast,

Nichole: but not the first apology of her mother. No, to Poly Amateur Hour.

Daniel: I'm Daniel.

And I'm Laurel. I'm Nicole.

Daniel: I was the only sensual one.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Laurel: Hmm. Sensual.

Daniel: Can you?

Daniel: I mean, you gotta actually like, can you put it on, uh, do not disturb So it stops vibrating.

Laurel: How, how, how will I know that people are interested in me if I can't hear it Vibrating.

Daniel: Put your phone on white t-shirt mode.

Nichole: I do think I'm addicted to my phone.

Laurel: Oh, I

so am That's really

Nichole: a problem.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: I'm addicted to your phone too. I'm always looking, reading through your texts while you're asleep.

Nichole: Oh, creepy. My texts.

Daniel: Yeah. that's why I wake up every two hours. Check the pod. Don't read to check the, check the podcast numbers and look at Nicole's text.

Daniel: Yeah. You're

Nichole: absolutely checking the podcast numbers way too often.

Laurel: Yeah. That is your addiction. Yep. You somehow like skated by the like social media diction, but you are glued to our very rudimentary podcast stats.

Daniel: Fucking pod bean.

Nichole: God,

Daniel: it's it does feel like they are going for the absolute like budget platform, if you have the lowest possible expectations, we are the platform for you. Pod bean.

Laurel: Hey, would you like to sponsor us Pod Bean? Reach out to us at Poly Amateur

Daniel: hour@gmail.com. And they try to convince you that they're important by like, baking in Pod bean only statistics into your like, reporting.

Daniel: So it's like you have one new follower this week on Pod Bean.

Nichole: Is that themselves? It's themselves every time. Is it,

Daniel: is it Tom from POD being?

Nichole: What's the first, uh, segment today?

Daniel: Huh? It's a new one. Oh, oh, fun. We're gonna do it. I think we're gonna do it

Laurel: we could, we could do it.

Daniel: You wanna do it?

Laurel: So Sean, sent us, he sent poly amateur hour a fun little video that begged the question. Monogamy. Are you okay? Okay. monogamy. Are you okay?

Laurel: in which we find something from the mono ophere uhhuh that makes us question if monogamy is really doing okay.

Laurel: Oh god. Okay. Are you hanging in there?

Daniel: Um, the, the, the deal was that looking for like exclusively poly content. We just started to get depressed. 'cause there's so little out there. Yeah. Then we realized toxic monogamy is like a non-stop stream. All we have to do is just turn the spigot and the slop comes out.

Laurel: Mm mm-hmm.

Laurel: So, the main premise of the video that Sean sent was about, um, was really about a dating app called Raw that was accidentally posting a lot of really private information about their users on the internet. What. Like, and the whole concept behind this app, I guess is like, oh, like you won't be so filtered.

Laurel: Like it'll be more real, you'll find more real people on it. So like you do things like daily selfies front and rear cam daily selfies or whatever. And also like live location tracking. What,

Daniel: yeah. I look at it as like they're trying to make a dating app like a nonstop capture.

Daniel: Like prove that you're not a fucking robot every moment of your life. To the robot.

Laurel: Yes. In your pocket. Yeah. Anyways, a bunch of information including people's, like locations were being posted on the internet. Posted. Posted where? Like on their website or something. I don't know. It didn't require any hacking to get to.

Laurel: It was like readily available. , like, oops, they never tested their internet security protocols and shit. What, this isn't, this isn't actually the main topic. What

Laurel: so even better. Um, the same company who makes this, app has also come out with a concept for a ring. Excuse me. Mm-hmm. and much like a lot of other health, tecos, sphere rings, it's supposed to monitor like your heart rate and stuff like that.

Mm-hmm. Um,

Laurel: but it's largely, um, it's largely being covered in the media as, um.

Laurel: A ring to know if your partner is cheating. What? It's so fucked.

Daniel: So the idea is it's like one of those aura rings or whatever, right? Where it like monitors your, your heart rate and your temperature and stuff, but you share the data again with this complete breakdown of privacy.

Daniel: Privacy. You're sharing it with your partner.

Nichole: Why?

Daniel: So they can know if you ever experience a level of joy that they are uncomfortable with outside of their presence. What,

Laurel: I'll read a little bit about it from the article that also quotes the, . The creator Conceptor. I don't know. Um, the idea, this is a quote, the idea behind the ring was to give couples more ways to explore each other's feelings on a deeper level and build more trust.

Laurel: Anderson says, almost 50% of marriages now end in divorce. We would like to build the ring as a symbol of trust. Again,

Daniel: I trust you 'cause you're chained to the fucking radiator.

Laurel: Yeah. So how will the raw ring work? Although the smart ring isn't something you can buy yet, Anderson has detailed a plan for how it'll work.

Laurel: The blueprint of the raw ring includes a heart rate monitor and skin temperature sensor, an accelerometer and gyroscope to detect movement and noise canceling microphone to analyze shifts in voice tone. Additionally, the ring will feature a dual level AI one processor to interpret real-time signals and biometric data and one cloud-based system to look for deeper trends.

Laurel: Over time, the rings AI would reportedly be able to tell the difference between a workout nervous energy and arousal by analyzing multiple physiological cues. Anderson explained,

Daniel: but I'm usually doing all three of those things at once, so isn't it going to really confuse

Laurel: it? Yes.

Laurel: Again, this idea might sound like relationship surveillance, but Anderson assures the ring is about mutual trust and it's flexible to the user, and then goes on to explain basically like theoretically, you can choose what is or isn't being shared.

Daniel: Now here is more evidence today. That we need to start filming the podcast because Nicole's reactions, her facial expressions are fucking internet gold.

Laurel: Oh man. Yeah. I would gift the shit out of that.

Daniel: You know how she was obsessed with the guy on any given season of Bachelorette who just makes , the wild reacts. The wild reacts. Yeah. There's

Laurel: talking about like film or TV stereotypes, like how everyone has to be a character.

Laurel: There is always the individual that is the caricature of wild reaction face.

Daniel: Nicole, we found it for you.

Laurel: That's me. You're

wild React

Daniel: guy.

Laurel: are they usually the, the most like. Temperate decent of the people because they're just like observing everything and being like, what the fuck is happening here?

Nichole: They're so toward the bottom of the pack when it comes to who she likes. Yeah. But they keep him around week to week so that they For the reacts. Yeah. So they can capture the reacts. Anyway, this ha, we have to get back to the issue at hand. Get back to the ring. Okay. I need a timeline. Did this ring It doesn't actually exist yet.

Nichole: It doesn't exist yet. Okay. It's

Laurel: a concept in the mind of the co-creator of this dating app.

Nichole: Did they unveil this concept after the news about the leak came out?

Daniel: Yeah. They're like, we just attracted a bunch of fucking stalkers. This is our audience base.

Nichole: I don't actually know. Yeah. I don't, I don't know what the, I have to know because I feel like it would just be doubling down on being super okay with other people knowing your shit. Like I just, I, I, I don't, yeah. Okay. This also fucking reminds me of, the Untucked shirt. Do you guys remember this?

Nichole: Have I talked about this on the podcast? I don't think so. It's not

Daniel: You're haunted by the Untucked Show. Okay.

Nichole: But there, there's this company like 12 years ago that was, it's, I think it's called Untuck It. Right? I think you know what you're talking about. And this guy was like. So I solved the problem of tucking shirts.

Nichole: You just don't tuck 'em.

Clip: That's a cool shirt. Yeah, it's a TC top from TC Tuggers. The only shirt that's got, uh, a little knob on the front so you can just pull it out when it gets trapped on your belly. That's very cool.

Nichole: Yep. And like he changed the hems of the shirt. I totally remember this. Yeah. And I was like, that wasn't a problem.

Nichole: There are so many other actual fucking problems. This wasn't one of 'em. Not knowing my partner's heart rate is not a problem.

Daniel: Okay, you guys, I understand that this is a, a super toxic, fucked up product, but, but. I wanna appropriate it for poly use

Laurel: mm-hmm.

Daniel: As a cock play thing. Oh. So, so hear me out.

Nichole: Okay. Okay. Okay. Right. Yeah. Alright.

Nichole: Yeah,

Daniel: you, you give your partner one of these rings and they like, go out on the town, you know, prowling and, um, you hook it up in your house. It could just be like a specific, like a phone notification that comes on. Mm-hmm. Like a specific sound.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: But you could maybe like, find a way to hook it up to like some kind of Rube Goldberg machine.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Uh, pots and pans. Clanging a player. Piano.

Nichole: Piano. Okay.

Daniel: Middle of the night they start fucking, your refrigerator door starts opening and closing the

Laurel: why. Why would you, why like to add to the humiliation? Yeah. Of like, yeah. Like you can't even sleep in peace. You're. Your spouse is out. I was gonna

Nichole: say, I don't understand how this is at all kinky.

Nichole: Like

Daniel: it pulls the sheet off of you and then, and then, and then, and flops you outta bed like a spatula.

Laurel: And if you're really, if, if you're really prepared, you just go to sleep with your pants around your ankles so you get extra humiliated. The most embarrassing position, the most embarrassing position anyone could ever exist in.

Nichole: It could be appropriated for cuck play for sure.

Nichole: That is the only legitimate use I could think of for something like this.

Nichole: But this is what I don't, but what is the actual purpose? Like I don't understand

Laurel: So my interpretation one, this is wildly delusional, but it seems like the creator thinks that they can, one, like elevate the sanctity of the symbol of the ring that has now been destroyed because divorce rates are so high.

Laurel: By encouraging couples to mutually engage in an activity where they track each other so closely to prove that they are trustworthy,

Daniel: does this get to the heart? Of toxic monogamy because you are literally upset about joy, physical joy, like you are monitoring like a physical response. And it's not just, that they're like cheating.

Daniel: I feel like for the ring to actually be working, they have to be aroused and enjoying it.

Laurel: Yeah. I feel like there is no, world in which this ring could do the things that it claims, it could do like parse out emotions,

Nichole: but also why would you need that? That's what I don't, I I'm truly, I'm so baffled because trust is built on.

Laurel: Faith of the heart.

Nichole: interrupting you 'cause we don't need to No. Yeahing more of that on, um, it's built on a mu mutual exchange of like thoughts and emotions and feelings. And you taking what that person is saying at face value.

Laurel: Yes.

Laurel: Right? Yes.

Nichole: Like, and not having to dig deeper and trusting them when they say something. 'cause it could be used the opposite way too. You could be like hooking up with your husband or wife in your monogamous relationship and it shows that you're not aroused

Nichole: yes. But also the first thing I think of, is like, this is just setting up parameters for domestic violence. Like Oh yeah. It's

Laurel: the only people who would actually use this thing. Yeah. Are abusive people.

Nichole: Yeah. So why would you give them a tool?

Laurel: Yeah.

Laurel: It's fucked.

Nichole: It's so fucked. Also, I'm sorry, the app raw really sounds like people who are looking to raw dog. It sounds like

Daniel: I mean there, there are apps for the rhythm method, but that's a whole other thing.

Laurel: Should we, should we do the poly version that's just called fluid Bonded

Laurel: Gross.

Laurel: It's insane. It's absolutely book wild.

Nichole: It's to sell information. It's literally just another way to like physically capture information of our physical bodies or Yes. You know, our movements or whatever in order to sell that information to companies, to advertise to us. Like that's,

Laurel: that's the money maker.

Laurel: Literally all it

Nichole: is. They're not gonna

Laurel: make it off of fucking AI ring hardware, that's for sure. No. Um, they like, everything about this company strikes me as like in this episode of the Real World, this is like the Toxic Evil Bay area startup. Yeah. That is just like, how do we make as much money as possible, but kind of disguise it in what we think like Zals want give It's so, yeah.

Nichole: The patina of like strengthening relationships or like using therapy Speak. Yes. To sell a piece of hardware that is ultimately like not for the thing that they're selling,

Laurel: it's fucking bad shit. Oh my God. I do wanna clarify for the listener that monogamy is okay.

Nichole: Yeah, it's fine.

Laurel: It's fine. It's just not

Nichole: this

Laurel: monomy. Just not this.

Daniel: Yeah. Not my monogamation.

Laurel: I made little tiny picket signs.

Daniel: You know, I've done creative work for Silicon Valley founders

mm-hmm.

Daniel: Before, And I've done creative work for people on performance marketing teams too, who just get so into the algorithm, the algorithm of what they think people want. What they think people want to buy.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: And they enter the state of like paralysis, where they are only able to say what they think you want to hear, but they are so uncertain of what you want to hear that it is going in a thousand directions.

Laurel: Yeah. And they're waiting, they're waiting for a computer to tell them what it is. They're gonna interpret it as what it is you want to hear, but it's really just what the algorithm made up.

Daniel: Yeah. It's like, it's like, um, a, a filthy or boro.

Daniel: Is that, is that like a, is that a, is that a position? You dirty? Do you wanna try dirty? Sn you dirty Sn Do you wanna try the filthy or Bouras?

But it is, it is. Yes.

Daniel: This could be a whole other, uh, branding for this ring. Filthy Ora Boris.

Nichole: Oh man. Okay.

Daniel: I feel like for this segment, our general segue should be something about running as fast as we can. Like, instead of move along home, it's like, Hey, do you guys want to fucking bail? Hey, let's blow this pople stand.

Laurel: Yeah, but we can't blow. Oh yeah. We might get caught.

Laurel: My ring might report me to somebody. Laurel is aroused and nervous. Your ring's just going off

Nichole: constantly. It would be, it would be. God, that's so fucked. Anyways, what's next?

Daniel: Uh, we got a question right under the wire today. Sometimes if you time it just right. Send us a question on a recording day.

Daniel: It goes hot off the presses into our mouths.

Laurel: Mm. If you have a question for us, you can send it to us via our website, anonymously poly amateur hour.com. You can email us at ppol gba at poly Amateur hour@gmail.com, or you can DM us on Instagram at Poly Amateur Hour

Daniel: for our segment. Ask the amateurs,

Say no way. Say no way. What?

Laurel: wait, I just had an idea and then I lost it. Fuck,

Nichole: that's a really good idea. Did it have to do with Enya

Laurel: we should have Enya on the podcast.

Nichole: she is probably a solo poly queen.

Laurel: I believe that

Nichole: lives by herself in a castle with 18 cats.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: Wow. She absolutely has lovers for sure. Yeah, she has to.

Daniel: Yeah. But she calls them all Enya

Daniel: and it keep, and it keeps her sense of like, identity, like really rich and open. Like she's like treats everybody really well. 'cause she's treating them like herself because Enya deserves kindness.

Laurel: We know that. Yeah.

Daniel: Our question today comes via our anonymous website. Can we talk about codependency and polyamory?

Daniel: Hmm. I have a history of codependent relationships as the caretaker in my prior monogamous relationships, and as I enter my polyamorous journey.

Daniel: I'm trying to be more conscious about codependent dynamics, but wondering how it may or may not show up differently when you theoretically have multiple relationships.

Hmm.

Daniel: Well I find that it just helps if I just make self-deprecating jokes about my codependency tendencies on the podcast and then, and then it doesn't really exist. It's just, it's just a fun time little jokey thing.

Laurel: Then it's just a cute little joke and we don't have to think about it. I have definitely had codependent tendencies.

Laurel: I still do for sure.

Daniel: that is one of my favorite nineties bands, by the way. Codependent tendencies. Yeah. Fuck yeah. Be a good one.

Laurel: I think there is some level that polyamory has helped me with it. In the sense that, it is harder to engage in some of my codependent bullshit without pissing off other partners.

Laurel: Interesting. Okay. Like, and like, well I have in some ways, and it has pissed off Daniel, like when I had other partners who were, in various degrees of crisis or diction mode, and I was like, okay, I'm a caretaker. Mm-hmm. Um. I'm going to allow you to subsume me. Yeah. Which then makes me unavailable to my other partners.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah. it creates a, a much more instant feedback than if I were just in a monogamous relationship. Oof. Like, if I were in a monogamous relationship, which I have been in, like codependent, monogamous relationships and because, um, it's a lot less likely for your friends to be like, oh, I haven't seen you in a hot minute.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. or you haven't been as available to me. uh, you're not getting as much instantaneous feedback, so it goes on for months or years. So before someone is like, Hey, where are you? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Daniel: Maybe we are again to insular and codependent. 'cause I wrote down the same thing. Did you? I did.

Laurel: About my

Daniel: No, just in ge.

Daniel: It's not all about you Laurel, Jesus. Um,

Laurel: but could it

Daniel: be about how it is harder to be, codependent when you have multiple relationships. Because what, what I said is like, Nicole would never really let me get severely codependent with you, and you would never let me get severely codependent with Nicole.

Daniel: Mm. But then I was like, wait, is this just like nuclear deterrence kind of thing where there's just like a little bit of codependency in all directions like, you just can't get the codependency outta balance.

Daniel: Right.

Laurel: Yeah, you start asking like what is the like threshold of codependency? Like when is it an issue? When is it actually considered codependency? And I guess a lot of it would also depend on the tolerance of your other partners.

Daniel: Do we have like different codependency thresholds in non-monogamous relationships?

Laurel: Than monogamous relationships?

Daniel: If our last segment was any evidence, like if

Laurel: that's, but I don't think, I don't think healthy, functional, monogamous people want that. No,

Nichole: to answer, I believe, this is one of the questions. Codependency does show up in polyamorous relationships.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: And I would caution this person from thinking otherwise, I would caution this person from thinking like, just because, because I have multiple relationships, I won't have time to be codependent with any of them.

Nichole: Right. I would also encourage this person to maybe look at their own codependency, because if this is a pattern of getting into codependent monogamous relationships,

Nichole: inviting more potential partners in is inviting potential for various degrees of codependency amongst each of them.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: So it feels like a little oxygen mask. Like you gotta take care of yourself first before you can really be with another person and much less be with multiple people.

Daniel: And it'll probably be more difficult for them to succeed at non-monogamy if they have this codependent tendency, if they're bringing to the table.

Daniel: I want to be the caretaker. They're going to very quickly run up against some walls.

Laurel: maybe I'm naive, but asking the question seems to reveal a certain level of self-awareness and either willingness or indication that they are doing some of that work.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Laurel: Like polyamory doesn't mean you're not gonna do that at all. a relationship is a relationship. like, I think there, There's a degree to which we all sort of enact our, our patterns over and over again.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Maybe there's somebody who learns their lesson all at once and never does it again. But I feel like my trajectory is more like, okay, I learned this lesson.

Mm-hmm.

Laurel: And then I do what I think is right, and then I learn another lesson of like, it wasn't just X, Y, Z, it was also 1, 2, 3.

Laurel: And it's like incremental.

Nichole: Totally. But I think daniel, I think I would challenge like Laurel and I not letting you become more codependent. That

Daniel: was kind of a half a joke.

Nichole: Well, just because like one that's codependency and it like, that's another kind of form of codependency if I'm like, not allowing you to be codependent Laurel. But I think also like it depends on, and kinda what you guys were talking about, the tolerance level of your other partners. Yeah. Like personally, if I were in the situation and I saw a partner being codependent with another partner, honestly I would just bounce.

Nichole: I'd be like, well this person, I can see your codependent tendencies. I don't really wanna engage in that behavior. I'm going, yeah,

Daniel: But you have like seen codependent behavior from me with Laurel before and you just called me on it. You just said, Hey, hey hon. This is some like codependent behavior.

Daniel: Maybe look at that. And it was just really helpful.

Nichole: I guess you're right.

Daniel: Yeah. You are much more insightful and wise than you knew.

Nichole: I guess. I, I guess I was just thinking like of like a new relationship. Like a new relationship, yeah. If that came up, like, this person is, from what I gather, is newer to polyamory.

Nichole: Yeah. Yeah. Daniel, I called you out on it because

Daniel: you're preparing to bounce still.

Laurel: Just so it's not like a total shock. No, I just to see your suitcases lined up by the front door. She wants,

Daniel: she wants to help me do some work before she leaves.

Laurel: It's like, it's like, what you do in like national parks, you leave it better than you found it. Exactly.

Nichole: I think I just, I entered a 12 step program for codependency when I was 23.

Laurel: Mm.

Nichole: And I, I have the experience of swinging wildly the other way.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: And completely avoiding any kind of entanglement with anyone.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: So guess I felt comfortable with you, Daniel, like calling out that behavior because I recognized it as, as things that I used to do.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Yeah. to echo you, Nicole, I don't think that you should expect your codependent tendencies to be curbed checked or to vanish. Simply because you're changing your relationship style. That said, , I do feel like the expectations or the kind of thresholds of what is codependency in a non monogamous relationship tend to look different

Daniel: than in monogamous relationships. To my experience. I feel like monogamous relationships, you're kind of expected to come with some codependency. Like it is the, uh, defacto attire. Like you wear black to funerals and white to garden parties and you wear codependency to your monogamous relationship.

Laurel: Yeah. ' Perpetual escalation is sort of a trademark of monogamy. Yes.

Nichole: Oh, that's good.

Laurel: Thank you.

Nichole: yeah, that makes a lot of sense that that would foster a lot of codependent behavior

Laurel: Yeah. And it looks like love, it looks like your relationship is healthy and, and we were like romanticized that quite a bit within monogamy of being inseparable, being soulmates.

Laurel: Yep. Mm-hmm. Um, my best friend. Yeah, exactly.

Daniel: And even in the most swish of non-monogamous relationships, in any degree of non-monogamous relationships, it feels to me there is some emphasis put on autonomy as a tenant of the relationship. Like autonomy is part of it and monogamy. You don't think about that.

Daniel: Like people don't enter into monogamous relationships with personal autonomy as one of the things that they feel like needs to be addressed traditionally. Like it's not, it's not part of the kid of parts when you, like they hand you your fucking monogamy toolkit when you get outta high school.

Daniel: Like that's like monogamy

Laurel: four 10. Yeah. That's like a graduate level. Exactly.

Nichole: This is why I feel like they're like famous women out there that seem to never find a husband, quote unquote. I think it's because they're just like hyper autonomous. Yes. Yeah. And they know who they are and they're self-possessed it can fit into a monogamous relationship for sure, but that's kind of the rare one,

Laurel: right?

Laurel: Yeah.

Laurel: I don't know if it's like a cheat code. To be like, well, if it's hard for me to do something for myself, like if it's hard for me to be less codependent because it'll better me, I can curb my codependency because I know it'll be better for other people in my life.

Laurel: Oh,

Daniel: wow. You're like doing a, like you've got a codependency paradox time loop. Wow. They're like, I'm not gonna be codependent just to help you.

Nichole: Wow, wow. Aw.

Daniel: This is the worst Star Trek episode ever.

Daniel: Shall we move along home?

Yeah. Yeah. Gi up.

Laurel: What's next, folks? I don't know. You are the keeper of the keeping. Yeah. I have no idea. We're codependent on you. I'm just entirely dependent on you to direct. I'm the

Daniel: fucking podcast caretaker. You guys. Come on

Laurel: in our new podcast studio, I'll have big screens up that project, the question really big on them, and then also it's like coming up next and it'll prepare us for the next segment that's coming up.

Laurel: And

Daniel: you're like my friend who was really upset about our karaoke party because we didn't have screens with the, words, with the lyrics so that they could,

Nichole: oh, you know what's really weird? Like Yeah, everyone had their own personal screens. It's called your phone. You just Google it. You Google the lyrics, Google it, pull up numb nuts,

Daniel: I just know that she doesn't listen to the podcast, so I'm really okay with leaving that in.

Laurel: She, she made a feedback box, like she made a little box with a slit in the top, and then she wrote out her complaint and put it in the box, then left.

Daniel: Um, and by request today from my friend it's. Is this Polly? Oh,

Nichole: was this really like her?

Nichole: I didn't mean to get so mean. I just,

Daniel: we'll edit you down to the exact correct amount of meanness.

Nichole: All right. What are we doing,

Daniel: prince? Not exactly one specific song, but like Prince as a concept. What we knew you would hate this. No, it was in the notes.

Nichole: You're, you're, you theorizing that Prince himself was Polly. No,

Daniel: no, because I knew that you would really hate that.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: So I'm in a, in a kind of a, a middle zone here.

Nichole: Okay.

Daniel: Not Prince as an individual. But Prince, prince as an artistic force or concept like, 'cause you know, prince is more than just a person. He is a symbol.

Mm-hmm.

Daniel: He is a, a vibe. It's like the Prince Cinematic universe. It

Laurel: Okay.

Daniel: The PCU.

Laurel: The PCU.

Laurel: 'cause none of us can really know Prince. We just know the simulacrum. Okay. The image that we all perceive as Prince is that poly.

Daniel: You don't understand how Prince is more than a, than a person like Madonna. Okay. Or Jesus. Exactly. Any one name person.

Nichole: Jesus absolutely has two names. I use it as a declarative all the time.

Daniel: Yeah. Beyonce has two names too. But you never use the second one anymore. Jesus has moved beyond. He's like, shed his corporeal body. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nichole: But are we talking about if the song is Holly? Sorry, I don't understand what this, it's like

Laurel: exhibit A in the case that Daniel is presenting to the court. Okay.

Nichole: Alright. You prove to me Yeah, that's that. This is Polly and then I get to be judged. I love this. I love this. Yeah. Great.

Daniel: Done. You guys loved Red String Daniel so much on the Love Shack episode.

Nichole: Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: That I thought I would bring him back.

Nichole: Great. Okay. You should have just led with that.

Daniel: Alright.

Laurel: We are

Daniel: gonna look at two Prince songs.

Nichole: Okay.

Daniel: Um, which is especially designed to fuck with my OCD.

Daniel: Because it's not one, it's not three. Did you do your ERP hyperventilate? Um, so first up, we are going to be looking at a song from his 1980 album. Dirty Mind called when you were mine.

Daniel: So I interpret this song to. Be about the way that love can blossom when ownership is taken out of the equation, that he loves this partner more than when she was his, when she belonged to him.

Daniel: Um, there's even these instances where there's somebody sleeping with them in the same bed. There is like some kind of actually group dynamic that's mentioned when he was in between us in the bed. So there is like temporal overlap. It's not that he's not with this person anymore because she's no longer his, he loves them even more because they are no longer his property.

Daniel: And, um, that has allowed the full force of his prince like love to bloom in all of its power.

Nichole: Interesting. Wow, that's an interesting interpretation.

Daniel: Bullshit. But

Nichole: no, I, I think it's, I think it's a, it's a, it's a bold interpretation. I don't think that's the original intent of the song, obviously, but like,

Daniel: because, because you're friends with Prince?

Nichole: No, because who's more friends with Prince? I mean, the way that I interpret it as a person who was in a relationship that let this person walk all over them, invite other people into their relationship, and then eventually move on with that other person. And now this person is mourning the loss of that relationship.

Nichole: I let you wear all of my clothes. You invited all these people over. You didn't even have the decency to change the sheet. Like he was sleeping in between the two of us. Because you wanted him there and not because I wanted him there. Like

Daniel: he's saying though, that she is going with another guy.

Nichole: Yeah,

Daniel: but he doesn't care

Daniel: because he loves her. I can totally see the codependent shit from the relationship, but I see this relationship as having changed and now they are being in a different dynamic.

Nichole: Interesting.

Laurel: is it really like, I love you, I don't care that you're, you see other people or is it like, I love you so much, I'm overlooking, I'm like ignoring that you're seeing other people I.

Daniel: You tell me if you're such good friends with Prince.

Nichole: I think, I think he's saying, I love you more than this person.

Laurel: I love you more than your other boyfriend.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: Oh,

Nichole: anyways, I can see your interpretation for sure.

Daniel: but the red string is pulled taut in your opinion.

Nichole: Well, apparently there's an Exhibit B.

Daniel: Are you ready? Sure. Yeah. Give us exhibit B. All right. Exhibit B from the 1982 album 1999. Mm-hmm. We've got

Alright. All right.

Nichole: What is your argument?

Daniel: All right. Let me limber up. Let me loosen up. Yeah. Stretch it. Yeah. this, I feel like is another vibe, a song, uh, Uhhuh like we were talking about, looking at things that are a little less, literally and explicitly mm-hmm.

Daniel: Polly, but just have like overwhelmingly Polly vibes. And I feel like this is in the same constellation as Love Shack. In fact, it's so powerful that the, the light just dimmed for a moment. Yeah, I saw

Laurel: that. It's overwhelmed by the aura of Prince. Um, he's

Nichole: here.

Laurel: Jesus, prince blink, blink once if you're poly.

Daniel: , So I think this is like, prince vibes in a fucking hypo spray here. This is like the, this is, condensed. Prince Essence. Essence, And prince extract. I'm gonna put that in my

Laurel: cookies.

Daniel: And he like made an acronym for it. Dance Music. Sex. Romance.

Laurel: Aw.

Daniel: Aw. Yeah. This is the only kind of like entrancing, , internet content that I need is, is just to watch prints for my dm.

Daniel: My, uh, DM Sr Sr. Yeah. Oh yeah. , He does say, on second, listen, I can't tell whether it is a declaration to fuck as many people as possible or to disregard the opinions of the public.

Daniel: Screw the masses.

Oh, I see. Uhhuh. I think it's both. Yeah. Yeah. If it's Prince, it's both. Yeah.

Daniel: Oh, he's brilliant. Brilliant. Wheels within wheels. So screw the masses. Mm-hmm. I just want to never get bored. Like he's telling people to like, take the clothes off. Go to the fucking where? Where? In a laundry. In your lingerie?

Daniel: At a restaurant. Oh, just a restaurant.

Nichole: I would 1000% do that actually.

Laurel: Yeah. It's like my ex-girlfriend.

Daniel: Definitely did. I mean, it's more all purpose sexual liberation in all fucking directions at once.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: , But I feel like it includes polyamory in that

Laurel: I think that's my ideal form of polyamory. I always, I always gripe about this, about, you know, polyamorous folks trying so hard to fit into an acceptable, palatable paradigm of monogamy.

Laurel: Like

Daniel: if we could just scrub the slut out.

Laurel: Yeah. Essentially. Mm-hmm. but my ideal form is a lot sluttier than that

Daniel: slop the slut on

Laurel: for, forget about respectability. I don't, I don't need that.

Daniel: Like Prince is the poly therapist that you really want.

Yeah. Yeah. He's just telling you to

Nichole: bang everybody.

Yeah. He is like,

Laurel: don't worry about it. Just bang them.

Nichole: Yeah. I, I think this song is inclusive of polyamory. I don't know that it is polyamorous.

Daniel: Okay. So I guess my case is really a lot of circumstantial evidence that I'm bringing to you.

Laurel: But, , circumstantial evidence. Isn't the red herring we're, meant to believe it is , based on TV lawyer shows, most evidence is circumstantial and it doesn't actually mean that it is, admissible.

Laurel: Inadmissible. It depends. Dismissible. It's not dismissible. Just 'cause it's circumstantial.

Daniel: It is. It's not a criminal trial, it's a civil trial. Right. Yeah. So we just need a kind of an overwhelming, preponderance of evidence.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: We don't need hard physical evidence. Oh God.

Laurel: Like, if there were gonna be like a musical mascot, a polyamory.

Laurel: It's Prince.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. I guess this is what I'm asking is if, if you were to choose Yeah. Like somebody to symbolize polyamory for you, who's like the president of polyamory musically, like it's gotta be Prince, right?

Nichole: Well, now all I can think of is Prince and he's consuming my thoughts.

Nichole: You

Laurel: brainwashed us into thinking nothing but Prince. So I can't,

Nichole: I can't think of any other, any other possible poly president, because I'm just thinking about Prince right now.

Daniel: Prince the first poll president.

Oh, I mean, like,

Daniel: are you thinking of, uh, Mr. Jiggles?

I'm not.

Nichole: I'm literally still thinking about Prince.

Laurel: It'll be days before she recovers from this.

Laurel: I mean, yes. I think the persona of Prince, the music of Prince, the theatrics of Prince are all very poly vibey. Mm-hmm. Yes, yes, for sure. Yes. Agreed.

Daniel: Yeah. He is the world's boyfriend.

Laurel: Yeah,

Daniel: yeah,

Laurel: yeah. Does that make Prince and I like eternally connected in some way? If I'm the world's girlfriend and he's the world's boyfriend, Aw.

Mm-hmm.

Laurel: Hmm. I'm gonna go write, write the symbol in my notebook over and over again.

Daniel: Are are you just By being with me, Laurel, are you just trying to get to the ideal platonic form of Prince? Short, funky.

Laurel: Oh my God, Daniel, I love you so much. You are giving yourself so much credit.

Laurel: You just using me. 'cause I'm so much like Prince,

Laurel: that that was the boldest assertion you have made. Yes. Yeah. All episode.

Daniel: My string just broke.

Daniel: Hey, you know, squad goals, whatever, you know, squad goals.

Daniel: I wanna be your guys' Prince.

Nichole: Let. But not like Prince Charming. Just Prince. Just Prince, yeah. Yes. Yeah. If we keep talking about Prince, I'm gonna say the thing that I wanna say, every time I think about Prince, oh, what is it? Fuck. Justin Timberlake. What did

he do?

Daniel: What did he do to Prince?

Nichole: He had alcohol and meat served in Prince's house after Prince died

Daniel: Oh, this is like a, A hogs in the temple, like Yeah. Hanukkah story.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Like Justin Timberlake's in there. Fucking pissing in the oil amp.

Oh my God. I don't remember that part of the story,