Daniel: I don't know why I have a metronome that counts us in.

Nichole: No, it feels very

Laurel: official. I feel like we're gonna start jamming,

Song: Talkin bout love and sex and power, All our polyamateur hour.

Daniel: there's some secret rhythm that would Unlock this all as a song if we can just if we can write the the music to go along with all of our spoken word

Nichole: Also Laurel speaking of songs you have a new Waiting song that you do.

Nichole: Oh, what is it? So just now Stairs you're doing Did it did it Did it did it so i'm like california

Laurel: I'm, not even like conscious that it's happening.

Daniel: It's happening to you

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: The song finds you. Yeah, you're

Laurel: just the conduit. Yeah, I'm a vessel for the divine song.

Daniel: We're all Cylons waiting for our Bob Dylan jam.

Nichole: Daniel and I are watching Battlestar Galactica right now. Does that activate them? Yeah. Spoiler. Oh God! Oh no! That's like four seasons in. We're spoiling Battlestar Galactica for the men. I mean, I would say, like, you've had time to watch it, but I haven't watched it. Fair, yeah. So, I don't want to spoil it for anybody else.

Daniel: I think knowing that there's an arbitrary Bob Dylan song, like, interposed does not ruin anything in Battlestar Galactica. If anything, it's the carrot that would keep me watching. Waiting, waiting.

Laurel: I feeL like I have to have a Battlestar Galactica refresher,

Daniel: saying that you need a Battlestar Galactica refresher is like, , like you're gonna just have a drug binge, and we won't see you for like a week.

Laurel: We won't. Maybe that's what I need.

Daniel: Watch simulated stress rather than your own.

Laurel: Yeah. That's how I dissociate from my own stress. Watch other people's stress.

Daniel: Which reminds me, you have a crazy sexy Polly story for this week, right? How does that pivot? How

Laurel: does that pivot? What a great pivot. Hey, you're stressed out. Yeah, I have a crazy sexy Polly story.

Song: Music, sexy, call me

Laurel: It's the, the crazy sexy part of Polly where you're like, Oh God, I got to remember to tell all of my partners that I got dumped this week.

Laurel: Cause you sent, you sent it to one and then you're like, Oh, I should tell so and so, Oh, I should also tell so and so, Oh, so and so is going to get a kick out of this

Laurel: also. On that same vein, I got divorced today. Yay! And I made sure to tell everybody. And everyone was like, I thought you were already divorced. I mean, kind of you weren't. Today was the paper. Today was, yeah, the official email from the lawyers. There was a judge and the judge acknowledged there's like a there's a uh a senior person in the patriarchy

Laurel: So what I found out is he's not actually even a judge He is he is a county commissioner Is that what they do?

Laurel: As acting judge. The judge was just busy and he was like, acting judge.

Daniel: Aw, they let him play while the judge is out. I'll

Laurel: take care

of this. Yeah, yeah, I'll do it. Don't worry about this. So fuck, I'm gonna find out that it actually isn't real.

Nichole: So, Commissioner Gordon. Yeah. In the Spi he's Spider Man, right? Is this one of his duties?

Nichole: I think isn't he Batman? Batman?

Daniel: COmmissioner

Daniel: Gordon is not Batman.

Laurel: He's not Batman, but he's in Batman. Don't

Daniel: you spoil it for someone.

Laurel: He's got the big red phone. And he calls the

Batman. Famously, they put up a

Nichole: thing in the sky.

Famously. They

Nichole: don't call Batman.

No, but in the, in the Adam West Batman, there's like a big red phone.

Daniel: Oh yeah. I think you're right. There's the bat phone.

Does, wait, does Batman answer the bat phone?

Daniel: Being a Batman just means that you have all the same, like, devices that you have in your normal life, except that they're bat devices. So this is a bat microphone.

Yeah. Yeah. I just have a cave. Yeah. Batman has a bat cave.

Nichole: Anyways, I was just like, the only other commissioner I've ever heard of is Commissioner Gordon. And I was like, does he act as judge also and decree divorces? Maybe.

Daniel: So, uh,

Daniel: What kind of busy work did you have to get up to for your breakup?

Laurel: Busy work?

Daniel: Yeah. So you had to tell everybody, you didn't need a spreadsheet or anything. You know, you know who to call. I

Laurel: remembered.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: Mostly.

Laurel: Mostly I remembered. Is it bad to like? Copy and paste text to all of your partners. No, I think

Nichole: that's a hack.

Pro tip. Pro tip, noobs.

Daniel: As long as you're not, as long as you're not copy and pasting I love you, babe, I think you're good.

Daniel: What about nudes? Sharing the same nudes? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. That's called your, that's your back catalog.

Daniel: Your

Nichole: bat catalogue? It just, it just

Daniel: Batman's moves come from the bat catalogue. Those are the ones he sends to Robin.

Daniel: Welcome to Poly Amateur Hour. . I'm always the, the last like, like, you know, eh, anybody gonna do it? And I like, always lose the game of chicken. That's because as far as who's going to intro, intro this, that's because I do not

read your eyeballs

Laurel: that way.

Daniel: When I, when I, huh, huh?

Laurel: Yeah. I always think you're propositioning us for sex

Laurel: And I'm like, not now.

Nichole: And I. I'm just lazy and I do not want to take control. This is the agreement we have with Nicole.

Laurel: It is actually. I show up, you show

up and talk.

Daniel: Our, our scripting protocol is really revealing a lot about our sex lives, actually, on this podcast. It actually

Nichole: is because I'm also like. I am very submissive, and so I do have

Laurel: to just show up.

Laurel: Hello, I've arrived. You're welcome.

Daniel: I am the princess and the pillow.

Daniel: What do you think? About going on to uh, to the question, the Q& A.

Song: If you got questions, don't demur, it's time to ask the amateurs.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Let's

Laurel: do it. What's the question? You're the question bearer this time.

Daniel: I am. I went and got one just the way that, uh, Laurel goes and gets us all burritos.

Daniel: Wink.

Nichole: It's not insight joke. She actually got us burritos. Yeah.

Laurel: I go to the, I go to the, burrito shop and I say, three burritos. And they're like, three? And I say, yes, three.

Daniel: And then you start reciting that, uh, um, Britney Spears song.

Daniel: See episode three for reference.

Daniel: Alright, what's our

Laurel: question? So

Daniel: we didn't have any good questions in our, like, Woah,

Laurel: woah, woah,

Daniel: woah, woah. We ran out.

Laurel: No, we had good questions. You just poo pooed them because you're a poo pooer. Poo

Daniel: pooer.

Laurel: You're poo pooery.

Daniel: It's pronounced poo pooer.

Daniel: We had this joke where we were talking about how the more pretentious somebody is, the more they probably want you to spit in their mouth.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah. And Daniel is asking for it.

Daniel: So, um, I uh, texted my good friend. Should we change his name to, oh,

Nichole: yes.

Daniel: Stubert. Stubert. So I texted my friend Stubert, who I knew had been kind of flirting around the edges of polyamory for a while, and I know that, you know, he will give us a couple really meaty paragraphs

Daniel: because, like me, he wants somebody to spit in his mouth. so, I will just read this verbatim.

Daniel: Hi. I'm polycurious. I feel really intellectually resonant with polyamory and relationship anarchy. It just makes sense to me, and I can see how, if more people were acclimated to it, the world could be a more beautiful place. Less jealousy, more love, more fulfillment, more resilience, more community, etc.

Daniel: I notice some parts of me that are naturally inclined to a more open way of living. Like wanting to have deep emotional intimacy with a lot of people and not elevating my sexual partner to a higher status than my friends. However, there are some aspects of polyamory that turn me off. Like the idea of actually having sexual relationships with multiple people at the same time.

Daniel: That still just sounds scary and maybe unstable and messy and to me kind of shallow. I wonder how you got into poly and why you stay in it. Is it a natural inclination, where that's just the easiest and most natural way for you to be? Do you think that some people are just naturally drawn one way or the other, some naturally geared for poly or some for monogamy?

Daniel: Or rather, is the decision driven by an ideological affinity, intellectually recognizing that it's a healthier way to be, but feeling resistance in yourself that you slowly learn to overcome for the greater good? Or is it a mix?

Daniel: The greater good.

Daniel: Oh, you're gonna answer that with just

Laurel: No, I'm just

Nichole: Three words.

Nichole: Listen,

Laurel: I don't like this any more than the rest of you, but I'm doing it for the greater good. What

Nichole: a sacrifice.

Laurel: You're welcome. Thank you

Daniel: for your service.

Nichole: You're gonna have to repeat. The questions, probably. I thought you were going to have

Daniel: me repeat the made up name.

Nichole: No, Stubert.

Daniel: Stubert. Unforgettable.

Nichole: What are, what are the first couple of questions? Yeah,

Daniel: we should break it into pieces. I think the first question is, Why do we get into poly and why do we stay in it?

Daniel: Personally, and we kind of went over this in episode one, but this is, you know, a chance for a kind of informal do over I got into poly Naturally and very slowly figuring out that it was the most natural way for me to live and that my relationships would not last.

Daniel: if I tried to make them monogamous. In part because fundamentally, I put way too much pressure on a single person if I'm expecting them to provide all the different types of connection that I need. And then I spend a lot of my time, like, analyzing them and trying to figure out if it is THE connection.

Daniel: right relationship. Once I entered into a framework of non monogamy, it really freed me up to stop asking if any given relationship was the right relationship. Start looking at, do I want to love this person and do I want to receive love from them? It wasn't just like a switch got turned on. For a long time when I would start relationships, I would kind of know that it was a possibility, right? And then I Gradually realized that, you know, after, after attempting some relationships that were monogamish or swingery I realized that, like, the pull to love others, As an inclination for myself was too strong for you know, kind of a narrower definition of non monogamy for me.

Daniel: So it was trial and error. Like, I stumbled before I walked. I did not read anything until even You know, this last year, I really did not read any of the classics. Whoa, buddy. I know.

Nichole: And why do you, the second half of the question, Why do you stay in polyamory? Is that how Stubert framed it?

Daniel: Yes. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Why do I stay in it? Like it's, it's like a little bubble that I, that I live in.

Daniel: Why do I still practice polyamory is because I love both of you very much and

Daniel: it feels like just who I am at this point. So like asking, you know, I don't even, I no longer ask myself the question of, am I going to remain polyamorous? If I wasn't kind of forced by society to give it a name, then I probably wouldn't even think about it or have this podcast, you know, but Thank you, society.

Laurel: Laurel. Yeah, so I was, I mean, I, I definitely feel oriented to polyamory. Like that is like an intrinsic part of who I am. I think that like I was like pretty much like serially monogamous from like 14 until I took like a couple month hiatus in college and then decided to propose to my now ex husband.

Laurel: So I was like basically in a relationship that entire time. And it was because I would like, you know, fall in love, have a partner, fall in love with somebody else while I was still with that partner, breakup, be with the new partner. And and you know, like it was on and on until I'm in my thirties and And I wish I had known sooner that polyamory was a thing that I could do.

Laurel: Cause it was very

Laurel: it was very like heartbreaking and just incredibly like difficult to constantly like, have and, and feel open to. Connection and then having to like make this choice of like, oh, well then which connection is more important and and then like following sort of the, you know, the bullet points of what love is according to Disney society.

Laurel: It was like, oh, well, I couldn't have been in love with this person if I'm in love with this person. And so naturally I have to let the old relationship go and, yeah, and that sucked for a long time. And then I discovered what polyamory was via like a, you know, an expose in the Atlantic or something.

Laurel: It was very, you know, it was very like voyeuristic into like, you know, the female male relationship. female triad kind of thing. But it was the first time I like saw the word and was like, Oh, that's me. And then scoured the internet and read the books and all of that kind of stuff. There's like a lot more tumultuous details in there, but eventually, like once I Once I started practicing poly, I went hard.

Laurel: Like, like I knew that I wanted like non hierarchical kitchen table poly, like off the bat. I didn't and I still don't like impose that as like a requirement for partners, but like, like I knew as I was like developing and forming my relationships that those were things that I like. Wanted and if it was going to be like a long term partnership that that those other partners would like be on board with that kind of thing and now I can't like I can't imagine going Like no, nothing can make me be monogamous again.

Laurel: It's just, it's just me. Like there's no, there's no other way around it. And I would feel very sad and claustrophobic. To not be polyamorous anymore.

Nichole: You guys both looked at me at the same time.

Laurel: Do you

Nichole: approve?

Laurel: Was that okay? We're silenced. The Bob Dylan song just came on. It's cause it's your turn, Nicole.

Nichole: , I experienced smatterings of like both of your experience.

Nichole: Right. So. Like I didn't actively start dating until I graduated college. Which is insane when I look back on it. But I was a workaholic in high school and in college.

Laurel: Surprise, surprise.

Nichole: Everyone is surprised when they hear that. And they're just And, So when I was, when I graduated into the recession and didn't have a job, I was like, okay, I guess now is the time.

Nichole: Guess I'll

Laurel: fuck around and find

Nichole: out. And like we talked about in previous episodes, like, I think I did this poorly and didn't have a name for it because I definitely dated multiple men at the same time and they, I told them, I was very like, I was like, I was like, I was like, Hey, I'm dating multiple people, but I didn't identify myself as anything.

Nichole: It was just like, these were the men who were in front of me and those were the ones that I wanted to date.

Daniel: I mean they probably would have figured out that you were dating the other men because they were all standing next to each other at the time.

Nichole: I mean I would keep them like in a line and then I would just, it was kind of like outfits in the morning.

Nichole: I would just kind of choose which one I wanted to be with that day.

Laurel: You and maybe you in the evening.

Nichole: I'm

Daniel: gonna wear you.

Nichole: So and then I got into a couple of you know like long term monogamous relationships And again with Daniel, when we first started dating, we were definitely doing like consensual non-monogamy.

Nichole: I wouldn't say that we transitioned to poly necessarily until U2 started dating and we kind of saw the beauty that is kitchen table poly or like polyamorous or polyamory proper quote unquote. And I dove headfirst about, I don't wanna say like 18 months ago into. All of the reading, all of the books. I read all of the books.

Nichole: I listened to all of the podcasts. I read all of the articles. I still, every morning, instead of checking social media, I read polyamory reddit, because I'm like, oh, what's the tea? But also like, it's way less depressing than the news or social media.

Daniel: So it's what I do. I thought of you when I read this question, in part, because.

Daniel: I felt like your experience, at least the way that you've described it to me, was , more towards the other end of the spectrum as far as whether the motivation first was just personal inclination or theory and ideology. Like when I met you, what you said to me was, you know, I've never done this before.

Daniel: Right. But it makes sense to me. Like I believe in it. Before you even had experienced it in action.

Nichole: So I really feel like I was stubert like nine, 10 years ago in that ideologically I understand polyamory and consensual non monogamy. Like it does call to me because. I do fundamentally agree and have experienced either being attracted to, or being in love with multiple people at the same time. And I also would not want to close myself off.

Nichole: To exploring those dynamics and exploring those relationships. As far as like who it is, it's like, was it always calling to me? I don't know that it necessarily was. I think that I took advantage of the opportunity that was presented to me with dating you. And I also don't know that I necessarily consider it like an identity.

Nichole: I think that it is a type of relationship that I am in and it is, The relationship structure that I choose to, like, take part in. But I never had that lightbulb moment of like, oh, this is me.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. , while you were saying that, I was like trying to think about like, yes, it's both a thing you can practice and a thing that you can just be. I feel like.

Nichole: Yeah. But you can identify as polyamorous and you can also practice polyamory. That's my experience with coming into polyamory is like practical application, not necessarily an identity.

Nichole: And I also just like, Painting this picture of like, yeah, if everyone was polyamorous, the world would be more just, and the world would be more free. Like, I think if it's not polyamory, it's people just practicing honesty.

Nichole: Like, I don't know that it necessarily like would be polyamory that would drive our society forward. I think it would be, but I think it's practicing the tenants of polyamory, which are. You know, transparency, being sure in what it is that you want in a relationship, being honest having difficult conversations.

Nichole: Like, those are the things that I'm drawn to polyamory because it necessitates and requires that kind of introspection and deep connections with other people.

Laurel: Yeah, I feel like, like, when I heard that phrase of like, Yeah, creating that dichotomy between like, oh, like, you, like, something intellectually seems good, but then I'm like fighting these other tenets of it in whatever my feelings body.

Laurel: Like, I I think there's two things about that that jump out at me. Like, one, is it because something feels difficult for you doesn't mean that it's not natural. Like, and and I think that that is also ingrained in like a lot of our like societal perceptions about love and relation where it's like, oh, well if it's real then it's easy and you don't have to work at it and I think that like Nicole, it sounds like you.

Laurel: And like, like I as well am very much of like, Oh no, everything requires work. And like, it's interesting to do the work. And it's like, that actually is like further intimacy building. And, and the other part, like it sounded sort of like coupling the, like. You know, some of it doesn't feel natural and stubert like brought up like oh like because I don't want to have multiple sexual relationships Well, you don't have to you could be polyamorous and not correct Yeah,

Daniel: which is a big part of like like when I was talking with him.

Daniel: I was like, you know You know the first thing that we're gonna say and it's actually the 27th thing that we Yeah, but yeah, so Like um, you have had And have polyamorous relationships that are not sexual, at least not on an everyday basis. How did they evolve for you?

Laurel: Well, I think that, I mean, one, like to your point in saying like, oh, polyamory allowed you to not put so much pressure on one person to be everything? Like I think there's, there's a lot of pressure culturally that like, oh if your relationship is good, you're having sex this many times a week or whatever and like, and if you're not, it's not healthy and something's wrong with your relationship and you need to go to therapy.

Laurel: And so, like, like, I think, one, just starting to practice polyamory, like, that immediately was like, oh, there's so much more room for different, for my relationships to look different kinds of ways and and there's still, like, there's still that voice sometimes that's just like, oh, what's wrong with me?

Laurel: You don't want to have sex with me? But um, Um, but one, like getting out of your own head and being like, no, it has nothing to do with you. And being actually just more concerned about like what is fulfilling and makes your partner happy. And if I'm being like fulfilled elsewhere in those regards, then it really doesn't matter.

Laurel: And like, it's not, I think that some people, like, I think some people need sexual intimacy to feel like emotional intimacy. And that's just not how it is for me. Like I can have either or, or both. So it doesn't like, I don't feel like, I don't feel like I'm missing something from my relationships that don't involve trans.

Laurel: A sexual component. And the only time I get like weirded out by it is like when I start comparing. Whether I'm comparing that relationship to that partner's other relationships or comparing that relationship to my other relationships, like. But if I just like, in isolation, I'm like, am I happy and fulfilled with this person and how we treat each other and what we do together, then like, it really doesn't matter to me.

Daniel: Schubert? Stubert. Pubert? Pubert was the original name for Pugsley on the Addams Family sidebar.

Laurel: Pubert? Yeah. The censors were like, no!

That's dirty sounding.

Daniel: Um, I'm putting myself in Stubert's shoes or Schubert's stews and

Daniel: imagining, okay, you're in like a relationship with someone who may not want you to be Polly, right? Or may, you know, may not want the relationship opened up and I'm imagining, okay, are they okay with non sexual romantic relationships? relationships too. Are you okay with non sexual romantic relationships?

Daniel: And this, this scenario is imagining like, imagining a partner who's saying to another partner I don't want you to even have non sexual deep loving connections with others. And that feels like it gets to the heart of what feels most toxic about traditional monogamy, right?

Daniel: That could even be a, a question that somebody could, it's like somebody who believes that there's such a thing as emotional cheating, who doesn't want their partner to love anyone not wanting your partner to love someone just is, is shocking to me.

Laurel: I just got really sad.

Daniel: What

Laurel: a sad notion.

Daniel: Like it highlights what that, what jealousy really is at its core. Or what wanting to kind of control somebody's love is at its core when you take sex out of the equation.

Laurel: It's dark and sad. Yeah.

Nichole: But at the end of the day,

Nichole: like, you can have non sexual. relationships. Yeah. I think it's also like if sex was a requirement for every single polyamorous relationship that you had or that anybody experienced, then asexual people would not be able to experience participate in polyamory.

Nichole: And we know that they do.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah. Stuber, I feel like you have a lot of hangups around sex and we should talk about that. Messy. I don't know. Yeah. What were the words in there? I was, I just want to unpack this for a minute. I was,

Nichole: I was scared that he was, that he was inferring that you had to have multiple, you had to have sex with multiple people at the same time, like at the same time, like that it was a requirement, like you did when you were dating, I had them all stand in a corner, which one I was going to be with that day.

Daniel: Okay, now I anticipated that this would be the case. So I asked clarifying questions.

Laurel: Oh.

Daniel: First I said, ,Stubert, I knew I was smart to ask you. Can you elaborate what do you think is messy , or shallow? He said, not sure.

Daniel: It's just a gut reaction. Like I just feel overwhelmed about it. Like not trusting that it's going to work out. It feels wrong. I questioned, do I really need to be doing this? Why must I have more than one? I wonder about unforeseen externalities, both morally and pragmatically. Time management, emotional capacity, managing complexity, wondering if I can really fully enjoy each partner or am I spending too much time juggling?

Daniel: And also the basic moral question, is this in my best interest? So that's a different kind of, like, that's a different kind of definition of morality. Right? Like, like if, if morality comes down to like, is this good for me? Like a moral question of like spiritual emotional health.

Laurel: I think there's something puritanical in like, that like, sexual promiscuity, or even romantic promiscuity, could be Morally unwell for you. . Like, I think that is like, just deeply rooted in some shit.

Laurel: I don't know. No judgment, Stuart. I think this is something that young women get to ask themselves a lot more as you grow up and you're like, am I slut? Am I not a slut? Is it bad for me to be a slut? Am I corrupting the essence of my soul to slut around? Like.

Nichole: I'm trying to relate it back to shame and sex because that's what I'm picking up. Right? Like that's, Stubert is feeling shame around the idea that having sex with multiple people is somehow not good for him.

Nichole: We were conditioned as young women to feel shame all the time about everything, especially about sex.

Nichole: I remember the first time I got called a slut and like, I didn't lose my virginity till I was 21.

Daniel: I thought I was the first person to call you a slut.

Nichole: You're the first person to call me a slut in bed. No, I was like in high school and I had like, just like, made out with a guy or whatever. And I was called a slut the next day and I was like, huh.

Nichole: Like, I felt like a sting.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: You know. Especially because I didn't feel slutty. I didn't feel. And I was like, if that's being a slut, that's boring. Like, I got nothing out of that.

Laurel: There's a, like, there's a different kind, kind of shame maybe that like, Like.

Laurel: AMAB people and AFAB people grow up with. And for like, women, it's growing up, yeah, and being told like, like, one, that your only power is within your sex, but also, you're disgusting if you use it. And worthless, and any myriad other things. Thank you. And then I feel like, and maybe it's a more like recent phenomenon Because there's like men, like, young men growing up are expected to be trans.

Laurel: promiscuous and like want to fuck all the time and have a raging boner everywhere they go. And so there's probably shame around not being that kind of person but now and then also like in you know the in our woke social justice era there is the like fear and shame about like being a predator.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: Mm hmm.

Daniel: For some of us AMABs and for the newbies out there, AFAB is Assigned Female at Birth. AMAB is Assigned Male at Birth. AHAB is Assigned Male. The antagonist slash protagonist of Moby Dick.

Daniel: Laurel really wants to spit in my mouth.

Laurel: Can we add that? Like, we'll have the, we'll have Nicole's Oh God on the soundboard. Can we add my talk a

Nichole: loogie

Laurel: onto it?

Daniel: Yeah. Disgusting.

Laurel: Yeah!

Daniel: Um,

Daniel: So for some of us, I feel like it predates the rise of cancel culture. Like for me, here's a little, little therapy time. One of my many stepfathers Uh was arrested for masturbating in front of a high school when I was a kid, right I definitely, like, internalized a lot of shame around my sexuality.

Daniel: I mean, there were a lot of other reasons, you know. I also had another one of my, see, it's all, it's all daddy issues. I had another stepfather who was very homophobic. Like the first time that I heard about AIDS was you know, Oh, that's a, that's a fag disease.

Daniel: Don't worry about it. I am absolutely confident that you are not going to be gay or bisexual was, was the message. So from the AMAB side, like I came into. sexual activity carrying around a ton of baggage around uh, whether or not my sexuality could be damaging to others, whether there could be some kind of, you know, monstrous aspect to it that would suddenly emerge and hurt me or others.

Daniel: And I have no idea if that's the kind of Shame that Stubert feels around the danger around his sexuality, but I just know that there's plenty of reasons to have that be triggered in somebody and have that be your perception is that promiscuous sexuality is dangerous, not just from a sexual health standpoint, but dangerous somehow energetically.

Daniel: I don't know. Emotionally, psychologically, I can, I understand the fear of it, of letting a genie out the bottle, you know?

Nichole: Would you say that because polyamory does require a lot of work, Right. Would you say that there is an opportunity within your work within polyamory to unpack some of that shame?

Daniel: Yes.

Daniel: I don't think that you get over shame or fear of the power and danger of sexuality by avoiding it. And my journey generally to come to a healthier place has just been being a complete fucking perv.

Nichole: It's having to smoke the entire pack of cigarettes. No, not to turn me off to it. That's true, yeah. But, yeah, but you know Yeah, because you smoke the entire pack of cigarettes and then you're a smoker. So maybe yes, because it never really works. But yeah, so my journey through that is actually, I've found a lot of healing in kinky sex, group sex, gay sex

Nichole: And that healing might not be the journey for Stubert, but it is something that I mean, I identify with I think that it wasn't necessarily to like overcome shame as much as it was body issues, right? And I think that not necessarily, that doesn't necessarily require you to have sex with multiple people, but I will say it is, it is a, it is a, um, there is something to having sex, be therapeutic.

Nichole: and experiencing sex with different people and how they experience sex and having this other language that you speak with them

Nichole: that can lend itself to some healing for me. That's just for me.

Laurel: No, I think that's very true. And I feel like there's, there is that element cause you hear a lot, you know, when polyamory comes up and you hear a lot of people go like, Oh, I can never do that kind of thing. And a lot of people will be, like, Okay, I never have to go beyond this point, I'm monogamous, I don't have to explore that or ask about it.

Laurel: I can just like put that in a box and shove it away. And I think a lot of people do that and a lot of people will have like, you know, fine, happy, healthy lives doing that, but I Like, like, I wouldn't underestimate the power of opening that box. And like asking those hard questions and trying to figure it out.

Laurel: And it probably will be like a little bit of a shit show and be like kind of uncomfortable and and very like difficult at times. But can also be like infinitely rewarding. And if you're thinking about that, you know, I idyllic society or life, like, no, like me being polyamory doesn't make the world a better place for anybody else.

Laurel: Makes the world a better place for me that you're

Laurel: but like, well, it makes it for me. Like it makes my world more idyllic and like Stubert, maybe your world could be a little more idyllic too. Because every once in a while, I'm just like, Holy shit, my life's fucking awesome. Like, it still sucks, and there's hard things, but I'm like, What?

Laurel: Like, all these people love me, and I love them, and I like, Yeah, it's cool, man.

Daniel: But the aura of your polyamory too, like, It does have a positive effect, like, around you too. Like, maybe it's not changing the world just because you're a slut. But I'm doing my best.

Daniel: But I think we've talked about this. Your openness, like, your can't fucking keep me in the closet attitude has been an inspiration socially for me and I think to speak, at the risk of speaking for Nicole, like that we have both learned something from the way that you engage and present as a poly person in the world.

Nichole: I will also say that to Stubert's point of like, not engaging in sex with multiple partners and maybe platonic relationships are a thing that he wants to explore, what have you. I will also say that if kitchen table polyamory. Is of interest. Our relationship, you and I, Laurel is like, it is, it's unlike any other relationship that I have in that there is a certain closeness that we have that isn't replicated anywhere else in my life.

Nichole: And there's this, there's a warmth and a generosity that you bring that like really inspires me to be more warm and generous with my partners. And other people in my life, but there is, there's just like, I can't, I, I, I try to describe it to people, but there is, there is something akin to like, there is a love there and I can't really name it and I can't describe it, but like, I deeply love you.

Nichole: It's just not necessarily like, it's not romantic love, but it's, but I see what you're able to do. Like the. The person that you make Daniel, and I see how happy you make him, and I see you inspiring him to be a better person, you inspire me to be a better person, like it's just, that is also a non sexual, non romantic way of experiencing polyamory, is getting these Very unique and special relationships with people.

Nichole: Excuse me while I go

Laurel: cry in the

Nichole: corner. Now,

Daniel: when I say sweet things, she, she makes a gagging motion. When

Laurel (2): you say

Daniel: sweet things, it's waterworks. I

Laurel: can't deflect Nicole's sweetness.

Laurel: Well, I think there is like, yeah, I think that is one of the coolest things about polyamory to me. Is that like. I think it is super easy to look at it and just be like, Oh yeah, you just get to multiply, like, I have a girlfriend and I can multiply that by five. And that's like not at all what it is. In part, cause like, even if you just had five other girlfriends, like those are all going to be very different, very like unique relationships.

Laurel: Why are you laughing, Daniel?

Daniel: I was just thinking that there's a whole generation of Like people who think that polyamory is going to be like that Robert Palmer video where all the backup dancers look exactly the same.

Laurel: That's that'll be our next is this poly? But but yeah, but there is something like I don't know, and that's part of why Kitchen Table is important to me, because there is something like phenomenally, phenomenally unique in sharing a love with somebody. It's like being part of the coolest fandom. Like, the most intimate, interesting fandom you could think of.

Nichole: Did we answer the question?

Daniel: No, but we never answer the question.

Laurel: Isn't that the point?

Nichole: Are we, should we move on to the next? Oh yeah. To the next segment? Oh, and what shall that segment be? Unicorn Hunter Hunters?

Song: Do you wanna be there?

Nichole: Alright, so I have a profile. Yes. So, this is a couple that, Looking at the distance away, they're definitely not in our city. This is, this is not. Oh, bummer. It's, I know. Well, you don't know yet. Alright, ready? Ready.

Laurel (2): Okay.

Nichole: Cute. In love. Soft. Swap. Couple. Dot. Dot. Dot. For now.

Laurel (2): Mmhmm.

Nichole: We're new to playing as a couple and taking small steps. She's smart, sexy, and insatiable. He's friendly, funny, and as equally insatiable. We're a team and only play together. She doesn't enjoy the correspondence on here, but looks in once in a while.

Nichole: We're looking for other cute soft swap couples for light play touching oral. Please be clean everywhere. We get very clean before playing and expect the same. We're attracted to physically attractive slash active, outgoing, friendly couples. There needs to be a positive connection before our clothes fall off.

Nichole: We love Parallel Play, watching, being watched, and are excited to experience more together and grow in the lifestyle. An exceptionally good looking, extremely fit, well hung male. 5'10 and up. That understands she's the star of the show for MFM. If you aren't all five of these things, sorry. If you aren't, Don't message us repeatedly, send friend requests, or IM us saying you know you don't fit the bill.

Nichole: She makes the rules, and that's what she wants. You may believe you are the exception, but dot, dot, dot, no.

Daniel: The friend request thing threw me because this is not on a platform, I think, that has friend requests. Was this originally their Friendster profile? Yeah, just copy and pasted it over.

Nichole: Yet again, we're in a place where they have incredibly specific requirements for the male person that they are looking for, for MFM, which is male, female, male,

Daniel: hey, at least. There's a lot that's really fucked up about this. But at least they're focusing on a male unicorn, which I know that is it a pegasus?

Daniel: Is there another word for it? I don't know, but at least it's I'll peg that, sis. Hey. Hey.

Daniel: Um, I mean, they are focused on the male,

Nichole: a male

Daniel: unicorn, which is unusual.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: So gotta give them credit for that right before they turn around. And completely objectify them in all the ways that you might objectify a woman. So

Laurel: like, what's the deal? Like, I get like swinger culture is a little different.

Laurel: Obviously they're like referring to like the lifestyle and soft swap. Like, is that just like a generally much more acceptable thing? And so. It's like swinger culture to just like completely objectify another human being, like. And be very prescriptive. Yeah, and be super prescriptive about it. Yeah.

Daniel: There is a lot more prescriptiveness and we have at least two, like you know, sample size of two right now that they're, that they're really, they're really happy to like get really specific about the dicks.

Laurel: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Like

Daniel: you would never see. Like, in a Unicorn Hunter profile that is talking about the woman that they want. And I'm like, you know, we just really need labia that are at least, like, two inches long on each side.

Laurel: Oh my god. I want some flappy lips.

Daniel: Clits, clits any smaller than a now and later.

Daniel: Need not apply.

Laurel: Yeah, I'm, I'm sorry dudes.

Nichole: Yeah, I mean, that's part of why I chose this one is because yet again, we're experiencing like very strict rules for who the man has to be. And like this idea that like, don't even contact us if you're not any of these. And this is on a platform where like, you can't contact somebody unless you match with them.

Nichole: So yeah, it's putting a lot of like communications rules. in a place that's like, they actually control the, the flow of communication. So.

Daniel: And can we talk about the clean part?

Nichole: Yeah, the clean thing. Please be clean, parens, everywhere. We get very clean before playing and expect the same.

Laurel: Initially I thought that they were just like, you know, using it as a, like, you know, people say clean for like STI free.

Laurel: And that's what I thought, that they were just being STI shamey. But no, they actually mean like

Nichole: They're talking about taking a silkwood shower. Like, they're like, you have to douse yourself in, you know hand sanitizer before.

It burns!

Nichole: That way we know you're clean. Oh, wow. Huh.

Daniel: Yeah, I mean, I'm OCD, and so when I hear something like that, I feel like they're going to subject me to their OCD, and we don't play in each other's OCD as, as a general

Laurel: rule.

Laurel: I do want to clarify, Daniel actually has OCD. He's not just tidy, because he's not tidy.

Laurel: Bitch ain't tidy. Bitch has compulsive thoughts.

Nichole: Clinically diagnosed. Um, , I also thought that they were talking about STDs at first, but it sounds like, I mean, I don't know if they got burned.

Nichole: Like, I don't know. Yeah. Like

what happened? What, what dirty genitals came your way? And. What? I just, yeah, I'm having a hard time, like, wrapping my head around this.

Daniel: I feel like it exists in both realms, that it is about STIs and about, like, clean, and about physical hygiene. And I think that they somehow believe that, like, the two are connected.

Daniel: Oh, no. Like, if you just, if you just, if you just scrub enough, It'll come off.

Nichole: Yeah, if you just drink enough orange juice and stay in the sun enough, you'll not get COVID.

Laurel: I don't know why, but I just, I don't know what these people look like at all, but it's just picturing them outside, like sun tanning their genitals with those little, like foil

frames to like

Nichole: kill the bacteria.

Nichole: I mean, do you want to take a guess at what their photos are? Headless. Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. Headless. They are bodies and, and blurred. Oh, like any, any closeness toward the faces or like any inclusion of any heads, they are blurred out.

Daniel: Okay. Now we assess these unicorn hunter profiles with three categories, arbitrary rules, bombasticity

Nichole: of lifestyle, self aggrandizement,

Daniel: arbitrary rules, self aggrandizement, and would we bang them?

Nichole: Yeah.

Nichole: Okay, so on a scale of, what did we decide? One to ten? Yeah. With arbitrary rules? Where do we rate these people?

Laurel: They have the cleanliness thing. Got to be well hung. Got to be extremely good looking. Extremely good looking, extremely fit, well hung and 5'10 and above. I feel like the, the clean thing I'm going to give them like an 8.

Daniel: . I think that's a weird weird rule

Laurel: Yeah, that one has a story behind it.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: Yes Yeah, I am. Yeah. I'm in like seven eight territory like because all of the like, I mean the other ones are obnoxious like But they're basically like, you have to be good looking, like, you have to be fit and good looking.

Laurel: You just have to be like an archetype of,

Daniel: yeah,

Laurel: man.

Nichole: I mean, I, I'm right down the, I'm seven and a half, like the cleanliness thing really freaks me out because then I'm also like, what if I'm not clean enough? Like even if I do take a silkwood shower, is that clean enough? Like, yeah. What if my pussy sweats on the way over?

Nichole: Like. They're going to turn, turn me away. Bless your

Daniel: labia is not hung enough.

Nichole: . All right. As far as like self aggrandizing, they, they didn't do so much of that for this one.

Daniel: No, there's insinuations of how awesome they are. Cause they, you know, you've got to be super fit.

Nichole: She's smart, sexy, and insatiable. He's friendly, funny, and equally insatiable.

Friendly. That's a funny one. I feel like, like, whoa, you couldn't, you couldn't think of it. Like, you got nothing else going on for you.

I'm friendly. Friendly.

Nichole: I mean, not according to your fucking profile, you're not. You're very rude.

Daniel: So what do you think? I think uh, just a four. Yeah, four. Yeah, four.

Nichole: Yeah. Alright, and then would we unicorn?

Daniel: Can we see the picture?

Nichole: That's all I got.

Daniel: Oh, they're mostly obscured. Yep.

Daniel: . I mean, no. Because you don't hit the height requirement.

Daniel: I mean, we, we do have like um, if I stand on your shoulders. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah. We'll stack on top of each other.

Daniel: I

Nichole: mean, you're the only person who can answer this because they don't want Laurel and I.

Daniel: Well, let's say that I was as hung and as tall and as fit and as scrubbed to the pink as they demand.

Daniel: Still a no. Yeah, nothing about it is even remotely attractive to me.

Laurel: They just like they also just seem like I don't know. There's like there's nothing there. He's friendly though You

never meet friendly men Hi My name's gus, are you welcome?

Yes, but it's just my labia.

Laurel (2): No! Is

that it? Is that where we end? And cancel.

Laurel: That was our very last episode of Polyamateur

Daniel: Hour.

Song: This has been Polyamateur Hour, a production of Risa Records. If you have a question for Ask the Amateurs, or a recommendation for Is This Poly, please email us at polyamateurhour at gmail dot com. If you enjoyed the show, and you know you did, you perv, please subscribe to us on your podcatcher of choice, leave us a five star review, and most importantly, tell at least one person in your life to check us out.

Song: But we hope you tell three. Remember, the advice given by the amateurs should not be followed. Unless you are prepared to be ecstatically happy, successful, and strange. Until next time!