Daniel: Wow, that was a really fast count in that time. Sometimes I just have the metronome set to max.

Laurel: Wow.

Nichole: So you're saying that we have to talk double time?

Daniel: How about if both of you talk double time and I go really fast?

Nichole: Yeah, that'll be,

Laurel: that'll be great for the listener. Then we play it backwards. And it's like a David Lynch movie.

Nichole: It's our Halloween episode. Spooky Crisp.

PAH Theme: Talkin bout love and sex and power, All our polyamateur hour.

Nichole: Did Cookie Crisp ever come out with a Halloween edition called Spooky Crisp? If they didn't, that was a missed opportunity. Do you know what we're talking about, Daniel?

Daniel: There were There were so many amazing limited edition cereals when I was a kid, and I don't know if that's a thing anymore. Like, they would just, when a movie would come out, it would be like, suddenly C 3PO Os were like there for a week.

Laurel: I feel like that's still a thing.

Daniel: It's still a thing.

Nichole: I went grocery shopping this morning at the Winco, and I saw Frankenberry, Count Chocula. And what, whatever the third one is, I can't remember.

Daniel: I feel like it was the equivalent of like watching for like new streaming shows coming out when you're a kid is like you go to the grocery store and you've got a new cereal. Like I was looking forward to the drops.

Nichole: But did your, did your family ever eat the sugary cereal?

Nichole: Like were you allowed to buy it?

Laurel: Or did you observe longingly from the outside?

Daniel: Oh yeah, my parents were not the like, responsible, healthy kinds of hippies. Although arbitrarily, arbitrarily they would like, they would like, get me carob. Just because it was like, culturally, you know, in the zeitgeist. They're like, oh we're going to the nature store, get a lot of carob.

Daniel: But then they would also, like, let me eat frozen pizzas for breakfast.

Laurel: Wow. I love this for you. I was only allowed junk cereal when we went back east to see family.

Nichole: When we were on vacation. Yeah. That's the only time that, and we got the mini ones that would come in, like, packs of six. Oh, yeah. And my brother and I would have to choose every day which one we wanted.

Laurel: I'm gonna say, your serial choice is very Polly of you. Like, , like, having a variety and choosing one every day.

Laurel: Oh, I hope that there is one episode where you just hear Darla Yiping in the background.

Daniel: We've got dogs.

Hey! Viewers,

Daniel: Accept our dogs. If you can't deal with dogs in the background, this is the wrong podcast for you.

Laurel: Are they reacting to us?

Daniel: They're trying to participate.

Laurel: Aww, they

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: He just wants to be heard. Alright, hold on. But

Daniel: they have, but they have terrible, They have terrible conversation protocol.

Laurel: Yeah. They're always talking over.

Daniel: All right. So now for those of you at home, I'm going to narrate those footsteps.

Daniel: Are Nicole going upstairs to silence the dogs?

Laurel: Wow. That sounds

Daniel: problematic.

Laurel: Yeah. Just quiet the hounds.

Daniel: The dogs will be quiet before she gets upstairs. And whatever actions she will take, will probably do no good because we have no control over whether the dogs are barking or not.

Daniel: Alright, here she comes. On her way back. Can we do Foley? Do coconuts.

Laurel: It started immediately. The coconut. Have you ever tried that?

Nichole: The coconuts for the I've never held two coconut shells together. I don't think I have either. Okay. What? I don't know. Why would you ask? I don't know. You made it sound like you'd done it. Like, have you guys ever tried that? It's so fun. Make everybody sound like horsies.

Nichole: It's

Daniel: so great. . It's like, seems like something I would have done. Cause I had when I was like in 8th grade. I had a Monty Python fan club.

Laurel: Of course you did this. I knew you were going to

Daniel: reference Monty Python.

Laurel: Yeah, I mean, inevitably if we're speaking in coconut. Yeah.

Daniel: Welcome to Polly Amateur Hour.

Laurel: Do we need a tagline? Like you put one that was like the variety show for people who like variety. I know, I know, I like

Daniel: it too. It makes us sound like swingers. A little. Or

Laurel: like, I mean. Maybe we are a little. Yeah, we are a little. Where's the line? I'm a swinger that's allowed to fall in love.

Daniel: I feel like we are doing it at like two times speed today.

Laurel: It's that fucking kava I had last night, man. I swear. I am jacked.

Daniel: I have been thinking about kava because I'm like starting a new old SSRI and I'm like kind of amped I was like doing all this research about kava. And then dude shows up at the party

Laurel: with

Daniel: the kava. But there's a whole ceremony that you have to do where you have to like clap and like throw it over your shoulders.

Daniel: Daniel

Nichole: spits on ceremony. He's just mad that he had to do something.

Daniel: Just give me the drugs, the drugs, man. I don't want to, I don't want to smoke out with you, drug dealer. I don't want to, I'm not going to match bowls.

Nichole: No, I, Had that kava last night. Didn't do any of the ceremony because you didn't include that when you Handed me the little cup.

Nichole: Which is rude and we're probably all cursed now. Probably. That's why you couldn't fall asleep last night. Yeah.

Daniel: Couldn't fall asleep until you get up and do the ceremony. Oh, fuck. Now, you know how I feel with my OCD.

Nichole: Aw. Aw. But That's as far as our scenario extends. Aw, moving

Laurel: on.

Nichole: I mean I had this You last night and immediately because I'm an alcoholic, I wanted more.

Nichole: I was like, Oh, that made me feel a little bit good. Can I have more? I want more, more,

Laurel: more now. I mean, that's how I felt. So maybe I'm an alcoholic too.

Daniel: I mean, it's why we're all Polly.

Laurel: Yeah. Oh, good. Maybe this is

Daniel: a good segue.

Laurel: More.

Daniel: More. Today are. Is This Polly is finally matching up with our our first podcast, Love Star Trek.

Is this Poly?: Is this Polly or not?

Daniel: So we all sat down together like a real family today and watch TV and watch TV and talked about it.

Daniel: It's for a podcast.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah. So we watched the episode of this, of Star Trek Enterprise season

Laurel: two, episode 14. For those who want to follow along. I'm pretty sure that was it.

Daniel: Yeah, that is correct. Good note taking. Uh, Called Stigma,

Daniel: it's the only Star Trek episode that deals with polyamory in an explicit way.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: And. The stigma of the title is not about polyamory! I was so stoked.

Nichole: All right. So this episode. There's a whole storyline that we likely will not get into. Yeah. We just want to focus on the Polly part.

Daniel: I don't know. I think it was interesting.

Laurel: It is , but you can listen to The Greatest Gen for that.

Daniel: Yeah, they'll be covering it soon enough.

Daniel: Maybe we can, we can get an ad from them by mentioning them. We get free Greatest Gen, cases of Greatest Gen sent to us.

Laurel: Oh, I would love that! Ha ha

Daniel: ha! But I think it's interesting, the, the episode that deals with poly, also the titular stigma is like a really, really heavy handed AIDS metaphor. Yeah.

Daniel: That is just running completely concurrent to this very light hearted poly plot. And the two do not intersect at all

Laurel: that. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Nichole: So, Dr. Flox.

Daniel: Is the doctor aboard the Starship Enterprise?

Nichole: Yeah. And in his culture, the denubulians. Denobulans. Denobulians.

Ankylosaur

Nichole: In his culture, the denobulians, everyone is, I guess allowed is the only, like, quote unquote allowed to have what we think is up to three spouses.

Nichole: Yeah. So. At least females are allowed to have three husbands. Males are allowed to have three wives. We don't, we don't know if Dr. Phlox has a husband somewhere out there.

Daniel: I would like to think they're encouraged.

Daniel: So this character is like, also really unique , cause he's like, this really, Excited, curious alien who is fascinated with everything human and all the other cultures in the universe

Daniel: and he's got a whole menagerie of like little animals for his medicines.

Trek Clip: Every moment's been an adventure for me. Humans are so unpredictable. Have you seen the quantities of food Crewman Neymar consumes? Have you smelled Ensign Socorro after she exercises? She gives off a fragrance not unlike the adrenal gland of a Norse ican.

Trek Clip: And, uh, Crewman Bennett and Hanum over there, do you see them? If I'm not mistaken, they are preparing to mate. Do you think they might let me watch?

Nichole: So in this episode, Dr. Phlox's wife is coming to visit.

Daniel: And what is her name? Fiesel. Fiesel. Fiesel Phlox.

Laurel: Fiesel Phlox. What a vixen. Oh, she's everything.

Nichole: She's everything to me. She is. If I could do that loaf, like loaf and face attachments or whatever for the convention, I would, and I would flirt with, I would come on to everybody.

Nichole: I love that. That would be amazing. So she's visiting Enterprise. Like she steps off the elevator, instantly she sees one of the officers, I can't remember his name. Tripp Tucker.

Nichole: Tripp Tucker, yeah.

Daniel: Florida man in space.

Nichole: Huh, yeah. But she just like homes in on him. And is like, you're sexy, I'm sexy, what do we do about it? So the entire episode is little vignettes of her just like strongly coming on to him.

Laurel: Yeah, with like And him

Nichole: resisting.

Laurel: Sexual microscope component innuendo.

Trek Clip: Insert the thick end into this opening. You can pull it out now. The stream should be initiated.

Daniel: So spoiler alert. One of the things that very early on in this episode I saw that made me go, yes, this is Polly, was when she first arrives. They're like, Oh, you guys probably need some time alone together.

Daniel: And they're like, that's all right. We haven't seen each other in three years. We're very, very patient people. And it was like, wow, not only one, they're both really, really self dependent. Like they're, they're, they're individuals interacting with other individuals, even when they're married, they spend a long time apart.

Daniel: It made me think specifically of. Your long distance relationships, Laurel?

Laurel: Yeah, I immediately like, oh, this is like my partner that lives overseas. Like, we come visit each other, and we'll like, like, we'll still hang out with friends. Or not necessarily just like go canoodle in a corner immediately.

Daniel: Also I feel like poly people are, you know, kind of forced to come to terms with their own jealousy and their own needs in ways that maybe monogamous and specifically monogamous codependent people.

Daniel: So they just struck me as a really, like, the definition of a non codependent couple.

Nichole: An independent couple.

Daniel: Yes.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: And I was inspired and felt very pro denobulin at that moment.

Nichole: Daniel's ready

Daniel: to convert.

Nichole: The other scene that really struck me as Polly was them gossiping about wives and husbands, like their wives or their husbands and other people, like in their polycule basically.

Nichole: It was just, it was them gossiping about their metamors. It was, Adorable. I loved it.

Trek Clip: Has Vesna forgiven Groznik yet? Absolutely not. Groznik has only apologized twice. I doubt he'll be forgiven for another two years. Well, at least he has his other wives. Not wives. Wife. Kessel moved to Tears of Prime to be with her third husband. Which one was her third husband? Oh, was that Klaben? Boga. Klaben was Farlisa's husband. Her first, I think.

Trek Clip: Ferliza. Ferliza. Oh, my, my. I, uh, thought about asking Ferliza to be my second wife. Turned out she already had three husbands.

Laurel: And like, yeah, and like Trip is just like kind of there in the background. And then there's just like this flurry of exchange of names and like, Oh, are they still with so and so?

Daniel: And that's the only moment where we thought maybe there's a cap to the number.

Laurel: Because, oh yeah, because he mentioned that and then he's like, oh, but then I realized she already has three husbands and I didn't know if that was like, oh, that's capacity.

Nichole: Or he was respecting her space and being like, She probably doesn't have, she doesn't have capacity. Much like me, I truly don't know that I could balance more than three.

Daniel: Maybe as a Polly, like society, they're just really, really good with time management and boundaries around their personal space and time.

Nichole: In the same way that they're very good about being patient. Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: This whole, you know, we're focusing on all the really cute, sweet things, but this whole poly exchange is Kind of supposed to be seen or presented through the eyes of the audience in the form of Trip Tucker. So we're supposed to kind of see it through his eyes, right? His

Laurel: very uncomfortable eyes.

Daniel: Yeah, he's like, why is this married woman coming on to me? And what, what am I going to do? I have to tell her husband.

Daniel: So there's this whole perspective, this completely

Daniel: completely in the dark perspective of the monogamous folk who are looking in on this situation. Yeah.

Nichole: Well, that's. The thing that gave, I understand it as like a storytelling structure and like needing a frame to tell this polyamorous story, but I was kind of irked because I was like, well, if any of them had asked a single question of Dr.

Nichole: Flox, they would know that that's just what it is. Right. This is what they do. They, they can have polyamorous relationships and extramarital relationships. And,

Daniel: and that's the other part that I felt was really. Unique about the Denobulans and unique about Phlox is this curiosity, right? The humans aren't like that.

Daniel: The humans are not curious about the poly relationship, but Phlox is curious about the monogamous folks.

Laurel: Yeah,

Daniel: that is very true. Yeah.

Nichole: Well, of all the Star Trek, everything, I'm very glad that Dr. Phlox is our representative.

Laurel: Yeah. He's a good one. It just

Nichole: really warms my heart. Not just the. character of Dr.

Nichole: Phlox, but also just John Billingsley. Like, I'm just, I just feel It's warm.

Laurel: It's warm and fuzzy, for

Daniel: sure. So, a little bit of background. John Billingsley and Dr. Phlox. Like, Dr. Phlox has always been my favorite Star Trek doctor. Like, I'm gonna admit, I have a ranking for each type of character in the Star Trek ranking of the captains ranking of the doctors.

Daniel: Right. It's the only part of my life where I'm hierarchical

Daniel: And so F Flox is my primary, is my primary Star Trek doctor. Yeah. And what uh, I've also been a fan of him because he is a labor organizer. Like he's really awesome activist and in real life, not flocks. And when I was having a really hard time, when I got COVID like about eight months ago when I was having a stir up of my OCD, like Laurel got me a cameo from John Billingsley and he did like a five to like seven minute.

Laurel: Yeah. He talked for a while.

Daniel: really deep, heartfelt talk about like mental health

John Billingsley: daniel! John Alvin Billingsley here, a. k. a. Dr. Phil No Dirty Forceps Phlox, reaching out at Laurel's request to say smooch, hi, and she said that you were having a bit of a hard time with, uh, some, uh, OCD stuff, which I totally get that concept of a, of a circular and obsessive thought that you cannot dislodge from your head. Anyway, she suggested that you could use maybe a little bit of, um, empathy and encouragement.

John Billingsley: And I don't know if this is going to fit the bill or not, but here it goes.

Nichole: When we watched it, I mean, we both cried and I was just so grateful to you, Laurel, for just having the thought to do that.

Nichole: It was one of the turning points in, you know, recovery from COVID. And, and then we got to thank him in person. Yeah. You know. And his wife was there. His wife was really sweet. His wife was really sweet. We got to see him. physically run around in a panel because it was an activist.

Nichole: It was attractivism. So it was activism within Star Trek. And so he was just running around the audience asking people, you know, what their causes were and what their passions were. And he was just so excited. I think a lot of, I love that you. You know, pointed out his curiosity in the character. I think a lot of that comes from John Billingsley.

Laurel: This episode is really just a love letter to John Billingsley. John, if you're listening.

Daniel: Please come on our podcast

Laurel: as a

Daniel: guest talking about

Laurel: anything. We don't care.

Laurel: So, oh yeah, back to the episode. So there is a point where. Eventually, Trip does decide to confront Phlox and let him know that his wife has been hitting on him. And he's all like, you know, comes into medbay and does the awkward, like, I want to talk to you alone kind of thing, and then brings up what a lovely person Fiesel is.

Laurel: And Phlox is like, yeah, she's remarkable. What do you want?

Laurel: And then he, like, Tripp explains that she's been coming on to him and I forget, I forget Phlox's response entirely, but it's really, like, sweet.

Trek Clip: Has she offered to give you a rose petal bath? No, no, no, nothing like that. Oh, any man would be a fool to ignore the romantic overtures of a healthy, denobulant woman. Don't you find her attractive? Uh, sure. I mean, no, she's your wife.

Trek Clip: What does that have to do with it? She's your wife? Oh, nonsense. Nonsense. You're too concerned with human morality. I thought you wanted to learn about new cultures. Isn't that why you joined Starfleet? Why, of course it is. But I was brought up believing you don't play around with another man's wife. I don't think I'm ever going to change my mind about that.

Trek Clip: As you wish. Your laws.

Daniel: He's happy for Tripp.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: He's happy for his wife. Yeah.

Laurel: Tripp is an idiot. Tripp is a lovable idiot in this circumstance.

Laurel: Tripp is like, I don't think I can ever let go of that.

Laurel: And Phlox is like, okay, like. Says, you're lost. Yeah, you're lost. He's like, that's cool, but you're lost.

Daniel: Boundaries. I mean, I just love. Flox's respect for that too. Yeah. Yeah. And then the button on this plot of the episode. Again, we are not talking about the extremely dark and heavy handed AIDS plot among Vulcans and their, you know, Telepathically transmitted diseases.

Daniel: Yeah. Look it up.

Laurel: Educate yourselves.

Daniel: Speak out.

Daniel: So the button on the happy plot of the episode is flocks and trip. And Fiesel hanging out all together with like Trip Between Them looking really uncomfortable while they're talking about the microscope that they've been installing . And then he leaves and then Fiesel and Flox look at each other and they go, humans.

Laurel: I love that because it makes the whole, it makes the whole come on thing. a little less cringy in that there's sort of this like awareness that they are, that they are expanding or pushing on human presumptions about morality in like an intentional way. It's sort of the, that same kind of glee in, in pride when you're out and very, like, openly queer and there's the person holding the, like, God hates fag signs and you run over with your girlfriend and kiss and people take photos in front of it, like, it's that sort of, like, small joy and just, like, Shocking such like closed minded people because it's just so easy to sort of like push those buttons a little bit Maybe not the most mature thing, but

Daniel: they're amused by humans.

Daniel: Yeah, they're totally amused

Laurel: by it.

Daniel: Like this is again like the kind of unmutual curiosity like they are curious and Like interested in humans and learning more and humans are humans fucking suck

Nichole: It might not be the most mature thing to do, but it's definitely the most fun.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: It's

Nichole: gratifying,

Laurel: but like maybe yeah, not appealing to our higher, our higher selves.

Nichole: Oh, we have to answer the question. Yeah. Is this Polly?

Daniel: Well, we already

Laurel: know Daniel's answer. So Daniel, is this Polly?

Daniel: Yes, it is Polly. Polly to the point where I couldn't help wondering if the writers of the episode were Polly or had some extensive experience in non monogamy based on things that felt almost like in jokes for polyamorous people. The gossip about the metamors, the time management and patience, the amusement with the foibles of the monogamous people in your life all of it just felt to me like an insider's perspective.

Nichole: Laurel?

Laurel: Yeah, I have to agree. Definitely, the, the metamore polycule gossip thing, like, I felt very seen in that moment.

Laurel: Right? Me too. And I think that's something that would have totally just, like, flown over my head if I were still practicing monogamy. But yeah, that was just, like, a very, like, sweet, honest moment, and also was like, hmm, yeah, so did someone know? Did someone already, like, dig into this or they just have a good imagination about what it might be like?

Laurel: Yeah hell yeah. Good job, Trek.

Nichole: I mean, it would be so weird if I said no. Ha ha ha ha ha! Of course it is. It is. Unequivocally.

Daniel: Yes! Yes! Yes! It is Polly.

Laurel: Next up, on Polly Amateur Hour.

Daniel: What is next up, Laurel?

Laurel: Ask the amateurs!

Ask the Amateurs: If you got questions, don't demur, it's time to ask the amateurs.

Daniel: Who are the amateurs? These guys right here.

Laurel: Who's got two thumbs and you can't see right now?

Daniel: Who's got two thumbs and no expertise in clinical psychology?

Laurel: Who's got two thumbs and barely a bachelor's degree?

Laurel: Who's

Daniel: got two thumbs and strangely strong opinions about other people's lives?

Daniel: So, do we want to do my mom's question this week? Is that what we're going to do? You mean Stubert's question? Oh, Stubert's question. I think it's cute to let people know that it was my mom.

Daniel: It's, it's pertinent because I think a lot of people have a lot of conversations with their parents who oftentimes have a lot of questions. And so that's why I kind of reached out all this stuff because my mother, you know, loves it when I text her and ask her questions.

Laurel: I think moms like that in general.

Daniel: Moms like it when you talk to them and pay attention to them and don't let them age alone.

Laurel: Turns out, hot tip from the poly community, don't let your parents age and die alone.

Daniel: All right. For context, my mother is a big ole hippie. Well, she's a little hippie.

Laurel: She's

Daniel: a small, small

Laurel: hippie. She's small.

Daniel: Un petit

Laurel: hippie. Un

Daniel: petit hippie. She's a, she's a former psychotherapist and one of those people who like you know, like she, she shakes hands with two hands.

Laurel: She's very warm. She's very, she's

Daniel: very warm, very connective and very thoughtful. This is where Daniel gets it from. She's I want to take that as ironic because I'm uncomfortable with praise.

Daniel: Alright, here's the question. I have admiration of the deepening love the polyamorous choice has given all of you. My question is, how do you deal with feelings of abandonment and betrayal? I would imagine you feel these feelings. It seems vulnerable to honestly expose yourself to each other. Do you sometimes feel shame at having these feelings?

Daniel: And how do you talk to each other about this? Heavy, mom!

Laurel: Yeah, what I like about that question though, because we do have some other ones that are like a sort of generally about jealousy but and obviously like your mom has a psychotherapeutic background so that like informs some of this but like she's not just like Blanketing the whole question of like, oh, how do you deal with being jealous?

Laurel: But it's like Usually, abandonment and betrayal and fear are like the underlying elements of jealousy. So she already kind of like, cuts away some of the fat in that question.

Daniel: Yeah, we were talking about this last night, and I was like, yeah, that's the first thing that we would go to is like, what are the feelings behind it?

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: What is driving you to feel jealous? Because I feel like jealousy is defined by like, when you have all those feelings. And you associate them with the actions of another person. Yeah,

Laurel: you like externalize them and then throw them at your opponent. Blammo!

Nichole: I do want to reiterate that just because you practice polyamory does not prevent you from feeling these feelings.

Nichole: I think that there is a way to deal with it. An idea that like, you have to be a person who doesn't experience jealousy in order to be successful in poly. And I, that is not the case.

Nichole: I think that when I do feel these feelings, I have a lot of, I'm, I am a creature of routine and I have these things, these rituals that I do for myself. And so when I'm feeling in the space of, all right, this is, I'm identifying this feeling as, as jealousy. I do have to take a moment to step back and go like, what is motivating this?

Nichole: It is either I'm telling myself a story and I'm filling in the holes because I don't know what's actually happening. It's not happening in front of me. And my brain always wants to go to the darkest place and the worst place and assume the worst. So I have to stop the storytelling to myself to name it for what it is.

Nichole: Like typically it is fear. It's a fear of lack. It's a fear of not being good enough. It is maybe a fear of abandonment. But I. I take these moments, I identify the feelings, and then I do what makes me feel good.

Nichole: So a lot of that is time by myself, and I really, really love making myself a meal. It could be super elaborate, could be super simple, but I love cooking, and then I love watching a movie while eating what I cooked. And putting my phone in the other room so that I'm just completely absorbed by the movie that I'm watching.

Nichole: And it's really restorative for me. It really just gets me to a place of like, this is something that I can do for myself.

Nichole: It's a gift that I'm giving myself. And then. As I'm like giving this gift to myself, then I'm able to come out the other side and show up in a better way

Daniel: yeah. I feel inspired. Like, you're inspiring me like flocks. Like, I just want to go and like, go do my own thing right now. See you guys! Go do some personal work. So I was thinking about this. when I was on the rowing machine, listening to my, listening to my book more than two by so and so and so and so and your names are important.

Daniel: You're, you're real, you're real people. Frances

Laurel: Vo and I forget the other one.

Daniel: And I actually had just listened to the chapter on jealousy last time. And now I was listening to the episode on boundaries. But I thought it made a ton of sense that they flowed basically from jealousy to boundaries.

Daniel: Because what they first started to talk about is controlling the things that you can control. Looking at these things as boundaries rather than rules. Instead of trying to control the actions of the other person, look to like, what are your personal boundaries for yourself emotionally, physically, sexually.

Daniel: And it got me thinking about how

Daniel: the ultimate lack of boundaries is codependence. And the ultimate codependence is like borderline personality type behavior where you don't know where the other person leaves off and you begin. And I think that all of us, whether or not we're codependent or whether or not we are. Or whether or not you have borderline personality disorder.

Daniel: Which it's interesting, this is from my mom's question, because it's her favorite thing to diagnose people with from a distance.

Laurel: She's

Daniel: always like, borderline, borderline, borderline, borderline.

Laurel: 20s and narcissists.

Daniel: Yeah. But, you know, Being able to like understand and identify that type of behavior, like the type of behavior where people are blurring their

Laurel: selfhood

Daniel: with other people has actually been really helpful for me.

Daniel: Thanks, mom. So that when I look about jealousy and my own jealousy, because I do experience jealousy, it's at those moments when I don't feel secure enough in myself Yeah. That. I need specific actions or reassurance from the other person in order to feel safe and whole. And I think what you're, you know, what you're saying, and I just would like to reiterate, is the most helpful way to deal with this is look at the source of the emotions rather than the behavior which you think if you can somehow change it is going to make those feelings go away because they're not going to go away.

Daniel: tempting to look toward others and want to be like, well, if you could just do this for me, if you could just show up in this particular way, I would feel okay. And I, I think just knowing that that's not the case and it's a hard thing to come to terms with.

Daniel: There's nothing they can do and there's probably nothing you can do.

Nichole: Well, I think first, acknowledging that you're actually feeling something, because I think a lot of people are very into, or at least I am very into avoidance. and not accepting that I am feeling a certain way.

Nichole: So first accepting that like, yeah, I'm feeling, I'm feeling a certain way. And then acknowledging what it is and, and kind of giving it a name.

Laurel: What's interesting about like your specific, like do something for you method on the surface, maybe it's like, Oh, this is just something that brings me a joy, but also you're like literally taking care of yourself. Like you are literally like making and providing sustenance for yourself, which is like an interesting thing when you're like.

Laurel: When you're worried that someone else isn't going to take good care of you. And then you're like, I can take good care of myself though.

Laurel: What's your process, Laurel? Like, in general, I process. Emotions and just everything pretty slowly. So usually I have to like sit and chew on stuff for a while.

Laurel: Before I'm even like really aware of what I'm feeling. Cause usually I'm like, okay, I'm feeling bad, but what is that bad? Like, am I jealous? And that takes like a minute for me to unpack. And like, Because oftentimes it feels like I'm having a reaction to one specific thing.

Laurel: And in reality, I'm actually having a reaction to a pattern of behaviors or a series of events in my life.

Laurel: It's interesting, like on the notes of like abandonment and betrayal specifically, betrayal is not something I really dealt with until recently when my now ex partner broke up with me to be monogamous with another one of her partners. And I, like, When we met up after the fact, like a month later, and like and I explained, like I actually feel really betrayed because you handed the autonomy that we had over how we related to one another to somebody else.

Laurel: And that was like a really interesting thing to confront, like as a polyamorous person who hasn't really struggled with those feelings before.

Laurel: Abandonment on the other hand, like I've been specifically like with one partner been struggling and I think like on the surface it could look like, Oh, I'm like afraid of being abandoned by this person. But I'm actually not afraid of that.

Laurel: What actually really gets my goat is that I feel like I am putting in a certain amount of effort and energy and it's not being matched. And like, that becomes a complex issue and like, okay, I'm taking that as a sign of lack of respect or a misalignment in our relationship. And in the past, I would have just been like, okay, I'm just going to meet them at the level that they're at. Like, I'm going to stop putting in the amount of effort I'm putting in because it's not being matched.

Laurel: And then I will let the entire relationship. Roll out on that course. And I'm trying really hard to like talk about it. Cause there is a reason, like I put this much effort in, in the first place. And it's because like, I care about this person. And like, they probably deserve the opportunity if they want to meet me where I'm at.

Laurel: And

Nichole: what? I just, I tell me how that goes. I will let you know. Because. It is something that I struggle with real hard. Yeah. I think that in talking about jealousy and, I mean, we're focusing on like our own jealousies and, and how we're relating with relationships. And I almost always give the power to the other person.

Nichole: That's why I try to like be really insular about it is because I'm always expecting the other person to just be a whole ass human being and be like, Fully formed by the time that we get to relate with each other and they have no problems and they're just like they don't experience jealousy or any kind of anxieties or anything.

Nichole: So please just, just keep me posted on how that goes. So with your like identifying abandonment and betrayal and like any. potential for jealousy. Like, do you have any, I'm curious from both of you, do you have any like self soothing techniques that you enjoy?

Daniel: So I've specifically been told by my therapist not to self soothe in a lot of situations. So, my whole thing is that I just feel it, and I stay on the knife's edge of being really scared of abandonment or being alone and I just try and stay there and realize that I'm not gonna die.

Daniel: That I mean, I will die. That's also sometimes reassuring. The certainty of the warm hand of death.

Daniel: But I just try and experience the discomfort and sit in it for as long as possible.

Nichole: But is there anything that comes after?

Daniel: I mean, I think spending time With myself , like you said, is really valuable for me creating art, doing things which create a narrative of who I am outside of the relationship. I was getting a little, a little slogan in my brain, a little nomism.

Daniel: What did they call it? An aphorism? An aphorism, an axiom that like jealousy is anxiety of other people. It's like when you rope somebody into your anxiety and use them as a kind of placeholder for what you're feeling. It's like. Again, that's like, you know, no boundaries, right? Like, now you're part of my shit.

Daniel: You know? And so just the more infrastructure that I can fucking build, you know, as a human with a deep interior life you know, other relationships, friendships um, all the other kind of connections, professional, social putting together Real engagement in all of those that that maybe is Something that helps me in the long run.

Laurel: Yeah, it's interesting. When I'm having a hard time with, you know, some form of jealousy and I'll feel real shitty and get down on myself about it, one of the things that I do is will, like, message my loved ones.

Laurel: Like, friends, or other partners, or even the partner that is, like, activating me in that moment, and, like, say something nice. Because I think, one, it reminds me, like, oh, I do have a wealth of deep connection in my life. And also it helps like take me outside of my own perspective a little bit and be like, here are all of these other people in the world that are all also struggling with their own shit and probably would enjoy, like, like if, if there's a moment where I'm like, Oh, it would really be nice to hear this right now.

Laurel: There's probably somebody in my life that wants to hear that. And so yeah, like you get a sudden smattering of effusive love from me. Maybe I'm feeling shitty.

Nichole: But that's, I mean, I do that too, like at work when I'm feeling particularly stressed I'll take a moment and I'll send a message to one of my coworkers to say like, Hey, I'm really grateful for you. know. Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: And that is also something like getting outside of yourself is also incredible being of service.

Nichole: I, I have a little ritual with every season that passes of something that I do to be of service to other people. I don't really want to talk about it because then I feel like I'm bragging.

Daniel: Nicole fills up her trunk. With water bottles and wellness kits.

Laurel: Oh, I've seen you give these out. For houseless

Daniel: people and drives around and just Gives them out and really practicing, I think, one of the great rules of being a human where you feel like you have limited, like, capacity to give is just that once you start giving, you realize that you have an unlimited amount and it's the giving that replenishes your ability to give.

Daniel: And that's what being Pauly is all about.

Laurel: We've actually found an infinite energy source.

Daniel: My sweet, sweet lovin

Nichole: Come on. Alright, what time is it? It's like almost five.

Daniel: It's not an episode of Polyamateur Hour until Nicole has looked at her watch and went, come on, chop chop, move it along.

Laurel: Somebody needs

Nichole: to, if we're being honest. I would like to start to preheat the oven

Nichole: I'm going to go preheat the oven.

Daniel: You're gonna do it right now?

Nichole: Yeah. That way. I think both

Daniel: of these times we should leave in the moments when Nicole leaves and we narrate here. Okay, here she goes again. You can hear, clomp, clomp, clomp, clomp, clomp, clomp.

Laurel: Where's the coconuts? Where'd you put the

Daniel: coconuts? She's taking her coconuts with

Laurel: her. Oh man.

Daniel: Ah.

Nichole: alright, are we on to Unicorn Hunter Hunters?

Daniel: Unicorn Hunter Hunters.

Nichole: Unicorn Hunter Hunters.

Daniel: It's the segment where we look at the unicorn hunters of the world on the dating apps on our phones and assess. And mercilessly judge them. True. But today it's one that we might actually like.

Daniel: Okay. All right. Cause not all unicorn hunters are good. 90 percent of unicorn hunters suck. Some of them you

Laurel: want to suck.

Daniel: Yeah, some of them suck if you're lucky. Alright, so this couple was one that I saw when we were in Las Vegas. A lot of the best ones are from Las Vegas. Newly married couple as of date redacted.

Daniel: I'm going to redact several details here. Help us celebrate. Devil emoji. Me. 6'1 210, athletic with good arms, green eyes. For the size queens, I'm above average, winky emoji, because I did not know what you were talking about. The winky emoji is vital here to let you know.

Laurel: Wait, is it a wink with a smooch or just a wink?

Daniel: There's no kissy heart thing. Which means there's no affection with his giant dick.

Laurel: Alright.

Daniel: Her, redacted, is gorgeous, dirty blonde size queen, with an insatiable sexual appetite, and a submissive side. She also has a pair of amazing pierced ears.

Daniel: Cherry emojis. Are those tits?

Nichole: I guess. Yeah.

Daniel: Gotta see them and taste them to appreciate them.

Daniel: Visceral. Likes to, oh, multiple times. We are a fun, playful, open minded couple living in Las Vegas. You can find me on Redacted, and we're on FB as Definitely Redacted. She is bisexual, and I am bi situational. We are looking to engage in safe three way, full swap, and group play. So, M M F, F F M, M F M, W W E, A M F M,

Daniel: F M F, M F M F, M M F F, and the rest of it is just binary uh, language. Um, Where are the N B's? Where are the N B's at? And group situations are all welcome. We are intelligent and always feeling sexy. Solo play is on the table for the right opportunities, but we prefer to play together whenever possible.

Daniel: Can't wait to hear from you.

Laurel: Wait, did they really say where are the NBs at? Or did you ad lib that?

Daniel: I ad libbed that. Okay, I was like Because it was all, it was all binary language. Yeah. Like I thought I was hearing the binars speak. Another Star Trek reference. Alright. Thoughts? Discuss.

Nichole: I, I feel intimidated.

Nichole: But also, they do count as unicorn hunters, right?

Daniel: Yeah. I think that we have a generous definition of unicorn hunters. Mhm. It's like a couple who are looking for other stuff. I bet they, you know, my guess is they'd probably be most stoked about.

Nichole: They did make mention of her being bisexual. He's bisituational.

Nichole: Okay. But she is bisexual, which means other bisexual ladies to the front. Yeah.

Daniel: I've never heard the term bisituational before.

Nichole: Does that just mean like, if you're a person with a dick and there's another dick in the room, that's the situation?

Daniel: You got to suck it. Who's gonna suck it?

Laurel: Somebody's gotta suck it.

Laurel: Yeah. It's gonna be me. It's definitely not gonna be my bi wife.

Daniel: Gotta push her out of the way. Everybody's got to suck it. Everybody

Laurel: must suck it. I do appreciate that there is no genitalia requirement.

Daniel: There is none. Although they are, she is a size queen.

Laurel: Yeah. But they're like, they're mentioning, they're, they're mentioning some possible preferences, like they're actually, what I appreciate is they're defining themselves a little bit more.

Laurel: Like, these are the things. I like I'm into rather than saying you must have huge dick or don't talk to us You loser.

Daniel: There are very few rules. I don't think there are any rules really that are actually yeah Yeah, no requirements.

Nichole: There are a few rules. They also like keep the focus on themselves. Yeah which makes me think that they would Really be open to like any any type of person any like You apparently situation, any kind of configuration.

Nichole: And I do kind of love that they're like, we're always feeling sexy. I'm like, what is your secret? I would, I want to always

Daniel: feel

Laurel: sexy. That seems

Nichole: like a lot of pressure to put on yourselves.

Daniel: I mean, dude works out. We're going to pass around the picture in a minute. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Dude works out. Also I feel like it's worth just touching on their pictures because they're obviously like in swinger events.

Daniel: Mm-Hmm. , I don't know what it is. It's like the Swinger Olympics or something. . But there's like the stuff with like, you know how like at film festivals, there's like the, the, they'll have the kind of wallpaper behind them with all the, the

Nichole: step and repeat wall.

Daniel: Yeah. Thank

Nichole: you. That's what it's called. Yes.

Nichole: Yeah. Step and repeat

Daniel: with the insignias of the various Yeah. No sponsors. But they're at some kind of like potley event and there's like pineapples. Stepping over pineapples.

Daniel: Everywhere along the fucking walls. Like there's these people are involved in a vital Las Vegas swinger community. And in a way, like besides the fact that you're just kind of like, a little bit more charming because of their kind of open aperture of what they're interested in and their lack of judgment of others.

Daniel: I also just have a kind of a prurient, like, swinger events and like, what is this world that has been existing below the surface out of sight? Okay, so this is another

Laurel: good contrast. some of the other profiles that are like, We're awesome and party people and so exciting. And rather than being like, We're fuckin awesome epicenter of everything exciting, they're just like, This is about us and also, clearly we just live this lifestyle and here's Us existing in this place.

Nichole: Yeah, do they show their faces? They

Daniel: do, they both show their faces.

Nichole: Incredible.

Daniel: And I think that they're using their real names too because they're just ordinary names.

Laurel: Let's cut to the chase. Yes, I will.

Daniel: Ratings first. Uh, Arbitrary Rules. Let me, let me scan through this again. I don't know. Oh, by the way, in Unicorn Hunter Hunters, we assess the Unicorn Hunters in three criteria. One, Arbitrary Rules. Two, Self aggrandizement. And three, Would we unicorn for them? Alright. Ba ba cha cha bam bam. The closest that they get is they prefer to play together, but it's not a must.

Daniel: There's a little bit of, you know, she is a size queen. There are things that are insinuated about really no rules.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: So I'll give it a one in arbitrary rules.

Nichole: Yeah, me too. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: All right. Self aggrandizement.

Nichole: It doesn't come across to me as self aggrandizement or bombasticity because they just seem like they're Sharing how like we have fun.

Nichole: Don't you want to have fun with us? Cuz you you're probably also fun Oh, what's your type of fun? That could be our type of fun. Like it doesn't seem like they're Also, I don't know that there are any photos of them on a boat. That is always the thing. I'm like, if they're on a fucking boat, that feels braggart.

Daniel: You got a rating for their self aggrandizement?

Nichole: I mean, I would say

Nichole: maybe a two. It comes across as fun.

Laurel: Yeah. And like a little like titillating without being like, like I'm, I'm the fucking shit. It's just like, it's like, oh yeah, no, these are things that are fun. And I like about myself or my partner or whatever.

Laurel: I was in like the two or three range, but like, that's like an appropriate amount of like.

Daniel: I think I'm going to give them a little bit more. You know, it's like saying he's athletic. He's talking about that. He's got a big dick. Like even if it's a little indirect talking about, I mean, it's kind of nice that he's talking about his, his his wife and her, you know, how wonderful she is, that takes a little bit of the self aggrandizement off and, you know, but still it's, it's an extreme language, like, you know, amazing cherry emojis.

Daniel: You gotta taste them to appreciate them. Like, oh, multiple times.

Laurel: Okay, what I also like, though, is that it's like, I'm a human being writing this profile, and also this is my wife, rather than like, We are blah blah blah blah blah. Yes. He colon blah blah blah blah blah. She colon blah blah blah blah blah.

Laurel: Like, someone wrote a fucking personal ad for them. Like, I like the acknowledgement that there is a human being Yes,

Nichole: and that you would likely be talking to one of the human beings. Yes, if you message. Yes

Daniel: I think there's a little bit of self aggrandizement in the photos though. Take a look at this guy Yes.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Okay. Yeah. I mean, yes.

Daniel: Yeah. I mean, but he does have fucking guns. Not literal guns. He's not, he's not showing guys. This guy, this guy is pretty, pretty, pretty ripped. He's pretty ripped. Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess I'd show it off if I were him too, but he's got the sunglasses and the mustache. I mean, I've got, you know,

Nichole: you are wearing glasses and a mustache right now.

Nichole: He's got

Daniel: sunglasses. They're tinted!

Laurel: Lenses!

Daniel: He's so cool! How do

Laurel: I know your eyes are really green?

Daniel: So I'm going to give a little bit of a higher in the self aggrandizement.

Laurel: Okay. I'm

Daniel: going to, I'm going to say, I mean, it's nowhere near the one that we had first time around.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: So I'm going to give him like a five.

Laurel: Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Daniel: And.

Laurel: Maybe Nicole and I are just used to men talking about their dicks all the time.

Nichole: It's just not impressive anymore. Yeah.

Daniel: I fucking walk around with those t shirts. Let's say, ask me about my dick.

Nichole: I actually really want that t shirt. Okay, would you unicorn?

Daniel: Me?

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I haven't met them yet.

Daniel: So, I don't know if I'm gonna give, I don't know if I'm gonna give like, I don't intend any like profile, but based on this, I'll give it like, I'll give that like an eight.

Nichole: Okay. Oh, yeah. I give it a six. It really depends on how I'm feeling that day. Cause if they're always sexual or they're always ready to, Get down, you know, I, I vary in that capacity.

Nichole: Some days I want to, some days I don't.

Daniel: Yeah. Well, luckily as you're, as their unicorn, they will be demanding one night of you.

Laurel: She's got to time it right. Yeah. I feel like, yeah, if I'm like looking to go hook up, like if, yeah, if I were, if I were a solo night in Vegas. I don't message those people.

Daniel: I did message these people.

Laurel: I've got a whole

Daniel: conversation. It just didn't work out timing wise. Otherwise, otherwise when we were in Vegas, we probably would have met them.

Nichole: I mean, we might be going back in January. Yeah. So hey,

Daniel: Redacted and Redacted, we hope you're listening. Meet us at the Redacted and we're going to redact your redaction.

Nichole: If you're into. M. F. F. F. M. Then, we're there. Love it.

Laurel: Oh, the dogs are barking. What's, what's

Daniel: your number?

Laurel: Oh, my number? Yeah, I'll say, nine.

Daniel: Yeah, because you're like a little bit hornier than me.

Nichole: Wow.

Daniel: Is

Nichole: that possible?

Daniel: So

Laurel: long!

Outro: This has been Polyamateur Hour, a production of Risa Records. If you have a question for Ask the Amateurs, or a recommendation for Is This Poly, please email us at polyamateurhour at gmail dot com. If you enjoyed the show, and you know you did, you perv, please subscribe to us on your podcatcher of choice, leave us a five star review, and most importantly, tell at least one person in your life to check us out.

Outro: But we hope you tell three. Remember, the advice given by the amateurs should not be followed. Unless you are prepared to be ecstatically happy, successful, and strange. Until next time!