Laurel: I think Daniel hit record, so we can't talk shit about him while he's gone

Nichole: I don't think we talk shit about him necessarily. I think you and I just exchanged knowing looks. We do a lot of our communication

Nichole: silently. It's nonverbal. We've reached that phase of our relationship where we don't need to. Talk about. We don't need to talk. Yeah. We just need to side eye each other.

Laurel: Every once in a while

Daniel: you have a psychic communication abilities, but only when it's talking shit about me.

Laurel: Yeah. That's my Jew power.

Laurel: Okay. Laurel, what

Nichole: were you asking before?

Laurel: If that song is a real song or if it is just the who's and Whoville, let's sing it.

Laurel: In the Grinch. I was gonna, I was gonna say the night before The Grinch Stole Qu Christmas no, with

Daniel: Stars upon ours.

Laurel: Excuse me. What?

Daniel: sorry. I was just gonna keep tagging other Dr.

Daniel: Seuss. Oh. Just titles onto it. And I chose one that is like the obscure Gen X. Like Oh, he is like early shit, oh, you don't know Speeches on Beaches?

Nichole: I know Speeches on Beaches Stars upon ours. I don't, was that a title

Daniel: Nee On Beaches With Stars Upon Ours?

Daniel: It was on the Colgate Comedy Hour. You wouldn't, oh God, you wouldn't know it.

Nichole: Alright, so Laurel, you were asking if the song that they sang, you were asking if that was a real song?

Nichole: Yeah. Like a song that is not just sung by Who's in Whoville?

Nichole: what song would it be? I mean, it's just the language I'm pretty sure is who language.

Laurel: Creature is just, listen, I, there's a lot of weird Christian Christmas songs in weird languages,

Nichole: you know? That is true. I guess I never put two and two together that the, who's fully believed in Christ and that accepted crisis, their Lord and Savior, and celebrated his birthday every

Laurel: year.

Daniel: This is, one of those things of a Jew celebrating Christmas in private, you know, in his private, creative life, because Dr. Seuss, right? He or Irving

Nichole: Berlin.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Writing the entirety of White Christmas. Exactly.

Daniel: You didn't write the movie, you wrote the song

Nichole: he wrote, the musical.

Laurel: Well, Daniel minus one point for Jew knowledge.

Nichole: I'm sorry, I don't mean

Laurel: to, Nicole is overtaking you on Jew knowledge.

Daniel: Whoa. Nicole just states things with such absolute certitude that there's really nothing that I can do, but agree. I'm just like, okay, cool.

Daniel: And then I Google it later and I wake her up in the middle of the night and I'm like,

Laurel: I was right. That was like me watching the, queer love ultimatum last night and convinced that there were only four people in the room. And Derek was like, no, there are five people around that table. And we had to go back an episode to check how many people were having dinner together.

Laurel: So was this,

was this a, were we both about to make the same reference?

Daniel: Yes. Yes. One, two. Three. There are, there are four lights.

Laurel: I want the audience to know that that really happened. Synchron or the shrink world wise. That was synchronized. Guys,

Nichole: I love that. I love there's somebody at work that just like really mashes together words or comes up with new sayings.

Nichole: So like before, break once she was like, wishing everybody, she's like, I hope you guys have a really great holiday. It's really time to relax and rewind.

Nichole: I was like, what does that even mean?

Laurel: It's just time to go through photo albums and be nostalgic. You'll find that blockbuster. Yeah.

Daniel: I mean, we were talking the other day, about getting a VHS player and I could see, the longing in your eyes when I mentioned the top loaders.

Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Laurel: You know? Oh yeah. I love those. Yes. I watch Sleeping Beauty in one of those bad boys over and over again. And I love the noises it made. Sometimes I just open and close it 'cause I love the noise it made.

Daniel: So I am elder enough where we rented the video cassette players because nobody could actually afford their own video cassette players.

Daniel: Oh yeah. Yep. So you would go to the video store and you would rent the player and the video. Nice. And it was like a giant like briefcase suitcase. It's like, in thrillers, like the kind of thing that you would transport plutonium in or something.

Nichole: Ooh, yeah.

Daniel: Mm-hmm. Yeah,

Nichole: We also, when I was very young, my parents knew the owners of the video store. Ooh.

Laurel: And

Nichole: so the owners would just create copies of the VHSs and send us home with them because they knew, they were like, oh, that young couple has a really little kid and they're probably poor, so we're just gonna give them free video.

Nichole: So almost all of my Disney videos growing up, I didn't I rid Yeah. I didn't have like the cassette, like the clamshell cases. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: My, my experience was very similar, but with soft porn VHS tapes that I would burn from Cinemax in the middle of the night

Laurel: Skin Max.

Laurel: Oh. Yeah. Yeah. So welcome to Poly Amateur Hour.

Daniel: I'm Daniel.

Laurel: I'm Nicole. And I'm Laurel.

Daniel: I should have known that I couldn't start a kind of a little musical introduction with Nicole in the middle. Nicole is just gonna put the brakes on that before it gets to Laurel.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Sorry.

Nichole: It's just who I am. It's my brand.

Daniel: I like it.

Daniel: You no nonsense. You're like, this podcast is a business. We are gonna do this serious button down, tuck in your shirt and let's make some fucking money.

Laurel: My shirt is tucked in. Yes, Laurel, you're doing a good job. Thank you.

Laurel: Let Co Mommy's favorite today, please appease Mommy. Yeah, please appease. Mommy.

Nichole: What's our first segment?

Daniel: Oh, I thought today we would start with a little bit of unicorn hunter hunters. Yay.

Daniel: Seat belts.

Daniel: This one starts simple and then gains speed quickly.

Laurel: It's a snowball baller.

Daniel: Yeah. Hi there. Hi. Yeah, it's a good greeting. Yeah. Enter the room. I'm in an ethically non-monogamous partnership with Jeremy. We are a package deal. No single men, please. I will likely not respond unless you are partnered and interested in meeting us, or you are a single female interested in a three-way connection with us.

Nichole: Okay. Mm-hmm. Are we supposed to know who Jeremy is?

Jeremy. Fuck. Exactly what I was thinking.

Daniel: As a couple. Here's our personal ad Winky emoji. Open-hearted, grounded Sapiosexual.

Daniel: Oh, neuros. Spicy friendly.

Laurel: is that like L-G-B-T-Q Ally? Yeah. They're not neuros spicy, they're

Daniel: just friendly to the spies.

Laurel: It's a weird thing, Like I wouldn't describe people as. neurodivergent friendly, like I would describe our podcast as neurodivergent friendly.

Laurel: Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Nichole: But I wouldn't claim to be neurodivergent friendly. Right. Yeah.

Daniel: Well you do pick up my socks. For me,

Daniel: Heteroflexible Health, conscious fit, kinky Incurably romantic. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ethically, non-monogamous couple seek same. Must love dogs.

Daniel: Available for meaningful connections, friends and dating, leading to long-term relationships and enjoying the ride of playful exploration with other deep souls.

Laurel: Okay,

Daniel: our idea of a good time. Live music, adventurous cuisine. Travel, independent film, intentional altered states, body work, picnics, burning man, art, appreciation in all forms.

Daniel: Alright, uh, buckle your second safety belt. You got your shoulder strap on. Uhhuh a little about me. I'm five six. Curvy fit warrior Goddess. Oh, health nerd. , Lifelong entrepreneur. Oh, Norex. What? Double Capricorn witch and devoted submissive to my alpha dom. Jeremy. Oh, Jeremy.

Laurel: Oh yeah. Oh, Jeremy. Oh yeah.

Laurel: I forgot he was involved.

Daniel: He's in the cuck chair. He sometimes forget He is there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's not though. He's Dom. Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah. He's doming from the cook chair. That's how d he is. Wow.

Daniel: He's so do he went to cook and back to Dom. I love health. My God. God. Happiness for happiness sake.

Nichole: Okay.

Daniel: I mean, I personally am just happy for the street cred. You know, it's like, smile Daniel. Um,

Nichole: I like happiness.

Nichole: Only if it's in service

Laurel: of my profit,

Laurel: Jeremy. Oh, that kind of profit.

Nichole: Money,

Laurel: happiness for Jeremy's sake

Daniel: in

Laurel: service of Jeremy

Daniel: Profit. In the Regi sense. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Not the Jordan sense. Exactly. Yeah.

Laurel: Oh my God.

Daniel: Alright. Hiking food as art?

Nichole: No. No. Okay. What like edible arrangements?

Daniel: I just think they like to look at the food. It's like women laughing and looking at salads.

Nichole: I also think food as art, a pancake with eggs for eyes and bacon. A strip of bacon for a smiler.

Laurel: Hell yeah.

Daniel: Uh, food is art. Mm-hmm. Nutrient density? No.

Laurel: Okay.

Daniel: Creating ritual. Shamanism and asterisk. These people are white, white, white. T white. White, white. That's YouTube.

Laurel: I'm Can am con I am confused on the internet all the time. Are you talking about white people? Are you talking about YouTube? I don't fucking know.

Daniel: okay. Here's my favorite spiritual entrepreneurship. No.

Laurel: Is that, like you made a business out of tarot readings. What is that?

Daniel: Is that literally selling your soul?

Nichole: I think it's having a number of failed cults.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Oh yeah. That's a good point. Probably. Or joining several different MLMs Yeah. That are also spiritual. Yeah. Which absolutely exist. All the oils.

Daniel: I mean, the only thing I think of when I think of spiritual entrepreneurship, is like Scientology and like nm, like that's spiritual entrepreneurship, right?

Nichole: Yes. And there's like the selling of spiritual practices. So like, I worked for an artist who was connected with a bunch of like other kind of WOOWOO people. , Several years ago, and there was a woman in her circle who basically sold like sweat lodge experiences claiming that she was Native American, and so she had a bunch of Native American activists come after her and be like, Hey, like you can't sell sweat lodge experiences.

Nichole: Like this is, this is bad. Yeah. And the artist who I worked for was like, ah, God. And now I can't use the word tribe anymore. Like, fuck.

Laurel: Oh God, fuck off. Love it, love it, love it, love it.

Daniel: onward. Erotic modeling. Flo Demal. What? Bad

Laurel: flowers. Flowers of bad. I think.

Nichole: I think it's a say. What does that mean? Is that

Daniel: pussies? Oh, no. I kind of like that as a, like, show me your bad flower.

Laurel: Ooh, I kinda do too now.

Daniel: Sensuality. Oh, good Comedy. Sassy comebacks. Oh. And Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. must love dogs, pure bred expensive dogs who, , look at you sadly from their won eyes.

Laurel: Yes. Look at you sadly from their genetic defects. Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Oh, I bet Jeremy has no genetic defects. Jeremy is a six foot one fit. GG Double Aquarius Debonair Alpha. Shut off. Okay. He loves innovation.

Nichole: Am I about to attend a seminar? I know with Jeremy.

Laurel: Fuck.

Daniel: Okay. Do you think that they just cut and paste this from their LinkedIn?

Laurel: Yes,

Daniel: yes.

Laurel: Anyways, innovation.

Daniel: Innovation. Apple, everything. Oh, no. Vintage cars, curves, Peloton. Oh, early mornings. Erotic photography. Slow sex.

Daniel: Stand up and shameless flirting. Ugh.

Laurel: I just, I wanna see the pictures in case I know them.

Daniel: Here's picture number one.

Laurel: She looks like a therapist from a bad indie film.

Daniel: She looks like a therapist who's going to cross boundaries with you. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: Here she is sitting on a tree stump, an artistic tree stump.

Laurel: These look like professional headshot probably for her spiritual entrepreneurship at Burning Man,

Daniel: you look really sad. Do you know them? Are you having like a So, I'm just kidding. Oh my God.

Laurel: Oh my God. No, I'm just kidding. I

Daniel: don't know them. You're just saying that. So we don't have to break up.

Laurel: This is where you draw the line of all, of all the bad for me, people I've ever dated.

Laurel: This is where it ends.

Nichole: All right. Well, we rate unicorn hunters on three categories. Self-aggrandizement, arbitrary rules, and would we unicorn

Laurel: self-aggrandizement. there wasn't as much like in your face, like I'm the hottest, sexiest, richest person you'll ever meet, like yelling at you.

Laurel: But everything about there. Dumb fucking interests.

Daniel: It was like they wove capitalism into every countercultural thing that they dropped, like they couldn't leave them alone. It's like spiritual entrepreneurship that makes me, is that an

Nichole: oxymoron that makes me throw up? That is just disgusting. Yeah.

Daniel: My interests include innovation.

Laurel: I wanna innovate on spirituality to capitalize on the market gains.

Daniel: Do you know what a quality Buddhist monk is worth on the open market?

Nichole: I mean, there's nothing more like self-aggrandizing than selling your spirituality. Yeah.

Laurel: Like

Nichole: you believe so firmly that your belief system is worth money that you sell it to other people

Daniel: also. Can I highlight the use of the term?

Laurel: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was yucky.

Daniel: So it's not only like the super pretentious twist on a word that you could just use normally, it is the unnecessary feminization of it, which it's like when people call themselves yoginis. Oh. I mean, it's bad enough when white people are like, I'm a yogi. But when they're like, when they wanna put the extra twist on it.

Daniel: Yeah. And they're like, no, I'm a lady Yogi. I'm a yoi.

Nichole: That was a really good lady impression. I believed you were a lady.

Laurel: I was like, wait, there are only two ladies here. Where did this third one come from? There are

Nichole: four

Laurel: lights. Show me your Florida De Mall.

Nichole: It's literally a brand. Florida de Mall is a brand. Oh, it's a lingerie brand.

Laurel: Oh,

Daniel: So you thought that it was gonna be like, it's a really smart thing. Ooh. Is French flu at the mall? Turns out that they're just more fucking people who are like, we want lingerie fueled fantasies.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah. It's fucking lingerie heads. , I like lingerie. I don't plan my fantasies around it.

Nichole: Not knocking anybody who has that kind of fantasy, if that's what you Yeah,

Laurel: yeah. If that's what you

Nichole: like,

Laurel: yeah., Like some lingerie, makes sex sexier, kind of.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: , Let's set the record straight. I have no problem with lingerie. You burn mine. You take it outta my drawer while I sleep and you burn it. That's because I'm a feminist ally. No, I have a problem with people unnecessarily calling out, lingerie, as like an interest as though it shows some kind of like extra dimension to their personality or their erotic life.

Laurel: Yeah. That's fair. Yes. Is it like me putting in my profile like, like I wear Crocs a lot.

Nichole: It's literally not like that at all. No. Unless you think Crocs are inherently sexy and should be included in the bedroom. It's, I wear crocs,

Laurel: winky emoji,

Nichole: And that's it.

Nichole: Okay. How, how would you rate these people?

Daniel: I'm gonna give them a nine, only because they don't actually seem to have an active cult.

Nichole: I'm gonna give 'em an eight. And you know why Fair? We didn't

Daniel: go through all the pictures.

Nichole: Oh, well I didn't see one on a boat, so they're an eight.

Laurel: Does it count if the boat is an art car?

Daniel: No, absolutely not.

Laurel: I'm also gonna give them a nine because Yeah. I think all of the weird, like entrepreneurship, innovation, uh, that you are a fan of. Apple

Nichole: disgusting

Daniel: I love meditation and Jeff Bezos.

Laurel: All right.

Daniel: I like, I like the actual Amazon and the company,

Nichole: the actual Amazon company.

Laurel: Uh, arbitrary rules. Was there like an opener of like, you should be X, Y, and Z?

Laurel: Or, it was just like, you should not be a single guy.

Daniel: It was pretty much, you shall not be a, you shall not be a single guy.

Nichole: But I think it's the implied rules of like who they're looking for

Daniel: when they mention fit fitness, health, healthy lifestyle, and your peloton

Laurel: and nutrient dense food.

Laurel: Yeah,

Laurel: Oh my God. These people are gonna be talking nutrition at you.

Daniel: Oh, they're raw food enthusiasts. Oh, right. They're

Nichole: not gonna stop talking. They're

Laurel: not, oh,

Nichole: you, you

Laurel: will not get a word in edgewise. And also you're gonna have to buy whatever she is selling by the end of your encounter.

Laurel: It

Nichole: is either essential oil or supplements.

Laurel: spiritual supplements. She's just a drug dealer.

Laurel: I'm gonna give them like a five.

Nichole: I was gonna give 'em a six. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: I'm gonna give them a four.

Nichole: would you Unicorn?

Laurel: No. I don't think I could even like, make it past polite conversation with them.

Laurel: If I like desperately needed sunscreen from somebody on the playa yeah. Yeah. I'd just be like, you know what? Forget it. I'm just gonna burn.

Daniel: They're so into Burning Man, which ostensibly is a non , capitalist

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Environment. Oh. Like you're not supposed to exchange money, but

Laurel: you're not even supposed to wear anything with like brand advertisement. Mm-hmm. On it. Yeah, it's a gifting culture

Laurel: what you do is you prep all of your capitalism beforehand. Mm-hmm. And then you bring it, everything you acquired with capitalism to the desert, and then you exchange it among your peers.

Daniel: You, you bring, you bring a, a wooden painted iPhone just in order to like get your, your jollies out.

Daniel: You know? You just touch it, touch it, touch it.

Nichole: So it's a no

Daniel: no.

Nichole: No,

don't,

Laurel: no.

Laurel: What's next?

Daniel: What's next? So every once in a while we like to prove to steward Dom that we are not completely useless leeches on the community that, we do good and we know people. Who do good? I think it's mostly the latter.

Nichole: It's mostly the LA That's exactly what I was gonna say, Laura.

Nichole: We do okay. And then we bring the people

Daniel: who do good. Yeah. So we like to do a little segment that we call. Practical Poly where we speak to people who are providing some amazing service to the poly community or, or the

Laurel: sex community, the sexual sex community, the sexually active community,

Daniel: the sex people.

Nichole: So this week we have on Courtney Bra from something Positive for Positive People, a nonprofit organization dedicated to erasing the stigma of STIs. So Courtney offers one-on-one peer support calls, yoga therapy sessions, , and support groups. There is a podcast, something positive for positive people,

Daniel: which you have guessed on.

Daniel: this is a little kind of a prisoner exchange situation. Yeah. You go on his pod, he comes on ours.

Nichole: Yes. And I really enjoyed this conversation mostly because I was in the driver's seat this time. I was asking the questions.

Daniel: It's true. I was

Nichole: the captain. Now

Daniel: I'm looking at you. , Yeah, this was a little bit different for us. It's a little bit more of a classical interview with me trying to sabotage it every now and then by just saying completely.

Laurel: Yeah. 'cause Courtney gets into some, like, deep stuff, I guess. , Trigger warnings. We don't do shit like that. Nevermind.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: We get into some serious shit. , Which is sobering for Nicole and I, but not for Daniel.

Daniel: And roll take.

Nichole: Thank you so much for being here. , Courtney, so can we have you introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about the work that you do.

Courtney: Yes. My name is Courtney Bra. , Pronouns are he him.

Courtney: I run a nonprofit organization called Something Positive for Positive People. This is a 5 0 1 C3 nonprofit that supports people who mostly are navigating herpes stigma. But a lot of our conversations have really been more about various intersections of identity. We talk about things with men and emotions or mental health masculinity, as well as,

Courtney: topics of sexual abuse, sexuality, gender. I always say like 15% of the conversation is about herpes. And then the other 85 is I'm here talking to a human. Mm-hmm. With a whole identity outside of that. My big thing really is validating the identities of people who struggle with stigma.

Daniel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That makes so much sense that, a nonprofit that's about herpes is not really about herpes because honestly, right.

Daniel: Herpes is not really about herpes.

Daniel: So, herpes is like 10% of virus and like 90%. All the fucking baggage that we bring along with it, right? Mm-hmm.

Courtney: I always say sexual health is mental health.

Courtney: I mean, it's so much more than that, of course, but simple terms, , because so many people associate their identity so heavily with their sexuality that it's like when they get this diagnosis, it's not, I have herpes, it's I am herpes. And people begin to overly identify with that and start to blame it for things like not being able to be in a relationship, not being able to have sex, or not wanting to put themselves out there, wanting to, settle down faster.

Courtney: Uh, One of the reasons that I started this was because I learned that. Consistently, whenever I'll do surveys, roughly a third of people, 36%, have suicide ideation as a result of their diagnosis.

Nichole: like I know when I got my diagnosis, I felt all of the, what now feels like, typical response.

Nichole: With, feeling dirty, feeling shame, feeling grief. And, I actually had somebody send me your podcast. And so I don't know if people are, , like Googling and then finding you if they're having people reference you either way, however they come to it. I'm just glad they are because what you're offering is such a service to people I'm also wondering, sorry, I'm just like, bogarting this conversation. No, go for it. I, I think because the tables have turned and now I get to ask Courtney questions.

Nichole: Oh yeah. Um, I'm very curious about your polyamory journey.

Nichole: And like how that intersects with, work that you're currently doing.

Courtney: so I remember like, what really got me curious about it. I had a boss when I was living in Houston, Texas. One of the managers there, she had her calendar pulled up and I came over to just like, talk to her.

Courtney: I just really liked her, like as a person. And, we would just talk randomly in the office and she had her calendar pulled up for something and it, they, she had a shared calendar with her partner. I was like, Hey, what's that? She was like, oh yeah, we share a calendar. I was like, I never thought to do that.

Courtney: I guess that turned me on or something. I dunno.

Daniel: I feel like you may be one of the only other people that the use of calendars turns on besides Nicole.

Me, yeah.

Me. Yeah.

Courtney: Yeah. But it's the transparency to me, like the transparent communication, right? Like being able to see, okay, well this is what I have available. Mm-hmm.

Nichole: Like

Courtney: the, I, I guess quality time is one of my love languages. And that stood out to me. And then I learned later that she was polyamorous and I was always like hanging out with these people.

Courtney: I'd had no idea that that was the case. But, I think that it was then that I began to hear language around things that really resonated with me, learning about polyamory really taught me that you can create your relationship style. And I recognize now that so much of the. Polyamory language that I would see or begin to hear about was that people would have these like longstanding genuine connections, relationships that weren't just about physical sex.

Courtney: Mm-hmm. But were also about emotional intimacy or being able to bond over, like, I like anime or cosplay, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, it's really cool to have people, whether there's attraction or not, that just have the same interests as you in different friend groups and being able to do different things with different people., Reflecting on it, I've probably always been polyamorous or practicing things that are normalized in polyamory, but I've always just felt like my own identity was invalidated in the kinds of relationships I was in. Mm-hmm. Because I didn't have the language to communicate , to set the expectations, to have, the necessary boundaries around what needed to have boundaries or even, be able to articulate my needs.

Courtney: That's a whole nother conversation there about like mm-hmm. Needs. But we, we can get into Laura,

Nichole: hopefully you're getting a lot of nods from Laurel. I don't know if you can see her head bobbing up and down,

Daniel: so you work around herpes has been such a big part of your life, creating this nonprofit. How did this intersect with your polyamory journey? Did you come to polyamory after your diagnosis and how has both your diagnosis itself and this shift in your life

Daniel: how did that affect your romantic and sexual life?

Courtney: Oh shit. This is a great, it's, there's multiple questions in it and I'm gonna answer all of them. Yes. Yeah. So I was diagnosed with herpes in 2013.

Courtney: And when I was diagnosed I just,, assumed that, okay, dating's gonna be hard, so let me get back with my exes. So people who were already in the picture or who I had already talked to about herpes, these were the people that I just tried to work on relationships with and they didn't work. And it had nothing to do with herpes, it just wasn't a fit.

Nichole: Hmm.

Courtney: And so in those relationships, I think that what I learned is that it's more important to be compatible more so than it is that a person be okay with me having herpes. And I didn't start the podcast until 2017, so before it was a nonprofit. It was a podcast in 2017, this was when I began interviewing people living with herpes about their experiences.

Courtney: And as I started to, find support groups and dating apps. I started to learn different ways of existing and exploring sexuality. I think this might actually be what exposed me to queerness. And I say queerness by Bell Hooks definition. Not as in who you have sex with, but like just feeling at odds with the world around you and kind of needing to create spaces for yourself.

Courtney: I got to see so many different existences and so many ways of being, not just, sexually, but also in how people do relationships. I remember one of the first experiences that I had after my diagnosis, it was a woman.

Courtney: It was with a woman who's bisexual. And I How explicit can we be here before I go into this? Oh, go all out. We say fuck

all the

Laurel: time.

Courtney: Okay. Alright. So I'm a recovering heteronormativity, monogamous person. Mm-hmm.

Courtney: Coming out of that, I think about the way that I was taught or not taught about sex and how to have sex.

Courtney: It's always been super performance based. And I know that, a lot of times watching porn, men are really just like the props. You either have a hard penis and you show up, and once subpoenas is soft, sex is done. Mm-hmm. That's it. Right? And I met this woman and we're having sex and I've got this, I'm not thinking about it.

Courtney: It's a very unconscious thing of trying to last long. The longer I last, the better the sex is. Mm-hmm. And we got done one time and we like talked. Like, she actually asked me, how was that for you? What'd you like? She's like, I kind of feel like, and this was what set me free, this was what liberated me, y'all.

Courtney: She said to me, she's like, it felt like you wanted to maybe come a lot more. You can come as much as you want. And when she said this, I. Light just illuminate over my body, like I went supersonic or something. I was like, you know, and that, that permission really made me enjoy sex a lot more and be present with it rather than, okay, I need to do sex to this person.

Courtney: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rather than have sex with this person as a shared experience. So it was then, I would say it was probably my first like queer experience or queer sex experience. Having a partner who, wasn't like, oh, I like girls for the guy, but someone who was genuinely just more open and fluid in their sexuality.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: In this instance where you are , blessed with , the, the holy ray of coming as often as you want during that sexual interaction. But also, when you are helping people come to terms with their herpes diagnosis and

Daniel: kind of becoming.

Daniel: More than props. It's like we're all walking around like just little genitals floating around. Especially men, right? Especially men just like little floating dicks. And then all of a sudden you get like a little, a little uh, magic wand touches you, and then a whole human being grows off of the, the floating dick.

Courtney: Can, can that animation be like, for the podcast or for this episode? That is amazing. That's incredible.

We'll work on it.

Laurel: I was curious, Courtney, it feels like a pretty, like, obvious question, but like, what was the turning point or the moment for you where you were like, I have to do this podcast and now I have to make a whole nonprofit around this?

Courtney: Yeah. There have been a few times in my life where I've had instances with suicide, like not directly myself. I've had close relatives who have threatened it. There was a high school football teammate of mine.

Courtney: He died by suicide. I had a family member who also died by suicide. But these instances very much triggered like very intense emotions for me. And I understand, as someone who has worked now with people who have, who are survivors of suicide or who have attempted suicide, I do recognize like how, I guess offensive this can be, but it really makes me angry.

Courtney: So I channeled this anger, not in like yelling at people or frustration or anything like that, but just I channeled it into curiosity in a very creative way. I would say that also allows for me to connect.

Courtney: I think that what I've seen is people's identities be invalidated and that really be what drives people down that road of, suicide ideation.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Courtney: In one of the herpes support groups

Courtney: at one point come across a woman who was in a relationship and she didn't even have symptoms and she came home, told her boyfriend, Hey, I got herpes. His response was the best response you can give if you got it, we got it

Nichole: right.

Courtney: So she and I become friends, and then she told me, she was like, I thought about.

Courtney: Ending my life. I was like, wait, this, this, this one really didn't make sense to me. You have the relationship, you got the best response you can possibly get, and you still want to end your life.

Courtney: Mm-hmm. So there has to be something else here. what is it? So That is actually when I think I went to the internet and was like, Hey, if anybody with herpes wants to talk about it, we can be anonymous. I'll just record the conversation and share it with people who need it. So that was my original intention.

Courtney: I had no idea that so many people would be so willing to share their experiences.

Courtney: And what I would consistently see is. Stigma, like how stigma would show up in regards to people's identity, their mental health. I was like, okay, we're gonna just, we're raise money to pay for people to get therapy and see what happens.

Courtney: So that is the origin story

Nichole: I love that. I am again, I'm, I wanna express my gratitude for you in the work that you do , because it helped me through, , a pretty difficult time. And, I know that you're helping, many, many people and I'm, I'm very grateful for you.

Laurel: Before we let you go, Courtney, can you tell people, like where we can find your podcast and your nonprofit in case we wanna send nice letters about how much you've helped us, so you can keep up the good work.

Courtney: Yeah, thank you. I can be www.spfp.org">found@www.spfp.org, and that's just the acronym for something Positive for Positive People and it's dot org. I'm very active on Instagram. My name is just Courtney Brain, C-O-U-R-T-N-E-Y-B-R-A-M-E. People can listen to the podcast on Spotify. The idea is to minimize stigma. 'Cause I, I don't think that we'll ever get rid of it. I think that what we can do is minimize the impacts of it, and that's really all I'm going for, is to just empower people with presence for them to be able to have their own identities validated as people who are on the other side of stigma.

Daniel: I love that. Thank you.

Nichole: Thank you so much, Courtney.

Daniel: Courtney, this has been great. Courtney, do you think I'm doing my part to minimize stigma by just bone in a lot of people who have HSV?

Oh my God. I mean,

Courtney: you're doing more than minimizing stigma. I think also We need to spread more healthy communication, right? Yeah. So to be someone who is initiating conversations or empowering people with the experience of having dated someone with herpes or just had a conversation with somebody about herpes like that is really what we need.

Courtney: So yeah. Kudos. You bang away. All bang away.

Courtney: I'm gonna tell you like someone told me, you can come as much as you want.

Laurel: Thank you Courtney. Courtney, you're beautiful.

Laurel: Courtney is beautiful. Courtney

Nichole: is beautiful.

Daniel: Courtney is, is a, is a hunk. Yeah. Yeah.

Nichole: Courtney and I first met because we matched on a dating website. Oh, nice.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: That's amazing. We just never ended up going on a date, but we did exchange voice memos. All right. So should we go into ask the amateurs?

Daniel: Let's ask some amateurs.

Nichole: Are you guys ready for this one? Ready? It's long. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Daniel: Buckle your cervix.

Nichole: The question starts at out at, yes. Okay. So I'm Polly and deeply crushing on someone I work with in a restaurant here in Redacted.

Nichole: He's probably not Polly, but when we first admitted, we liked each other openly. We made out, and it was electric that was even in front of a few, albeit, trusted not to spread a rumor. Coworkers. Okay. Since then, though, it's been this weird liminal space where nothing really moves forward for months. He's affectionate in all the small, intoxicating ways he calls me, babe.

Nichole: Kisses me on the cheek or head whenever we hug, and he always makes a point to sit next to me if we're having a group hang. We used to hang out a little before all of this go for drinks or a movie, just the two of us. But since we expressed actual interest, when I mention potential plans like low stakes hangouts, like watching a movie or meeting my cats, he always says yes in person.

Nichole: But those plans never really materialize. He's always super sweet to me. But when I try to take Boulder strides, like a flirty late night invite once where he didn't take the bait, he seems to shut down. I feel like I'm walking on a tightrope. I want him so much and can see a future with him, but I also don't want to put him in a position where he feels pressured into the kind of relationship that might not feel safe or natural for him.

Nichole: To my knowledge, he's only been in monogamous relationships. When we first made out, I told him I was poly and he said he didn't care. But I wonder if that was him trying to be chill when he was actually unsure of how to respond. This has been, this has been several years of safe, flirty coworker scenario.

Nichole: My inclination is to try one last time to schedule something, like set an actual date and if he cancels again, maybe just call it. But if he does agree and show up, then be so open and honest about all the doubts I've been having and create a safe space that he can be honest with me about if my relationship ethos is actually something he's uncomfortable with.

Nichole: I don't want to just hook up. Sometimes I want a real relationship. I can't figure out my next move, continue on as is without causing any ripples and hope he responds to my gentle invites for making this real.

Nichole: Do some sort of ultimatum thing where he, if he reschedules, I'm just done or punch out the truth at the next opportunity where we're mostly alone what might be the next move for me?

Daniel: C

Laurel: Is that the, we're mostly alone option. I think we're mostly alone now.

Daniel: I feel for you Stu, this sounds like it sucks. Yeah, and I think that it's doubly difficult because it has gone on for so long.

Nichole: I think that you were honest from the beginning. This person has maintained a flirty relationship with you, but has not pursued, or has not picked up , what you're putting down.

Nichole: So, I gotta be honest, like of the scenarios that you presented. Like, I would maybe shoot my shot and then let it go. Yeah. Yep. I don't wanna diagnose him, but I can see this becoming a circular conversation where he's like, no, it doesn't bother me.

Nichole: It doesn't bother me. But he's not willing to actually say that he doesn't feel that way about you.

Daniel: Right, right. I want to caution against any more, , conjecture on the part of this stupid when I was listening to this, I was like, wow, the silence between these people is deafening.

Daniel: Yes. Like there are so many things that you have not said things that you believe that you've implied, things that you believe are implied on the part of the stu once removed,

Daniel: you know, Our main piece of advice that we give people in almost every situation, right, is communicate, communicate, communicate. And I think you're in the difficult position now because you've been waiting to communicate for so long that you've got a lot to say, right?

Daniel: Hmm. And when you were, describing the possibility of like going out on a date and then telling him everything about what you've been feeling and how you have been thinking about this and everything that's been going on for so long. I really want you to communicate with him. I really want you to tell him, what's been going on with you.

Daniel: But I also am very wary of letting loose two years worth of thoughts.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: If I have learned anything from my husband with relationships I have been in, it is do not read messages.

Nichole: Do not send messages, do not read like you, like you don't know anything.

Nichole: But I feel for this person because I know being there and like saying like, well I've, I have done all these overtures and I've sent all these, I've made all these gestures and they're not responding.

Nichole: I was with a partner and I noticed that the photo that he had of us was off the wall.

Nichole: Like it, it was missing. And of course my first thought is, oh, he took it down. Like he did not wanna look at that anymore. , And instead of assuming that, taking that home and being depressed about it I asked, I was like, Hey, did you take down our photo? And he was like. No, it fell. I just haven't been able to put, I haven't found the tape to like put it back up yet.

Nichole: Great. Okay. Cleared. Done. That's hours of anxiety that TA saved me.

Daniel: And that was great. 'cause it was in the moment

Nichole: quick. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the thing is that this conversation will not be in the moment for you, Stu. No. Like

Laurel: Yeah. it feels like Stu is having like NRE feelings. Mm-hmm. Like regardless of whether or not it's like, a bonafide relationship. , They're having like the, the chemical reaction like I do agree with you Daniel, of like, don't bring your whole year plus worth of musings on the list to the conversation.

Laurel: Like if you really need an answer one way or the other, I would just ask the person out on a date. I would just be like, Hey, do you wanna go on like a date, date this weekend? Do the Laurel do the

Nichole: Laurel and be like, and say, Hey, this is gonna be a date. Yeah. Do you wanna go on a date? Yeah. Date,

Laurel: yeah. DATE date.

Laurel: And then like, if the answer to that is more or less no, then , at that point in your future interactions, you get to start putting up whatever boundaries you want about the, like, flirtiness and physical intimacy that they show you.

Laurel: If the answer is yes, then go on a date and then talk about polyamory. I would prepare yourself for the No. And for that to just be it, , , like you don't need any further discussion.

Laurel: Yes. After that, like, all you need to do is then start enforcing your own boundaries after that point about how you interact with that person.

Nichole: And I think yes, be prepared for the no, but also. , Okay.

Nichole: This might be total conjecture. It might be total projection, but I just like, I, I've known this kind of person Yeah. That will skate around and keep you on the hook because they want that. Yes,

Laurel: yes. And so be prepared for the maybe Yeah. It's prepared for the

Nichole: maybe, so like, maybe only accept a Yes.

Laurel: Yeah.

Laurel: That's a good point.

Daniel: I think deciding what you really want out of this relationship is probably really healthy too.

Daniel: Yeah. Right. And I think that You've been having a conversation with them that they have not been participating in.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: Yes.

Nichole: Because the last three scenarios that we were given, like.

Nichole: Stu is going to make a decision based on their response. Right. And that it can only be one of three responses, like as much as you want to control the situation, you're not gonna be able to control the situation. So letting go of the outcome is going to serve you. Mm-hmm. So, well, yeah.

Laurel: Yeah, I really like what you said about how Yeah. Stubert gives like three possible outcomes and you're like, none of those are gonna exist. It's so true. 'cause anytime that I try to like make a flow chart, of like if this, then that like yeah. None of them come to fruition.

Laurel: Yep. Because that's not how life works. There's always some kind of twist or caveat Yeah. That makes the rest of the flow chart not super relevant.

Nichole: Yes.

Laurel: So yeah, it is really like, what is actually acceptable?

Laurel: What's an acceptable yes. Response to you? Does it have to be a Hell yes. I wanna give a capital R relationship a try. Or there's some variations of that that you're willing to accept. Like, and then depending on what you're willing to accept how, how might you want to modify your own behavior

Daniel: I realize, I've been filtering my response through the lens of trying to help the steward get what they want. I.

Laurel: Mm.

Daniel: Right? But I wonder whether, my real feeling is you should let it go before any of it.

Daniel: Like if I'm, if I'm going with my gut here mm-hmm. like, it sounds like there hasn't been a lot of interest, which has been demonstrated on the other side and it sounds like your interest is so strong

Daniel: and I wonder whether I. Anything is really possible at this point. And I hate to have to say that, but I think it has to be said that you should look at this, . And consider whether it might have been all a dream,

Nichole: Yeah. I, I think it depends on what this person might be needing, because some people have the tools to let shit go like this, right? Some folks need closure.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: So this person just might need to hear from this person, I don't feel about you that way.

Daniel: Yeah. The part that I want them to let go, specifically the part that keeps ringing in my ears is I can see a future together with this person.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For somebody that you've really only like made out with once at a party like I. I think that that's something that you should do some work to dismantle, let go kill it with fire. You know, just that's, that kind of construction is something that regardless of how things go, you're gonna be better off if you can let go of that.

Laurel: I agree.

Laurel: Did, did we answer the question? I think so.

Nichole: Thank you for your question though, Stu.

Daniel: Yeah. Thank you Stu. Sorry, sorry, I got intense.

Laurel: Oh my God, it was so intense. You're not sorry. Things got weird. That's so weird. I feel really uncomfortable now.

Laurel: Were you talking to me? What do you want me to let go?

Daniel: I am gonna start singing the song.

Nichole: The

Daniel: Frozen song. Song. Song, yeah, but I don't know it, so I'm just gonna make up lyrics and melody.

Nichole: Do it. Do it. Do it.

Daniel: Let it go. Let it go. Remove your talents from the situation. Let it go. Let it go. You're having just a one-sided conversation. He's a coworker who you made out with, so I doubt he's going to give you his gift.

Daniel: Of a bad flower, bad boy. Flower, bad flower, bad boy. Flower.

Daniel: I sorry, you asked. Oh

Nichole: God. Oh my God. And that feel like, that feels like, like the porn parody of songs because it's like so close to what the song actually is, but it's so far removed. Yeah, I was, but you see shades of like what, what it is supposed to be.

Daniel: I feel like it's a, it's a combination of whatever that song is that I've gotten by osmosis and.

Daniel: That musical episode of It's Always Sunny

that I made you watch the other day. Yeah. Is it, uh, Gotta pay the troll. Troll. Get into this boy's hole. Boy, soul,

boy Soul. It's what I said,

Stu. I'm

Daniel: sorry, Stu.

Nichole: You gotta pay the troll

Daniel: to, you gotta play. You gotta pay the troll to,

Nichole: oh my God. Oh, what's

Daniel: next? Shall we move along home fast?

Nichole: Okay. Read alert.

Daniel: Read alert,

Nichole: read alert. Okay guys. Read, alert not to read. 'cause Reid's not gonna be there. Fuck you Reed. Just kidding. Just kidding. Just

Daniel: kidding. Please come

Laurel: read Reid. Can't. Reid has plans. Oh yeah,

Daniel: yeah.

Laurel: Reid's busy. Fuck you, Reid.

Daniel: What if we had just canceled our plans and gone on the cruise with Reed?

We can't blow, don't blow up Reed's plans like

Nichole: they're gonna find him. They're all gonna find him. Stubbert will find him. But Stuss should find us at Star Trek Las Vegas.

Daniel: Every year we, we take the Q down to the nerd town, down to Nerd Town, also known as Las Vegas, the nerdiest of towns.

Daniel: Yeah. We're gonna be in glorious, glorious cosplay.

Nichole: Oh, fuck yeah. Stuss. I use this as an excuse to slut it up every year,

Daniel: We know that a lot of stuss tune in just for the audio representation of Nicole's tits.

Laurel: Yes, I get it. I use it as an excuse to pull out my bald cap,

Daniel: so Stubbert, this is a little game that we can play. Guess what? Star Trek, cosplay Laurel is going to use a bald cap for.

Nichole: There's so many options.

Daniel: So this year. The first year that we will have a living, breathing beautiful podcast. Boy,

what whatcha talking about?

Daniel: Podcast is a real boy.

Laurel: It's like so confusing. What? Like, I know what you mean, but I don't, it's like, it's like the first year we're going that like we have a podcast in which we can gather people around. Ah, podcast boy.

Daniel: Thank you for, thank you for translating. Yeah. Thank you for translating. Yes.

Daniel: It's Pinocchio,

Nichole: God, God.

Daniel: And this year we're looking forward. We're looking forward, we're licking forward to relaxing and rewinding

Daniel: with a chill hang with our beloved Stubbert at Star Trek Las Vegas. A convention that has. Nothing to do with polyamory,

Nichole: but is the most polyamorous of all the conventions. Definitely,

Daniel: yeah.

Daniel: So if you're going to be at STLV or you are thinking of coming to STLV, please reach out to

Laurel: us.

Laurel: at Poly amateur hour@gmail.com. Or you can DM us on Instagram at poly amateur Hour. But do one of those, don't do the anonymous thing

Daniel: yeah, don't write in anonymously 'cause that's really creepy.

Daniel: And you're gonna be like, so I'm gonna be at Star Trek Las Vegas, but you don't know who I am. I will be walking several steps behind you touching your bald cap.

Laurel: What if they do like a riddle, like a complicated riddle that reveals the cosplay? They'll come as, but then there's like 18 nurse chapels and we have to like pick which nurse chapel is and we have to guess correctly.

Laurel: And if we do, she opens up her uniform and there's a, I'm with Stu shirt under it.

Daniel: Then we're all gonna fuck you, Steven.

Laurel: Oh my God.

Laurel: If you want that, it's not a threat.

Daniel: I mean, if you're going through all that fucking Aly bullshit,

Laurel: all this bullshit,

Daniel: this is a Star Trek oly situation.

Laurel: Oh my God. All right. If you're coming to SDLV and your cosplay is oly, please reach out to us.

Nichole: Or if you're coming to SDLV. Don't tell us what you're gonna be and then come as Amelie Yes.

Nichole: And we'll be like, yep.

Daniel: If you don't wanna sleep with us, do not set up an erotic Rube Goldberg machine.

Antic Rube Goldberg machine.