Nichole: I just got an alert on my phone from the New York Times. Uhoh. What do they want? The headline said why Gen Z is staring at you.

Nichole: It's,

Daniel: it's 'cause they're on ketamine.

Nichole: Well, it reminded me I was out with a few friends like a couple Fridays ago, , and it was like 10:00 PM on a Friday night and we were outside. this bar. And I saw this like gaggle of Gen Z like walking toward us. Mm-hmm. And just my arms immediately went straight and, or like went on my hips.

Nichole: 'cause I was like trying to like, I, what am I doing? Like I just, I don't want them to, I don't want them to notice me. I almost hid behind my friend don't want them to notice me. Well, they were like, whatcha doing? I was like, they're gonna make fun of my side parted hair and they're gonna accuse me of wearing skinny jeans and I just don't want them to,

Daniel: I think at that point it's too late, babe.

Daniel: You know, if you see them. They see you. the trick is that you carry around like a cowbell, something loud to scare them away from a distance, or you just remain very

Nichole: still?

Laurel: No, all you have to do is start calling someone on your phone and then just have it on speaker. So the ringtone is really loud and they're like, holy fuck.

Laurel: A phone call. And they run away. Run away.

Daniel: This has been Gen Z scattering tips.

Laurel: I mean, to be fair, I don't like the generational news. Totally. Like where they just describe a character trait that they've seen on like two tiktoks. Mm-hmm. And then like. Write an article about how a whole generation is staring at

Nichole: you.

Nichole: Well, I think that millennials got the worst of it.

Laurel: Yeah. You know, like when we were coming

Nichole: up, it, everything was our fault. Yeah. And it is now, the boomers and Gen Z are blaming millennials for everything. So I think I'm just particularly sensitive.

Daniel: I am just so grateful for Gen X invisibility.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: You know,

Laurel: I'm jealous.

Laurel: Yeah. That is nice. I think it is one of those things where it's like, well, we had to suffer through it, so you have to suffer through it. Mm-hmm. And so it's , like millennial revenge on the wrong people. Mm-hmm. Oh, like being.

Laurel: Called out for things that they like. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just like, I don't just fucking let people like what they like. I fucking love avocado toast. Fuck you,

Nichole: God damn. Me too.

Nichole: And I will part my hair to the side till the day I die.

Daniel: I don't know. What does Gen X have? Like, oh, we really like new wave music and Bong hits. I don't know, like, and everyone got on board with that. Yeah.

Laurel: And everyone's like, yeah, that makes sense.

Laurel: Oh,

Daniel: welcome to Poly Amateur Hour.

Laurel: I'm Laurel, I'm Nicole.

Daniel: I'm Daniel. Is that a record? Did we get to our introduction faster than ever before, I

Laurel: think. Yeah, we, we might be getting the hang of this guys,

I don't know, 50 episodes later.

Daniel: sometimes I feel a little bit like I'm fronting with the whole Gen X thing because I'm not nearly as like deep Gen X as people who actually bought. Blondie albums when they came out. Mm. I'm tail end of Gen X,

Laurel: obviously, obviously it's like when I tell people I'm a Libra and then they're like, oh, when's your birthday? And I tell them, and they're like, oh, what? cause I think it's on the cusp of Scorpio. I don't know, I don't know this territory, but like, is God,

Nichole: me neither.

Laurel: I get a like, oh cool, you're Libra.

Laurel: And then I get a, oh, I, and I'm like, well, fuck you too.

Daniel: are these Libras that are gatekeeping for you

Nichole: often? No, actually no. Is that a Libra trait? I know nothing about. Astrology

Laurel: daniel knows the most about astrology out of all of us, which I think is like kind of hilarious because like, I'm a queer woman. I'm supposed to know about astrology,

uhhuh.

Laurel: But Daniel as a cis man, I feel like you're a furthest from supposed to know astrology.

Daniel: Oh yeah. But there's all the other things that I am like Pacific North Westerner.

Laurel: Yeah, that's true.

Daniel: That requires a certain knowledge of astrology to escape, you know? Astrology based bullying as a child. Uhhuh,

Laurel: it's true. It's running rampant in Oregon public schools.

Daniel: Also, I think that I am raised by the most feral hippies. Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Of the three of us. Yes. True. I wasn't really raised with Judaism, but with like weird hippie witchcraft for the first 10 years of my life. But it was under the guise of Judaism in that we would have Shabbat nights, right? Yeah.

Daniel: But it was sitting cross-legged in like the lotus position in front of my mom's meditation table and drawing tarot cards and gazing into crystal orbs and pieces of obsidian and smelling spice boxes.

Daniel: I love this for you.

Laurel: I,

Nichole: wow. everything in my body is like, I don't know how long I could sit there. Like, I just like, just I would indulge probably for like, 45 minutes and then I would be like, I gotta go make a list or something. I to like,

Daniel: I gotta go do the dishes.

Daniel: How you cleanse your palate.

Laurel: Yes. I gotta go make a list. I'm sorry guys.

Daniel: So when you are emptying your mind with a spreadsheet, is it better if the cells are empty or do you want, or do you want some data in there?

Laurel: No, I think the practice is filling the spreadsheet. Yeah.

Daniel: You start with emptiness. Yes.

Daniel: You take your thoughts

Laurel: and you put 'em on the spreadsheet and you don't need your thoughts anymore.

Daniel: Your mind becomes the empty spreadsheet once you transfer the data. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yes. You're

Laurel: doing a little copy pasta.

Daniel: Nice. Nice.

Nichole: Uh, we've talked a lot about, , generations and age.

Nichole: Mm. Oh,

Daniel: uhhuh.

Laurel: Which brings me to my bone to pick,

Laurel: I hate perimenopause, but I don't even know if I hate perimenopause.

Laurel: I hate how fucking little our culture and our medical system talk about it and acknowledge it and know what the fuck is going on with it.

Nichole: I did not hear this word until maybe a year ago.

Laurel: Same. , For anyone who's not aware, perimenopause is sort of the period of time leading up to menopause where your hormones just fluctuate a lot.

Laurel: , I've heard it recently referred to as cougar puberty, what, you know, cougars are like hot, older women, Cougar.

Daniel: Ty, I, I was like, how can I port man to this shit? Yeah. And Nicole

Laurel: beat you to it? Beat you to

Daniel: it. Damnit.

Laurel: But yeah, it everyone's symptoms are gonna be different. Mm-hmm. , But for me I've been experiencing, fatigue, brain fog, hot flashes, extreme mood swings,

Daniel: tell me about it.

Laurel: Deeper depression. dryness, just everywhere.

Mm mm-hmm.

Laurel: Like dry eyes, dry mouth. I'm waiting for Daniel to say something.

Daniel: Are, are you saying that your skin isn't lubricated enough?

Laurel: My skin is not lubricated enough.

Laurel: , I think partially because of the dryness, even some like changes in experiencing like sexual pleasure, feeling more pain or like slower to orgasm. I've listed these symptoms to multiple doctors now, and every time I forget a handful of them.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Because my memory is fucked. , But also there are so many of them. Yeah. it has been so frustrating.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: And I think women in general are culturally conditioned to just sort of deal with things and move on, especially if it involves pain, , and emotion,

Daniel: mm-hmm. And it seemed like you were sharing this with multiple doctors for a while.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: And you would just get the shrug and not even like a charming poly amateur hour Jewish shrug.

Laurel: No, just a You're too young. I'm 39 for reference. Yeah. I'll be 40 soon. And then I would get the, let's play whack-a-mole with your symptoms.

Laurel: Hmm. And what that amounted to, was just like a litany of pharmaceuticals. which I didn't take up any of them, I was also getting information that was not correct from doctors. Mm-hmm. oh, well, to do anything, like, we're gonna have to test your hormones, like it makes sense to test hormones to establish if someone is in menopause.

Mm-hmm.

Laurel: Because at that point in time, your hormones are consistently low. Mm-hmm. Perimenopause. Your hormones are so fucking all over the place.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: That the results are gonna change day to day. Yeah.

Laurel: Anyways.

Laurel: Had to deal with this with several doctors. Very frustrating. , my metamore reached out to me and told me a lot about her experience in fighting for and getting treatment, , amazingly, hugely helpful. I'm finally now like getting proper, like HRT for it.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Also found out I have an extreme vitamin B12 deficiency.

Nichole: What, What is it called?

Daniel: Pernicious anemia.

Laurel: Pernicious anemia.

Nichole: So it just, it just sounds so sadistic.

Nichole: Like it just, it sounds like it. It's coming up. Within you. Yeah. It's like

Laurel: he, I'll get you my pretty,

Daniel: we, we like to anthropomorphize all of our conditions. Perimenopause is our drag king name. Yeah. Yeah. Here, here on the, uh, podcast. And, , pernicious anemia is now gonna be like the annoyed. Yes.

Laurel: Well, the funny thing is they often call, , perimenopause, early ovarian failure. Whoa, geez. Yes. Like, fuck you. Like what?

Daniel: You know, I think your ovaries just need to try harder. Yeah. Like,

Laurel: what the hell? It's so insane.

Nichole: this is where I am appreciative of you sharing your direct experience and not selling a supplement with it.

Nichole: 'cause this is the thing, this is the thing about. Like little known, particularly like female anatomy Yes. conditions, is that you have influencers filling that space. Yep. This is part of the reason why I'm not on social media anymore is that I see this with perimenopause. Yes. I see all these people filling the space of like, if you take these supplements that I'm sponsored by, your symptoms will be fine. Yep. And it's, I think it's just such a dangerous territory, and that's why I'm grateful for your metamor to like just Oh yeah.

Nichole: Straight up. Share their experience with you. Yes. Yes. And it's a direct human to human contact. Yeah.

Daniel: What if Laurel was planning on plugging her new supplement line and I'm

Laurel: just like, I just like scoot like, like a cat, just knock all of my supplement bottles off of the table and I'm like. Nevermind about that,

Nichole: then I'd be like, yeah, I guess we can monetize the podcast now and this is the way to go.

Nichole: Worked for Joe Rogan. Right.

Daniel: That's true. Can we get a moment of what is it like? What's the reverse of a bone? To pick a bone? To lick

Nichole: what?

Daniel: For finally getting a doctor who actually listens to you

Laurel: Yes. It was night and day between the experiences that I had with my physicians and then going and seeing Daniel Nicole's naturopath , she also like specializes in like hormone therapy and menopause and perimenopause.

Nichole: And to be clear, we didn't intend for the entire poly hill to see the same doctor.

Nichole: Like that, that wasn't, wasn't our intention. We just happened to have the best one. And we wanted, this is part of the power of polyamory, right? Uh,

Daniel: I thought we were, I thought we were monetizing it. Are we doing an ad for Heidi? No,

Nichole: but you know, your metamor reached out Yeah. With actual information.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: , We connected you with our, primary care physician who could help you with actual information.

Nichole: Yeah. And you took action to make yourself feel better now, like this is also the thing with. Polyamory that I appreciate is like, if I take care of myself, I'm gonna show up for my relationships better. Yes. Yeah.

Nichole: Right?

Laurel: Yeah. The symptoms were like debilitating in a way where I was having trouble showing up for work and showing up for my relationships.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. because I was irritable, distraught, exhausted, to the extent like it, it is, is pernicious the right word?

Daniel: Let's just start, let's just start using it everywhere now.

Laurel: Everywhere. Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah. So I'm super mad with the medical industry, , and the patriarchy. I think those two things combined have just led to such little lackluster knowledge on women's health. I just feel like there's probably so much more we could be doing for people if we fucking understood this shit a little bit.

Daniel: Sing it. Luigi.

Oh my god. Oh my.

Nichole: Oh, are you looking at me to do it?

Daniel: Somebody do it. Who's gonna do it? Are you gonna do it?

Nichole: Do a

Laurel: segue?

Daniel: Yeah. Now that you know you're, you're feeling better.

Laurel: No, now I'm cured. I got a little hormone patch and I got shot up with vitamin B12 yeah, I feel like a champ.

Daniel: We got you a superman cape.

Laurel: It's mostly the cape that's doing it, if I'm being honest. It's the way people look at me with the cape,

Daniel: I mean. One for your dog.

Laurel: We're gonna go run a bicycle around now and let our capes flap in the wind.

Nichole: Aw. I really just imagined Zoe as et make a little blanket in your basket.

Laurel: feel like ET is actually just like way more calm than Zoe is.

Nichole: Oh, for sure. Except when he goes, ah,

Laurel: yeah, it's Zoe. Is is et and perpetual ah,

Nichole: mode. I'm desperately looking for a segue and I can't find one.

Laurel: Yeah. I don't know. How do we segue? Speaking of Zoe, she threw up on a book once.

Daniel: That was your opening line, wasn't it?

Laurel: To Alex? Yeah, I think we just started talking about that pretty immediately. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nichole: So we had an amazing conversation with Alex Alberto. Yeah. And Laurel, I wanna thank you for bringing them, bringing their work to us.

Laurel: Yeah. They're an amazing writer, author, and just a really like, interesting, thoughtful person. ,

Nichole: Their book is. Entwined essays on polyamory and creating home, and you will hear us immediately gush about how amazing it is.

Daniel: and foremost, we're having Alex on for our segment, practical Poly.



Daniel: Practical Poly is the segment where we talk to people who are providing some kind of service to the poly communities. But today I'm super stoked because we're having somebody who is offering a creative service, the service of storytelling.

Nichole: Hmm. That's nice. Yeah. That's nice.

Laurel: Should we roll tape? Oh, let's roll it

Laurel: I realized a thing that. Often we don't actually introduce ourselves to the guests. I just realized this. So I'm Laurel, I'm the one that's been messaging you on Instagram.

Daniel: Ni nice to meet you. Hi

Laurel: Nicole. Hi. Yeah,

Daniel: and I'm Daniel. I'm the one who forgot to put the Zoom link on.

Alex: It happens to me a lot.

Alex: And I did go back and listen to your very, very first episode. 'cause I was like, I feel like there must be some like, background information. Mm-hmm. So I feel like I got like the basics. 'cause like I've listened to a few more recent ones, but when you haven't like followed for a long time, I'm like.

Alex: What's the history? Uhhuh? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was nice. Yeah.

Daniel: You're like, how bad was their sound quality at the outset? No. What is this journey? It was great before they went on a tech quest, but I mean,

Alex: I'm impressed. Like this whole setup is very professional. Oh God.

Nichole: Thank you. Thank

Laurel: you. It's the Red Miller curtains.

Laurel: I get up,

Nichole (2): If I can just like dive right in. Do it. Alex, I've been listening to your voice for the last couple of days, the audio version of your book.

Nichole (2): I love it. And, I don't know that I have read or heard. Pieces that I resonate with so well, like so strongly. , As far as mirroring my own experience, but also like using vocabulary that I have used thank you so much for. Writing this work, I, I feel very seen. and I'm just, I am, I just wanted to express my gratitude at the top.

Alex: Thank you so much. That really means a lot. It's like, you know, you write it, you put it out there, and then you don't really know what it's gonna do, and it's like, this is why I wrote it. Mm-hmm. I just, I needed to feel seen, you know, however many years ago. And it just means the world to me that like readers, like you then feel seen. Also, I also learned listening to your very first episode that Nicole, you really love Sleeping Alone, which I do as well.

Nichole: Okay. Okay. So the chapter, um, the essay about beginner, intermediate, advanced, , when you're talking about like. Dawn having overnights and the advanced version is like, I get to get in my sweatpants. I get to eat like what I want. That was also just a piece that I just felt so I clicked so hard with that because yes, I do love sleeping alone.

Daniel: We all love. The book except for Laurel's dog Zoe.

Laurel: Yeah, Zoe puked all over it. She is my most, , resentful, monogamous, baggage filled partner. So yeah, she was just having a hard day one day and puked all over the book and I just like slopped it off and kept reading.

Daniel: I mean, this is amazing. What an honor, I think, I think that makes you part of the molecule now. Yeah. one of the things that I really like about the book is how. You start with An initial essay that is a glossary. So it's like a Trojan horse of actual writing and experience.

Daniel: You're like, well, you know, polyamorous people are, are used to having glossaries. Yes. But then it does this, ingenious trick of segwaying us into direct experience where instead of getting the cookie cutter definitions we get your actual life. And,

Alex: Yeah. Like today, there are a lot of how-to books and many of them are amazing, but I just feel like we're still lacking stories. Mm-hmm. Just narratives that we can get lost in. And that's really what I wanted to focus on in the book.

Laurel: I thought I was gonna be doing all the gushing and then you two just came out in full force.

Laurel: So, sorry. So thank you for taking care of that for me. Alex, would you mind telling us about. Your poly journey a little bit. I know you talk about that a lot in the book, obviously, but just like for listeners but also like your journey into writing

Alex: yeah,

Alex: so the book basically covers my first decade into polyamory where I was unpartnered when I started being interested in polyamory. I had just moved to New York City from Montreal. That is my French Canadian accent. By the way. If anyone is wondering, sometimes it, like, people are, people think, what is this accent?

Alex: And it's distracting for them.

Daniel: Alex. You're not our first French Canadian guest. And so I'm hoping that we can Oh, have you had

Laurel: Marito? No. No. Uh, Sam Kat.

Laurel: shrimp teeth is there. Oh wait, I did

Alex: listen to that

Laurel: episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel: And so we're hoping that we can now convince our audience that this is the polyamorous accent.

Laurel: So it sounds like we have a third French Canadian we need to bring on. Yeah,

Alex: I absolutely love it. , Yes. So moved to New York and I was like. There's gotta be a way to try all monogamy here, and some of the book will show a little bit when I was kind of dating on my own and figuring out what I wanted and also how people interpreted my, , disclosing of I'm interested in all monogamy.

Alex: And sometimes that led to, oh, you mean I can cheat on my partner? Mm-hmm. , Which yeah, wasn't it, but eventually I ended up in, you know, a primary type partnership with Dawn, my longest term partner that I'm still with today. So we've been together about 10 years And then the book kind of goes through, sort of our journey then together through polyamory and through figuring out how we wanted to structure our relationship, questioning hierarchy, falling in love, having heartbreak, , there's a little bit about my gender queerness and my gender journey., And then past the book. , My situation today is I live upstate New York with my partner Dawn and, , my meta more saga.

Alex: And we are the three of us co-parenting kids who are saga's kids. , But Dawn and I are now also, , parenting. Hmm.

Alex: And you asked about my writing and I realized I didn't, go into that. So I worked in tech for a few years but I really started writing purely because I felt like there were not enough stories.

Alex: , Because you can read in the how to books, but the same way we've seen. Movies and, and love stories and books our entire lives like that is all seeping through and in the air.

Alex: And I, I just thought if there was only more polyamorous stories in the air, people could also figure out what they can even dream of. And that's why I started writing it. At first. I started doing storytelling, so kind of going to open mics mm-hmm.

Alex: like, I never really wanted to be a performer. I just felt, oh, I can't write in English. No. You know, I can't write in my second language. But then eventually I started taking, you know, some classes and joining writing groups and it kind of just grew from there.

Daniel: I think what that also allows people to do is see themselves in polyamory, like to imagine themselves in that situation, in the way that education can't do pure education. I think that's one of the reasons why Nicole, like you felt such an affinity for this is because you see the details and it feels like life as lived.

Nichole: Yeah. Yeah. I mean. Alex, I wrote so many notes. Oh. Oh,

Daniel: shit. Nicole's breaking out the notes. I just, this is, I feel this is a no spreadsheet zone.

Nichole: It's not a spreadsheet. It's, it's not spreadsheet, it's notes,

Daniel: spreadsheets.

Nichole: I just, I, I, it's mostly just like, have totally been there with Carlos who used complete sentences in his, profile.

Nichole: , I like the word constellation too. Um, instead of Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. , , the relationship between you and dod then started as open, right? There are so many books about opening a relationship Daniel and I started nonno as non, I can't even say that.

Daniel: Menina, we started as Menina.

Nichole: We started open. and, you know, we're a little bit more non-monogamous before we moved to polyamory, but, , I was just having a conversation the other day with somebody who was like, yeah, it's so rare to find somebody else who is in a committed relationship that started as non-monogamous and has been long term.

Daniel: And also that it was not like the, the smoothest takeoff and flight ever. Yes. Like it's a, it's a messy evolution. Yes. That's depicted in Yeah. Your book and mm-hmm. These are the things that actually like, let us know that this is a real person had a writing teacher once there was some onion skins in the bottom of a grocery bag that was depicted in a short story. And a student was like, what are the onion skins about? And the teacher was just like, oh, well sometimes you just need onion skins to like, let people know that you are actually, that you're a real person, a real person.

Daniel: And I just appreciated the onion skins. Mm-hmm. So much , in your writing. speaking of onion skins, how do you keep your kitchen floors clean? 'cause there's a lot of kitchen floor sex in the book. Oh my God. Is there a lot, is there more than once? There's, there's at least two

Alex: instances. Oh, maybe there's like.

Alex: There's, oh, that is funny. I mean, I definitely remember one, I'm like, what's the other kitchen floor? I'll have to go mind the book again. , I love when people do such close readings and it's like, wow, I didn't even notice that myself. , You know, I, I grew up, that's so funny. I grew up with my dad using the Swiffer Daily on the floor.

Alex: Oh my God. And But if I recall, there were couch cushions also on that checkered kitchen floor, so Oh, oh. We were not like, fully directly on it. You know,

Daniel: you guys, if I get a Swiffer. Can, you know, can,

Laurel: do you want, you wanna have more sex on the kitchen floor? Yeah. Yeah. We'll discuss Nicole like,

Alex: oh, I remember the second one. It's between the refrigerator and the oven. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laurel: Oh man. Got it. Oh, it's so good. We've been touching on this a little bit, your writing is sort of one of the first exposures that I've had .

Laurel: To a creative mind talking about polyamory. Whereas so much of what we get, we've been talking about like the how to books and stuff, has been a counselor or an educator's mind I'm curious about like your thoughts on it of like what it means to start having creatives talk about your community and like your way of life.

Alex: thank you for this observation. I've never thought about it this way and , it's really interesting because once I started writing then it's like in real time I start noticing the story as it could be told, Or noticing things like, oh, I should jot this down so I don't forget this detail.

Alex: For those who are not familiar with my book listening, the book isn't written like, you know, a novel beginning to end.

Alex: There are a lot of different essays or chapters, if you will, that are in different forms. Mm-hmm. So, like Danielle was talking about a glossary, but instead of a definition, you get like a vignette of a moment in my life. , There's at some point like a play, but with internal thoughts, there's a love letter.

Alex: There's, and for me, exploring with form mimicked how I get to explore with forms in my relationships. Ah, so. So I had a spreadsheet, you know, not, I know no spreadsheets allowed, but I'm very kinky for spreadsheets. So I would document all these ideas that I had, like, oh, I would like a story about this partner, or I would like a story about this theme, or, you know, this type of event.

Alex: And I would keep that. And then at some point when trying to write about them, sometimes I would get stuck in trying to put that telling of the story in a traditional format. And then one day I was, I had this sort of aha moment where I thought, oh my God, I'm trying to tell this in a monogamous way. Like I'm trying to tell my story.

Alex: In a traditional container, but what if I freed myself of the expectation of the story has to be told in chronological order, in, you know, a traditional narrative format. et cetera. So I don't know if that answers your question, but I started observing polyamory and observing life with a creative lens as well.

Alex: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: So would you say that you are. Poly genres.

Alex: Yes.

Daniel: One of the other things, , that I noticed, , you know, speaking about the, the play, , chapter, , essay, , is a bravery in not ending things well. I mean, not ending things happily that you no longer have to feel like you have to present polyamory as something that has like happy endings because sometimes there's instances that are just as tragic as anybody else's life, was that conscious for you as you went about writing the book?

Daniel: So it definitely

Alex: caused me very complex feelings because basically I was in the middle of writing the book, or maybe I was close to done when Ally and Dawn and I broke up, and Ally was initially my meta more.

Alex: But then we had been talking about merging our lives together and she was spending half hard time upstate with us, and she and I were kind of trying to figure out what our life partnership would look like. And in my head, the book would have this happy ending with like all of us, you know, happy in our relationship.

Alex: And then like fairly late in the process. Then breakup occurred and Allie kind of pulled out of both of our lives like Dawn on me, and we're on very good terms. Like We've transitioned to a really nice friendship. But then I, it really made me sad for myself and at the same time, sad for the book.

Mm-hmm.

Alex: And I thought, oh, but I'm trying to tell people this can work. And, and one of the things I also saw was missing in stories and books I felt like I saw a lot of the beginning parts Yes. Of people's journeys in polyamory most of the time, as you pointed out, , Nicole, you know, monogamous, couple opening up.

Alex: But I was like, I wanna see more later in the process. Mm-hmm. But then eventually I got exactly where you're talking about Danielle, which is, well, that's life. Mm-hmm. And yes, some people will look at it and be, well, the reason it didn't work out is because it's polyamory. But if you read the book, you realize that that's not what it is.

Alex: Mm-hmm. And, and also I feel like there's a, a real lack of visibility and , just. Care around heartbreak and polyamory. Mm-hmm. I think a lot of people will think, well, you still have a partner. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, why are you so heartbroken?

Daniel: It's like if you had a, family member die, you know, and you're like, well, you still got a bunch of them.

Daniel: That's not, it's not great folks.

Alex: Yeah. So then I kind of lean into that. I thought, well, showing what heartbreak looks like, especially when you envisioned a certain future with someone and for your life and for my book. I'm not happy we broke up for the ending of the book, but it is interesting that it's like the book starts with questions and ends with questions in a way, like actually, the books ends with literal questions.

Alex: Yeah. , Because I didn't know how to end it. I was like, how do I wrap up this narrative? And we're so, you know, you watch movies and often it's, wrapped up in a bow. Like, here's the meaning of everything. And for me, it was like, well, here are the questions I ask myself these days and the questions that people ask me, because life is messy.

Alex: , But for the Thanksgiving essay, it's called, coming out Polyamorous on Thanksgiving, it's basically, , Dawn grew up in the south and his parents were visiting us in New York City and meeting Allie for the first time. And we had just come out as polyamorous to them and me as queer bisexual.

Alex: So it's kind of like first dinner, first time everyone is together. And then, you know, tensions and drama ensues. That one was very easy because it was just like, well, that's what happened. Like I am, some people in writing workshops had asked me like, can we know, like.

Alex: Are you now talking to them? Like, what's that relationship like now? And I was like, I kind of just wanna end it there, because like, that's what it might be like for people.

Mm-hmm.

Laurel: Speaking of that, , story you made a short film out of that, right.

Alex: sure. It's gonna come out online in November around, you know, Thanksgiving. 'cause that's when it happened, which, you know. It's a holiday that has like a heaviness around family, I think, think a lot. Mm-hmm. Like many holidays do. and because I wrote it as kind of a screenplay , I was curious to see it as a short, , and that's also the essay that most readers would tell me about when they would come to events.

Alex: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They would say, oh my God, I was on the edge of my seat and like that essay, blah, blah, blah. So I thought it would just be a fun, a fun one to try to adapt first. And I've never done anything like that. But I have a friend, Brook Hanney, who's an intimacy coordinator, , in the industry who kind of put me in touch with people.

Alex: And it was, it's been mind blowing just how much people have come together to make this film. I got a grant from the Polyamory Foundation to help fund the film. I raised some money on Indiegogo and I got also another arts grant from a local organization and was able to kind of put it together and now it's gonna play at a few festivals before it comes out in November. I love that people are

Daniel: Like. Kind of reading it as a thriller on the edge of my seat. There's, there's no greater threat or antagonist than a conservative mother from the south at your polyamory dinner party.

Daniel: I hope that you left in a lot of the silences. I hope, I hope that, I hope that the short film has lots of awkward silences. God,

Alex: it does. We actually made it like there's no music at all during dinner. Like there's nothing but the dinner so that it could have that feeling. And because in the book, the essay lives, you know, among other stories.

Alex: Mm-hmm. For the film to work as a standalone, we wanted to at least add a bit more context around who are Allie, Dawn and Alex and obviously the film is very difficult and emotional, but we, we bookended it with joy. Mm-hmm. So it starts with the three of them getting dinner ready before the parents arrive.

Alex: And so you can also see their dynamic that they have together and you get a bit of background and then after the parents leave, you have also the three of them kind of taking a moment to just feel together what just happened. Mm-hmm. And it does end with joy also, like that's another thing that was really important to me in this film, so much that is shown about polyamory.

Alex: The plot points and the tensions have to do with polyamory itself, meaning inside the relationships. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it'll be jealousy, struggles, , maybe not being fully sure that this is for you. And here the tension is outside of the happy polyamory, which is still real. Obstacles to deal with, but at least it's like you can see that these three people are kind of solid in their relationship and in who they are and what they want their lives to be.

Nichole: I am so excited And again, I feel like you wrote this for me because I came out to my mother right before Thanksgiving because Laurel was going to be at Thanksgiving dinner.

Nichole: Can we also talk about, . Metamours.

Laurel: Mm.

Nichole: Because you have also captured exactly how I feel for Laurel and I have expressed several times on this podcast, like, I love Laurel in a way that I don't love anybody else. I see how happy she makes Daniel.

Nichole: And, , also just like transparency. I love having the validation of like, things like shit that Daniel does. But also there's just, there's just a, there's a special bond between us. I mean, I don't know if you feel the same world, but like, I mean, it's fine, whatever.

Nichole: And again, illustrated through story of like, I wanted to send this photo of dawn to Bridget. Mm-hmm. You know, because Bridget would understand.

Laurel: It is also one of my favorite parts about polyamory. Like, I love Nicole dearly, it is a valued relationship. I have other metamours and X-Men mores that I have close or like unique and interesting

Laurel: relationships with.

Laurel: and I just want you to gush about Metamours for a little while.

Alex: Well, first of all, I'm so glad that you two felt. That this part was in the book and that you kind of needed to hear it. Because I sometimes describe my book as just a love letter to Metamours just in general, you know?

Alex: I had no idea that Metamours would be my favorite part of polyamory. Mm-hmm. Or at least mm-hmm. Something to look forward to. There's so much emphasis on, okay, here's how to manage your jealousy. And those things are very real. but for me, it just became so revolutionary to be able to share this type of romantic intimacy that you have with someone. with someone else, basically someone else who knows this type of intimacy, even though they have their own version of it. But kind of like you were saying, sending photos or being like, oh, when Daniel does this, blah, blah, blah, and, , and also for me, It's almost like metamours and polyamory became this sort of highway to a bigger family that you can also rely on. , It started feeling really sad to imagine, you know, Dawn dying, which I do very often to imagine him dying without having a metamor with me.

Mm. Um,

Alex: And I, I reflect on that in the book. There's no good word. It's like, it's not just a friend. There's friendship, intimacy, , trust, a closeness. Again, I know not every pair of Metamours has that type of relationship, but I do think a lot of people do, and more people might, if they saw more stories like it the same way you grew up and you're like, oh, I dream of my wedding, or mm-hmm.

Alex: Mm-hmm. I dream of a MeetQ to then it's like, if we have more Metamore stories, then people might be, oh, I dream of finding, you know, a metamore to do this with.

Laurel: Yes.

Daniel: So what you're saying is we need more meta fiction.

Laurel: Daniel. Daniel. Daniel.

Alex: That's

Daniel: my next project.

Alex: Woo.

Laurel: Wait, really?

Alex: My next project is a Metamore Romcom,

Laurel: so hell yeah. Watch out.

Nichole (2): Alex, where's the best place to get your book? ?

Alex: So the best place for me is if you go to my website, alex alberto.com 'cause that's where I get the most. if you wanna order it@bookshop.org, , for convenience of online whatever they give back to bookstores.

Alex: It's also on all the places like Amazon and whatever. You can ask your local indie bookstore if they wanna carry it. And , the audiobook version is also available where audiobooks are available, but you can also buy it direct from me on my website. Perfect.

Laurel: I noticed, , that you do some like writing workshops and stuff like that.

Laurel: , Do you have any coming up stuff on the horizon?

Alex: I don't have one coming up right now. I just wrapped up a writer's retreat. So I host writing retreats in upstate New York and Hudson, and they have lots of different themes. And I have hosted a Zoom class on writing non-monogamy.

Alex: , . That class was so special. The point was to just tell your story, even if it's for yourself or even if it's for your loved ones.

Alex: And even just the communal aspect and this feeling that you're describing of reading my book and feel feeling seen, I think it just created that among everyone. Mm. First of all, most of these people , just had never been in a room with only polyamorous people.

Alex: Mm-hmm. Or non-monogamous people. Mm-hmm.

Nichole: I experienced this when we went to go see Sam Kat. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Give the reading at, at Shebob. , it was , the first time that I was in a room of people who were there for a topic or exploration of polyamory that weren't there to hook up with each other.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Alex, you're not saying that we can't hook up at your writing retreats, right? Oh my God.

Alex: Look, if people hit it off and start talking offline in a consensual way, then, you know, that's great, but it won't happen in my zoom room.

Daniel: Zoom sex is the worst possible form of sex. I mean, even as far as all the remote forms of sex, right? You, you think zoom sex is the worst. I would rather have an erotic phone call. I would rather sext and send pictures It has to do with trying to maintain eye contact, but also, oh God, yeah.

Daniel: Where

Nichole: do you look?

Daniel: Yeah, like I'm just looking at myself the

Nichole: whole time.

Laurel: All right. We'll have to explore this topic that's more thoroughly.

Daniel: Alex, if you ever had Zoom sex, this is not a proposition here. I have. Okay, good.

Alex: No, I have not, I'm pretty sure I had like Skype sex back in the day. Yeah. Oh my God.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: I feel like we did that Daniel, when I was in San Diego.

Daniel: And this is just a testament to the power of our relationship that it survived this. Yeah.

Nichole: And that it was long enough ago that Skype was still around. Yeah.

Laurel: Wow.

Nichole: I'm just really happy that we got to have this conversation. Yeah. Like Alex, just, yeah. Thank you

Alex: so much for having me. .

Laurel: Thank you so much. Really appreciate you making the time and digging the microphone out. And the, oh my God. Yeah. The constellation coming together to find the microphone.

Alex: It was, yeah. It was quite something.

Daniel: This is primarily., Like, The functional role of my molecule in my life is, is

Nichole: to find shit. Yeah, exactly. Actually, yes. It is the number one question that we have, um, , that we receive from Daniel. It's like, where's my wallet? Yeah. Where's, where did I put the Exacto knife? That was the, that was the poly yesterday is trying to find an exacto knife and making sure it wasn't on the floor anywhere to be stepped on.

Nichole: Oh

Alex: my goodness. Yeah. That's amazing.

Daniel: The, the D in my A DHD stands for danger.

Alex: But anyway, thank y'all for your podcasts. It's also a pretty unique one in the, landscape of podcasts about polyamory. So it's really fun.

Laurel: I'm, I'm glad you enjoyed. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Thanks.

Daniel: We, like , to build in prohibition of anybody trying to imitate us by just being a complete shit show now. Why would you want this?



Laurel: Everyone go buy their book. It's amazing. And I'm super excited for the film to come out.

Daniel: You got me too. And go out there, take a little inspiration and tell some Polly stories.

Laurel: Yeah, yeah,

Daniel: yeah. Let 'em all know that we're human beings here.

Daniel: there are onion skins in our grocery bags. Just like real people.

Laurel: Speaking of real people.

Daniel: That is absolutely what unicorn hunters are not looking for.

Nichole: So you're saying we have a unicorn hunter Hunters.

Laurel: unicorn hunter hunters is the segment where we review real life dating profiles from unicorn hunters and rate them on three categories.

Daniel: Self-aggrandizement, arbitrary rules and would we unicorn for them? I like that we divvied up those qualities in that particular way.

Daniel: I just feel like I'm self aggrandizement.

Daniel: Nicole is arbitrary rules so rude. And Laurel is. Maybe I'll sleep with them.

Daniel: Yeah, that feels right actually.

Daniel: All right, am gonna read this in the voice that I imagine

Daniel: In a long distance relationship. So currently looking for a woman to take my partner out on girl girl dates with no expectations. What if things progress past that and everyone is comfortable, then great play with her solo until I get into town again.

Builds

Daniel: anticipation for my next visit when I go up to visit.

Daniel: We are always open to meeting up with couples or single females.

Daniel: Myself, Husky, moderately attractive male.

Daniel: 36-year-old, straight male. Okay. Currently in the redacted area and going up to visit her in redacted one to two times a month. Her very attractive fit female. 31-year-old, bi female. Moved to redacted a few months ago. Loves to play with females when I'm not around.

Daniel: Oh God. Not interested in meeting up with couples by herself, but Will during my visits. Looking for a single woman or couples to have fun with in the redacted area. Privacy is important to us, which is the reason for the somewhat boring pictures, but can provide better ones once trust and rapport is built.

Nichole: So he is looking for women exclusively to take out his girlfriend when he's not around. When he's not around, but then also once he gets there to put on a show for him, basically like building anticipation. Mm-hmm. For hi for the cock to enter the room. Basically

Daniel: he's looking for a fluffer.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah. I mean, a while ago, remember we had that stunt dick guy, the guy who was looking for a substitute dick?

Laurel: Yeah, yeah. To just

Daniel: jump in. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When he was out of the room. Yeah. This is kind of like that, but it's like you can't even have a dick.

Nichole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's for him. Yes.

Nichole: Like you take my woman out and you give her pleasure in service of my pleasure. Yeah.

Daniel: Keep her warm for me. Oh,

Daniel: so his partner's profile mm-hmm. Is not especially exciting, but I think it's worth reading just for the, one of these things is not like the other. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Love those. Do these people even know each other? Yeah. Yes. Partner and I are looking to meet either a single woman or couple to have some fun with.

Daniel: Also looking to fulfill a fantasy of watching my partner with a woman and then taking my turn with her seeking unicorn emoji, willing to have us both, or a couple with a partner who wants to watch

Nichole: she says nothing about, Hey, I would like a woman to take me out because my partner does not live here,

Daniel: I don't know if she's read his profile or he has read hers.

Nichole: I mean, his is incredibly prescriptive on what they're looking for Hers must have been written when they lived in the same town.

Daniel: Right. She's gonna be so shocked when this woman shows up at the door and she's like, I didn't order these pizzas.

Laurel: Yeah, pizzas, bean boobies.

Daniel: That's, that's poly amateur hour slang for tits. Well look at those pizzas.

Laurel: Now I'm getting hungry. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're totally right, like she never bothered to update her profile. Yeah. 'cause she doesn't actually care.

Nichole: But this is the thing is that like, would be coordinating Oh yeah.

Nichole: I hate it, but, but they would be contacting him. Yeah. If they come across her profile,

Nichole: likelihood of like, miscommunication is so high.

Daniel: Mis solicitation.

Nichole: Yes. I like, that's the title that I won.

Laurel: I absolutely hate the idea of someone trying to solicit partners for somebody else on apps.

Nichole: they would be vetted by him. Like she, it doesn't Exactly, yeah. . It doesn't feel like she has much of a choice of like, who these people would be.

Daniel: And there is literally no description of who, besides this person being female

Laurel: There's no way in hell. That I'm ever seeking out a woman via her male partner, God no.

Daniel: Yeah. Like I need the male gaze in order to fucking choose my partner. Yeah,

Laurel: yeah, yeah. I refuse for the sake of my people to believe that there are queer women

Laurel: who want that. Are we talking about Jews? Yeah. For the sake of the Jews.

Nichole: you all look so tormented. I just, I don't trust him to be organized enough to like do this. Like, that's also what makes me mad. Like as a logistics organized person who plans things I do not trust this bro.

Nichole: To be able to like exchange phone numbers and coordinate a time to meet, like, fuck that. No, no, no, no.

Laurel: The, is this like, yeah, the epitome of unnecessary middle management or like Yes. In incompetent middle management. Like we've all had that manager that is just like fucking useless and all they do is Yeah, like miscommunicate things and you're like, this would be better for everybody if you weren't here.

Nichole: Yes. Yeah,

Daniel: what if that was her original dating profile by which she found him?

Daniel: It's like, I wanna find a unicorn, but first I need a fucking middle management dude. Oh my

Laurel: God. Oh fuck. I need someone to manage my unicorn applications.

Nichole: I mean, she's probably so busy. I actually understand that. Like she just chose the wrong guy. Alright.

Laurel: Alright. We're coming around on it.

Daniel: You guys wanna see some pictures?

Nichole: Yeah. Is there anything to see? Because he describes them as boring photos.

Daniel: Yeah. Maybe boring by his standards and there's no faces. Obviously we're in torso land here.

Daniel: Of course we're visiting Club torso. but may I begin with this? Torso.

Nichole: That is not even a hold. It's just the chest.

Daniel: Yeah,

Nichole: And there is a tattoo, the

Laurel: a partial tattoo that maybe implies some cultural appropriation.

Daniel: Definitely. I did an image search

Laurel: Uhhuh

Daniel: using chat.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: To figure out what his Chinese character tattoo on his chest translated as

Laurel: the only noble use of ai. Yes. Continue

Daniel: And said, look at my pizzas. No,

Laurel: I was like, what?

Daniel: It wasn't really even a sentence. It's like leadership, strength, power executive. I hate it. I

Laurel: hate that. Is this a guy that hate that does martial arts and deeply misunderstands, , like the the ethos. Ethics. Ethos and ethos of it.

Laurel: Ethos? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: It

Daniel: This is. Both of their torsos in a single picture,

Laurel: Is his torso sweaty?

Daniel: Yes.

Laurel: Wow. Yeah. That's so confusing. That's so gross.

Laurel: there's no other context. It looks like you're standing on a street corner in just regular civilian clothes Yeah. . And for some reason man is super sweaty. Is that it?

Daniel: Those are the highlights.

Laurel: Wow. What, He should at least have like a picture, like at his secretary station. Because that's where he's gonna be making the appointments for the date he's in front of his

Daniel: Rolodex

and like

Daniel: has a calendar desk, calendar out.

Daniel: It's like, uh, one of those stock photos the hand in the foreground with like a pencil.

Laurel: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I

Daniel: mean, that might make me swipe right.

Laurel: Yeah. We're, this is a little mini invitation to love we're doing here, actually.

Nichole: So, so how would we rate them?

Laurel: Hmm. Okay. Self-aggrandizement. I mean, he is like, I'm average looking. My lady's super hot though,

Daniel: I feel like it's like we have bodies for sex in Yeah.

Yeah.

Daniel: would you like a hole?

Laurel: Can I offer you a hole in these trying times?

Daniel: I tell you, if I saw a profile where that was the headline,

Laurel: I'd be pretty interested. Oh, yeah. Goes and changes her profile right now.

Nichole: Yeah. I gotta say like a four. Yeah. Four or five. A middling. Yeah.

Daniel: I mean, I'd even go lower. I'm gonna go two.

Laurel: I was thinking four, so I'm just gonna go with my gut on that one. Cool. Yeah, I think the audacity of assuming that this.

Laurel: Logistical enterprise will work in any way Is enough for me to raise it to a four? Yeah. All right. Arbitrary rules. This is a weird one. 'cause his whole setup is one big fat, arbitrary rule. Right? It's an arbitrary, yeah,

Daniel: it's an arbitrary role y.

Laurel: Yes. Yes. It's an arbitrary role. Yes. Yeah. . That you are. Uh, just a warm body. You gotta be a lady. You gotta keep my lady warm while I'm away and you gotta make her horny for me.

Daniel: I'm gonna rate them pretty highly.

Daniel: I've seen a lot of dehumanization in unicorn hunter profiles , but I don't think that I've ever seen one that is quite as flattening as this,

Daniel: so I'm going to go eight.

Nichole: Yeah. I was gonna go seven or eight.

Laurel: I'll go eight. I'll go eight.

Nichole: Uh, I bet I know the answer to this question, Daniel, you're off the table, you don't get to

Daniel: Oh yeah, that's right.

Laurel: Yeah. It's a big

Nichole: no

Laurel: No.

Nichole: this is my theory. They lived in the same town, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She moved away just to get away from him. Yes. And this is his last vest of like trying to control like, like she's, he's just a shitty boyfriend, Uhhuh. And she's like, yeah, sure, we can be still connected, I guess. Oh, it

Laurel: checks out if she's like, was also trying to end it by being like, no, I'm really more interested in women right now.

Daniel: So, so, so he took it as like, I need to go find you a woman.

Laurel: Yes. To give you a warm while I'm

Daniel: away.

Daniel: Ugh. It's like one of those birds that just collects blue things for its mate. Aw. Just goes out there and gets bottle caps. It's way too cute to describe this. Yeah, well until like, there's the human bottle cap, right. That's not great.

Laurel: No. Can we, can we all just agree the human bottle cap? No.

Nichole: Yeah. I, I think we can.

Nichole: Yes.