Nichole: All right. I've got 42 minutes, 42 minutes until I have to go back upstairs and check on the brisket.

Laurel: Look at it. What Are you gonna do to it?

Daniel: She just needs to be with it.

Nichole: I, I just need to encourage it to be delicious.

Daniel: I, um, was at this little party the other day with a bunch of old friends, like high school era friends.

Daniel: Mm-hmm. I didn't necessarily go to high school with all of them. They were the people that, , we would smoke pots in the mi, we would s

Laurel: smoke, smoke pots. You smoke in the pots

Daniel: in, uh, the many different locations. All the little special pot pockets, , between our high schools in northwest Portland. And one of my friends from this era had a new Jewish boyfriend.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: And obviously , just given off the Jewish vibes, Judah through the roof immediately. He had like , the Gilbert Godfried squint, you know, and I mentioned you, Nicole. I said, , oh yeah. So I guess you're not gonna be here for Rosh. My. My sh a wife is making a brisket

Nichole: uhhuh,

Daniel: and I was like, it's the best brisket I ever had.

Nichole: Was he impressed that you had a shiksa wife?

Daniel: You've really taken a lot, a lot of Jewish attributes, and maybe you had them all along , the anxiety, the

Nichole: uhhuh

Daniel: the, the cooking and the seriousness around cooking.

Nichole: I've always had that.

Nichole: That's also a French thing.

Daniel: Anyway, I think , that you're more chewy now than when I met you.

Nichole: Thank you.

Daniel: I mean, you're not a lawyer or a doctor, but you're practically a lawyer or a doctor. You got lawyer, doctor energy.

Laurel: Lawyer doctor. Serious cook.

Laurel: top three ways I describe Nicole.

Nichole: Laurel this morning, Daniel woke me up screaming in my face,

Song: you fucking whore.

Nichole: No, no, no. He screamed. He screamed, I will tear your fucking eyes out. What?

Daniel: It wasn't directed at you the way you introduced that.

Nichole: What He was having a stress dream that somebody was trying to steal our dogs.

Nichole: Dogs.

Nichole: But the intensity I

Laurel: tear your fucking eyes out.

Daniel: Isn't it kind of nice to know that like, if anybody fucking tries to take our dogs, I'll tear their fucking eyes out.

Nichole: It was just so specific.

Nichole: It was so specific.

Laurel: Welcome to Poly Amateur Hour. I'm Nicole.

Daniel: I'm Daniel.

Laurel: And I'm Laurel.

Daniel: And I'll gouge your fucking eyes out.

Daniel: I'm trying to think if there is ever a context where I might say something like that in waking life. Like what would I. How, how would I need to be if someone

Nichole: tries to steal your dogs?

Daniel: I know, but who's gonna try and steal our dogs? Like both of our dogs? I think in the dream they had them in their arms and they were like, no.

Daniel: They were like sneaking out of the house, like, like little burglars, you know, with the like the Hamburglar mask on and little caps.

Laurel: I'm also picturing Darla and Dashel just totally resigned to this kidnapping. . Because they would be a lot to handle.

Nichole: I feel very disconnected from what we're supposed to be doing this episode.

Nichole: what is our agenda?

Daniel: Poly Liberation Worldwide. You'll try and get all of our TSA pre revoked by the end of this episode.

Daniel: I know the three things that we're doing. I don't know what order we're doing them in.

Nichole: Let's do monogamy. Are you okay? Yeah. Let's do it.

Daniel: You just love singing that song.

Daniel: Nicole, would you like to read it in a drunk voice? Oh. It's the appropriate tone for this specific monogamy.

Daniel: Are you okay?

Nichole: Okay.

Daniel: for those of you don't know, and you probably know Nicole is what now? 12

Nichole: years sober. 13. But who's counting?

Daniel: Alright. Channel memory. Memory palace. Find drunk Nicole.

Nichole: All right. I absolutely love being monogamous.

Nichole: When I was in my early teens, I was in a long distance relationship with someone who was always fucking diet cheating on me with randoms online and ended up kissing someone they barely met in person and bragged about it to me as if I would be proud of them. They wouldn't even call me by my name sometimes just by the name of whatever fictional attachment they had diluted themselves into thinking I was what?

Nichole: Yeah. This is so confusing. I was their crutch, an emotional punching bag.

Daniel: Wait, did they call her crutch an emotional punching bag? Hey, what's up Crutch?

Nichole: And it was fucking miserable and I cried so hard the night they told me they kissed another person and broke up with them the morning after the relationship lasted a year and two months.

Nichole: Alright. Looking back on it, I was manipulated into the relationship in the first place and it fucking sucked and made me lose 20 pounds from stress vomit. Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's not, that is not funny. It's not, it's not funny to think about somebody vomiting from stress. I have been there. I have been there.

Nichole: What I am envisioning is just a steady street.

Daniel: it is literally 20 pounds of vomit that they lose in one section. Oh my God.

Nichole: Now I'm with my real man who I've been with for a year and three months planning to marry each other and have kids.

Nichole: Everything non-monogamous, including porn, is off the table by default for both of us, and I wouldn't want it any other way. I probably cry with insecurity every night if my partner was watching other people naked. I don't care what anybody has to say about porn, I fucking hate porn

Nichole: for how damaging it is to children and relationships. And I'm glad we don't have anything to do with it. I'm drunk. I just wanted to say, I love being monogamous and fuck anyone who tries to convince healthy, monogamous people into being okay with your cheating.

Nichole: Fuck you. And you're infidelity, you cheating fucks.

Laurel: That was beautiful.

Daniel: I just feel bad that we have not asked Nicole to do a drunk reading before this. Yeah.

Nichole: Never had the opportunity. Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Daniel: by the way, monogamy, or are you Okay? Is the segment Oh yeah. Where we look at examples of toxic monogamy

Daniel: that one we found on the monogamy subreddit.

Nichole: Oh boy.

Daniel: Where there's a special tag that people use, which is like, , recovery from Non-Monogamous Trauma.

Nichole: What?

Daniel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nichole: Oh my God. Oh my God. A k people with

Laurel: a victim complex.

Nichole: Seriously, this is the kind of shit that's like, it reminds me of Christians who get real mad when people don't say Merry Christmas.

Nichole: Yeah. And it says, say Happy Holidays. Yeah. And they're like, oh my God, how dare you take my Christmas away from me. like, shut the fuck up. There are other things that are way worse happening.

Laurel: I am so confused by this post, one, how old is this person? Because she's referring to her relationship in her early teens.

Laurel: Did she say

Daniel: early

Nichole: teens? No way did she? don't know. I was drunk when I ran. Yes.

Laurel: A long distance relationship in her early teens. And it's clear that the guy she is talking to is just talking to other people online. Like this isn't a relationship.

Song: Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah. No, you were just like having an internet escapade with a stranger for a year and for a year, like for over a year.

Laurel: Oh. Who was clearly just having other internet escapades with other strangers. Because she even goes to mention that like, like he kissed a girl.

Song: Yeah.

Laurel: That he just met in person.

Daniel: it was probably the first girl that he'd ever met in person.

Daniel: He can't deny him that, you know, also, maybe it never happened.

Daniel: Yeah. Maybe this guy never existed.

Nichole: I feel super judgmental, but I guess that's this whole segment. Um,

Daniel: we should make a logo of Nicole's face for monogamy. Are you okay? That we use on like social media things when we are doing a monogamy.

Daniel: Are you okay? it's like the Nicole can't even expression. Yeah,

Nichole: yeah, yeah. Because I can't, because I, this is, this thi I, we've just got

Laurel: like three different versions

Nichole: of it right now. Sorry. Sorry. I just like, it, it gets me into my whole, like, I like, I'm sorry, internet is not real life.

Nichole: No. And that's what gets me like so fucking bummed out about Yeah. Upcoming generations that it's like they didn't like skin their knees outside. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, they weren't called home when the streetlights turn on, their worlds are absolutely like digital. Yeah. And this person like, what, what, what the question I have though now I'm with a real man. Yeah. Are you? Yeah. Are you with a person in real life? It's Chet.

Daniel: It's Chet. Wait, she's having babies with Chet? Yeah. She can get married and have babies with Chet. I thought they, she had babies already.

Nichole: No, no, no, no. She's with a real man and they're planning on getting married, planning on having kids

Daniel: that she's in her late teens.

Laurel: Yeah. I, yeah. Like, okay. One, if you are actually an adult, why are you referring to any relationship in your early teens as any kind of hallmark of anything? Yeah. Especially one that seems internet based.

Daniel: Have either of you ever had a attachment of any kind with somebody that you haven't met? Like have you ever developed any kind of like ongoing relationship, where there was some kind of romantic vibe even though you had not met them?

Laurel (2): never one that was sustained, not meeting.

Laurel (2): Like I never had like a full on relationship with somebody if I didn't meet up with them.

Laurel (2): So like one of my high school partners, we started out online. and then there was another one that was like a little grosser,

Daniel: Which department? Was it meat? Was it produce?

Laurel: um, no, he was my friend's cousin, like older cousin. Oh. Was hanging out with her, saw pictures, got like a IM screen names and started like messaging me. this guy was actually my first kiss. He was 19.

Laurel: I was 14. Whoa. Yeah.

Laurel: and that was like, A thing for a minute, But he was

Nichole: related to somebody. Yeah. He

Laurel: was like, yes, like a friend that I knew. Oh my God.

Nichole: What

Daniel (2): you guys, what, what if the guy that our reddit poster is talking about who kissed a girl that she just kissed a girl that he just met is me? Well, you're not the guy. I'm not the guy, but you're the i the girl.

Daniel (2): You're the kiss, you're the kissy. Oh. And this

Nichole: woman is almost 40 years old about this relationship that she had 20

Daniel: something years ago. Yeah. She's, she's like, living in the burbs now. She's got a gigantic fucking glass of Chablis. Right.

Laurel: Oh my God. She's finally found a real man that she's gonna marry and have kids with.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Wow.

Daniel: His name is Perry, Perry Menopause.

Nichole: Oh boy. Oh my God. Do you think it's time for ask the amateurs?

Daniel: Well, you just ask the amateurs if it was time to ask the amateurs. So now I'll ask you. Do you think I should say? Yes. I'm a terrible top. It's time for ask the amateurs. today. A beloved long-term known Stu writes in via our anonymous form, strangely enough. Then why are you calling them out? some fucking stranger writes in to us.

Daniel: To what extent do you think relational enmeshment is at odds with the practice of non-monogamy? If a person is currently in an enmeshed relationship and they want to increase commitment with a new relationship, what are some key considerations for making that addition a success?

Nichole: Can we define enmeshment?

Laurel: I think of enmeshment as things that tie your, like life choices together. Hmm hmm. Like financial. Enmeshment is like sharing finances on some degree.

Laurel: or like nesting, enmeshment can just be just living together or like owning property together. Or like child rearing, enmeshment,

Nichole: I think also all of those things are on the traditional, like relationship escalator. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So things that in larger monogamous culture, you would say is like a step in the commitment. Yes. Yeah. That two people have with each other. Okay.

Daniel: So by that definition of enmeshment, me and you, Nicole, had a significantly enmeshed.

Daniel: Relationship. Now if I keep saying enmeshment, I think it's gonna mesh. Mesh in your mouth. Yeah. She's gonna stop sounding like a word at all. We were enmeshed from the moment we mesh. Uh, we were significantly enmeshed when I met Laurel.

Daniel: Mm-hmm. The first question is to what extent do you think relational enmeshment is at odds with the practice of non-monogamy?

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: I think we can say it's not,

Nichole: it's not because we still live in like a capitalist culture and combining property and finances and assets is just like a part of everyday life in capitalism. We just don't have any social safety net. So like that's, yeah. That's just what it is.

Laurel: Yeah. I don't think that it's at odds with like polyamory as a practice. I think that our current. legal system and capitalism is at odds with polyamory. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because in a different kind of social paradigm, like you could extend these kind of enmeshment to multiple people.

Nichole: Especially if you, put it within the frame of like sharing resources. Right? Yeah. You know, and like expanding. Yeah. you mutual aid. Yeah. Basically like that would be quite in line with polyamory.

Daniel: There was a second part of the question.

Daniel: Okay. What's

Nichole: the second part of the question?

Daniel: If a person is currently in an enmeshed relationship and they want to increase commitment with a new relationship, what are some key considerations for making that addition a success?

Nichole: I don't know that, that's a question for you.

Nichole: And I, I think that's a question for you and Laurel.

Nichole: I wouldn't put the pressure of a successful relationship on a meta,

Daniel: I guess we're just way too enmeshed.

Daniel: Me.

Nichole: I mean, am I wrong? I feel like it wasn't,

Laurel: I don't know, there's always this like, precarious balance because like, there are certainly ways in which. you can and do affect like the success of your partner's other relationships, in the context of your current relationship.

Laurel: you could have a lot of rules. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That like impact how I could relate to Daniel and in turn, Daniel's compliance or noncompliance with those rules would also determine his relationship with you. unless there's some mutual understanding that we are all on the same page about certain like rules or boundaries or whatever, like then something's gonna fail.

Laurel: It's like an ecosystem.

Laurel: everyone, like within an ecosystem or every like living thing within an ecosystem has the like responsibility to be itself and like Yes. And the ecosystem doesn't work if like it falls out of balance.

Laurel: Right. a lot of things can like trigger Yeah. That dissolution or like failure of an ecosystem like this scenario of having a me an enmeshed and enmeshed in re the scenario of having an en Wow.

Daniel: See, it's hard. We have another word. Word for it.

Daniel: It's really hard. I think you should just lean, you just lean into the, the, uh, the enmeshment. Enmeshment, yeah. Just don't try and say it right. Say it. Laurel,

Laurel: the scenario of having an immersed relationship and like successfully holding that relationship in regard mm-hmm. And committing to it while simultaneously, escalating or, deepening commitment in another relationship.

Laurel: that is something that like all of us play a part in. And it's not like, it's not like the responsibility is on anyone individual that situation. It is dependent on us all having some kind of like symbiotic interaction.

Daniel: We are three spiders that share a web.

Laurel: Are there any spiders that share a web?

Nichole: Please write to us. We need this for our new segment. Yeah. That I've already forgotten the name of. Yeah.

Daniel: like the role of the meta for me is like top of mind right now, Laurel, because like, you've been dating somebody new and you're like coming out of a relationship that was, , it was real big trauma for me and I'm talking to my therapist a lot about it.

Daniel: Oh

Nichole: God. Are you really?

Nichole: no. He doesn't have a therapist.

Laurel: You're talking to our therapist a lot about it. Yeah,

Daniel: that's true. And we're enmeshed. We have a, we share a, we share a therapist, and I find myself like navigating my own emotions about like, being wary of the kind of enmeshment like that you've had with some partners before. And like also really wanting to honor and be like open to a new enmeshment,

Daniel: so this is top of mind for me.

Laurel: what are you coming up with?

Daniel: you know, stay aware of,

Laurel: I thought you were just gonna say stay away,

Daniel: stay aware of like the differentiation between like, what I feel as just like natural jealousy and insecurity that's always with me. Mm-hmm. You know? and what I feel as concern,

Daniel: you know, coming at my own emotions from like a meditative standpoint where I'm always at least like a step back and able to put them in the larger context of like observation.

Nichole: I wanna say it's a good start, but I'm not in your relationship.

Laurel: I think so. like we were noticing at the top of this conversation that a lot of the like symbols of enmeshment are just like plateaus on the relationship escalator.

Laurel: Yeah. And so we associate a lot of, depth of a relationship with those markers. and because of our legal system and capitalism, all that kind of stuff, a lot of them are meant to be exclusive markers. Yes. Yes. and so I think just by. Being nurtured by that kind of ideology. like we just get scared when something seems to be threatening, our ability to be exclusively enmeshed with our partner..

Laurel: Yeah. yeah, like having that kind of weariness of like, as a meta in this situation to my partner's other partner, like, what is just like shit I need to unpack, like societally or like, personally to not let that get in the way of my partner's ability to pursue that kind of like connection or enmeshment with another person.

Nichole: I feel like I've made like a total 180 from the beginning of this conversation.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: When I said it was not my responsibility to make sure that your further commitment with Laurel was a success.

Daniel: because obviously we're not gonna be able to do it ourselves.

Daniel: And so now you've gotta take the mask.

Nichole: No, but it, like, I guess I can speak a little bit to like being the person who is legally committed to you, Daniel

Song: Uhhuh.

Nichole (2): And What you guys are planning, like potentially for a wedding it's a little bit more

Nichole (2): traditional . There there are moments when I feel a little, you know, when I feel a little jealous, when I feel a little like insecure about it.

Nichole (2): Yeah. When I'm in those moments, I feel like Daniel would go, oh, are you jealous?

Nichole (2): And like, you know, I would not say it like Jesus

Daniel: Christ,

Nichole: I'm just saying

Nichole: We had our friend marry us and

Daniel: we're gonna have Zoe marry us.

Nichole: Great. So it'll be, it'll,

Daniel: it'll be repeat after me

Laurel: yeah, one Daniel, stop being such a dick.

Laurel: I like, actually I'm just having like a lot of ideas about how we like talk about jealousy in our relationships because It's hard to talk about because as a poly person, you feel like you're being bad. You're not doing, doing it right. You're not

Daniel: doing it right.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. And it also, like, if you're just being honest about it and saying like, owning the jealousy coming from within you, it's like really presenting insecurity.

Laurel: Yeah. So it was very vulnerable. Yeah. It's very like, yeah. Look at my tenderest bits. Hey, that's my shirt.

Nichole: I think you're right in that being vulnerable and, , discussing or recognizing insecurities or jealousies when they come up. , But also understanding that relationships are dynamic. Yes. And so those needs on each side of the V like What commitment means can change. Yes. Yeah. , And , that's what any successful relationship is. Yeah.

Daniel: You know, Nicole, you often say on this podcast that one of the most important parts of polyamory for you, and one of the things that you've learned from it is that it has allowed you to really come into yourself as an autonomous person. Mm-hmm. And just really see your own autonomy. And I feel like that's a theme in a lot of the aspects that we're discussing.

Daniel: Mm

Laurel: mm-hmm.

Daniel: Right? Is that the more. You can one, be secure within yourself and feel safe in your own skin. One the less you're going to be, comparatively jealous

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Of other entanglements in measurements. And two, the more you are like aware, like about that boundary. And I don't mean the kind of boundary that you put down, but I mean like the, the, um, what do they call the edge of the black hole?

Daniel: Uh, the,

Nichole: uh, the event horizon. Yeah.

Daniel: It's the, the event. We don't need eyes where we're going. I'm gonna gouche God

Daniel: like the event horizon of the self, right? Where there's , feeling secure as your own kind of stellar body. I'm getting trippy. , And I think that, I think that all also helps you stay aware of possible unhealthy ways in which you could pursue in mesh that would be like codependency, right?

Daniel: Like the more you are self-sufficient autonomous, the more you feel secure in yourself, it's gonna prevent you from being jealous and it's gonna prevent you from sliding into codependent patterns. And, it is the most fun way to exist a party.

Nichole: I do think in my, like, you know, late sixties, fourth career, when I decide that I'm gonna be an internet personality and an influencer, I'm going to host.

Nichole: Online and in-person workshops called the Event Horizon of the Self. And I'm going to talk about the interstellar autonomy. I'm gonna use a lot of word salad. People will pay so much money for that bullshit. I'm into it. You're

Daniel: stealing my intellectual property right now. This is not fair.

Nichole: Actually, I was gonna ask if you could maybe just erase this just in case I do decide to like do this.

Nichole: I don't want it recorded for posterity so people don't know that I'm scamming them. I think we answered the question.

Daniel: I think so.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah, we fixed everybody.

Laurel: Good job.

Daniel: You know who else is gonna fix everybody? Who, oh, our favorite nonprofit. ' cause it's the one kind of about us.

Daniel: Open the organization for polyamory and. Ethical, non-monogamy. You gotta say it all as one quick thing. Nice. Nice open because it's not open. Open.

Daniel: These are the people doing all like the important legislative work to actually make sure that the rights of non-traditional. Families are respected in at least our liberal bastions and protected. Yeah.

Daniel: And today we are gonna take a slightly more serious turn by having a representative, on from open to talk about real subjects.

Multiple: for our segment practical poll.

Daniel: Real subjects. John Billingsley started it. He came on this pod turned us radical. He radicalized us.

Laurel: Oh yeah.

Laurel: Yeah. That does check out. , Yeah, I mean, it's not just like a representative. It is the founder of Open

Laurel: Brett Chamberlain, charismatic white male cult leader,

Daniel: Brett. We're not trying to speak ill of you by calling you a cult leader. We're just trying to like vision board something fantastic for you.

Laurel: I'm saying it 'cause it's just how much I bought in when talking to Brett.

Nichole: Oh, he got me hook, hook, line and sinker, which also sounds like he was manipulating me.

Nichole: No, our conversation was rich.

Daniel: And we don't mean rich.

Nichole: No, it was rich. It was informative, it was inspiring. Yes. I am very activated right now. 'cause I'm just like, yeah, get me in there, coach. Yeah.

Daniel: I mean, there's nothing that floods your basement more than somebody like reading the entirety of long URLs with the, with the slashes and dashes.

Daniel: Nicole loves so people know

Laurel: exactly where to go.

Daniel: Yeah,

Laurel: it is. It is convenient.

Laurel: without edging you further. Let's blow your load.

Laurel: Jesus.

Daniel: Wow. Daniel was offended by that. I'm trying to make a good impression for the non profiteers.

Nichole: Roll tape, I guess. Roll tape.

Nichole: . Thank you so much for joining us today.

Brett: Hi. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Daniel: Now, I warned Brett so much about how chaotic we were going to be and how it was gonna be just a complete shit show and we'd be interrupting and you come out of the gate with like, thank you for joining us.

Nichole: I'm coming off of work. It's fine. It's just who I am. So far

Brett: so good.

Laurel: Brett, if you wouldn't mind just like introducing yourself real quick.

Brett: My name is Brett Chamberlain. My pronouns are he, him, and I am the founder and executive director of Open the Organization for Polyamory and Ethical Domy. We are a grassroots advocacy nonprofit, working to advance rights and acceptance for non-monogamous families and relationships of all varieties.

Laurel: Wow. You sound so practiced in that. I really do. You've got it like down pat.

Brett: It's probably like the 10000th at the time. I have said that. Yeah, I bet.

Laurel: I bet.

Brett: Today.

Laurel: Today. Yeah. I,

Brett: I still mistype, non-monogamy sometimes and every time I do, I feel like a real, can I say dumb ass? Oh yeah. You can say whatever you want.

Nichole: Yeah. Great. I sometimes mispronounce it. I'm not even going to attempt it right now because I know that I'll mispronounce it. It'll just come out wrong.

Brett: Yeah, you've set yourself up for sure.

Laurel: I'm curious, Brett, how you came into polyamory in general and then like how that Brought you to establishing open, like as an organization.

Brett: Yeah, so here's the backstory. I started kind of dipping my toes into like polyamory or open relationships back when I lived on the east coast in New York City in and around like 2015. And I was in a kind of quasi long distance relationship, New York to Massachusetts.

Brett: And we established an agreement that we would be an open relationship, but we never really did the thing that you're supposed to do, which is like, what does that mean to you?

Song: Mm-hmm.

Brett: And as a result, like feelings got hurt. Yeah. There were different understandings of like what that meant. and I think really largely in part, like I didn't have access to non-monogamous communities and resources.

Brett: Like I, I just didn't have that vocabulary or that understanding. When I moved to the Bay Area in 2016, that totally changed and I found myself having just real inside access to some really well-developed non-monogamous and sex positive communities. And that really gave me the opportunity to see how it worked firsthand to see real role modeling, to have access to resources and education and vocabulary.

Brett: Not to say that I did not continue to make mistakes as I'm sure we all do. Uhhuh. Yeah. Like there's the process of just like learning and growing in any type of relationship practice, but I found that experience like really transformative for my life, right? It was access to this really rich, really supportive, really vulnerable community access to people that were practicing relationships as an intentional practice instead of just playing out the sort of inherited social scripts.

Brett: Um, and of course I go to go to a lot of sex parties, like, who doesn't love that? Now I have a background in advocacy and activism. At the time I was working in the nonprofit environmental sector. I was doing a lot of work on like plastic pollution, telling everyone where their recycling really goes, like on the side room of this sex party, right?

Brett: Like people ask like, oh, what do you do after ucom at the orgy? And it's like, you go and like talk about recycling. Yeah. Or Disney songs.

Daniel: Love it. So open grew out of the recycling faction for the orgy, right?

Brett: Exactly. Yes, exactly. There's still a lot of overlap there. You know, in reality though, it, it was having these conversations and first of all, learning that non-monogamy is a really widely practiced identity,

Brett: one in five American adults will be in a non-monogamous relationship at some point in their life. One in 20 adults who are in a relationship. Describe that relationship as non-monogamous, despite how widespread non-monogamy is, as we all unfortunately know, it's still a widely stigmatized identity, you know, stigmatized or, and marginalized kind of at worst and just sort of misunderstood at, at best.

Brett: And I was seeing this even in progressive areas like the Bay Area, right? Which is supposed to be this like open, inclusive, diverse free love sort of space. But I still had friends that were afraid to be open about their relationships mm-hmm for fear of losing their job at a school or a church run hospital system.

Song: Mm-hmm.

Brett: And afraid of having their rental application rejected if the landlord found out that the three of them aren't just roommates.

Song: Mm-hmm.

Brett: And the other thing I learned was that there was not a dedicated national organization, you know, bringing real professional capacity kind of on an ongoing basis to organizing this space.

Brett: Right. And I wanna make clear, there was a lot of incredible individual leaders and volunteer run organizations and organizations that had NoMy as kind of part of their issue portfolio. But there was not a group like Open that could really bring a dedicated focus to this specific issue day after day.

Brett: , And so I started it.

Laurel: Nice. Yeah. Good job. Thank you. Wow.

Daniel: Now, uh, part of the charter right? Is that everybody should be polyamorous and we're going to eventually seize control of the means of production. Right.

Brett: I told you that in confidence. That is our secret mission. Fully automated luxury gay space communism is just over the horizon, but we can't review our, our card too hard.

Brett: We can't show our power levels

Daniel: So did you have background in law yourself Yeah.

Brett: My, my background in law is limited to my time as a mock trial debate competitor in college.

Laurel: Nice. Nice.

Brett: Um, you know, my pathway into activism was a lot more of, you know, youth organizing, youth mobilization, like, you know, chasing recruiters, you know, military recruiters out of our high school.

Brett: Mm-hmm. I was, you know, front and center at Occupy Wall Street, which was going on during my time in college in New York City. so I, you know, I bring a little bit more of the like, sort of organizing strategy, movement building grassroots mobilization to the space. We had the privilege of working with some like incredible legal minds, particularly our, you know, partners and allies at the Polyamory Legal Advocacy Coalition, which is a nonprofit volunteer based coalition of, of legal experts.

Brett: They include really, really incredible advocates and lawyers like Diana Adams from the Chosen Family Law Center, Alexander Chen, who's the founding director of the Harvard Law School lgbtq plus Legal Advocacy Clinic. So we've had a, a really great opportunity to work closely with them. They've drafted the model legislation for the non-discrimination protections that we work to get passed in Berkeley and Oakland.

Brett: So I think it really speaks to the way in which this like movement space is maturing, that you have different groups and organizations and professionals that can play different roles because not only is it a broad population. There's also a broad range of issues impacting us from cultural acceptance to, uh, obviously legal rights and protections to the types of conversations that people might have with a healthcare provider or a mental healthcare provider that isn't kind of in the loop on what a monogamy is or isn't.

Brett: So there's a lot of work to be done and activist speaks. It's like a lot of different points of intervention, but opens lane in that really is about like base building, movement building and kind of weaving a movement network of people that can bring those skills to the fore around a dedicated, kind of consistent national strategy.

Nichole: And I think that that is the strength of this kind of organization, this kind of leadership, right, is like recognizing where you do need other people to lean in, where you need, different kinds of skill sets and strengths to just like bolster your, cause. And so just thank you for not taking on everything.

Nichole: Um, I think it's too much for one person to do.

Brett: It's a lot. Yeah. You, you know, I think we have like a, a highly individualistic culture in the west and in the US in particular. And obviously like that is foundational in many ways to monogamy in particular, like sort of toxic monogamy.

Nichole: Yes.

Brett: And so there's something really, really wonderful about like organizing in the non-monogamy space because so many of the values and skills of non-monogamy, right?

Brett: Cooperation, compassion, collaboration, community connection, communication, like bringing those skills to bear. On organizing itself is incredible because like, those are all things that should be part of organizing. Yes. But often organizing is happening within the framework of like our competitive, like capitalist economy.

Brett: Right. So people are like territorial about their donors and like mm-hmm. Don't wanna play nice with others. Yes. And it's been really rewarding to see the way in which this movement has been like the, the values of non monogamy, like really authentically are baked right into it.

Laurel: I'm curious about that in the broader context of like our political climate in America right now. Mm-hmm. And I think it was like your survey that I took recently, asking like, what kind of issues should we be focusing on right now? And, I think with a particular like bent and light shining on like the trans community.

Laurel: but just curious, um, your take because, and I'm asking because I feel a certain level of self-consciousness about it, of like what it means to work on this kind of issue for non-traditional family structures in an increasingly like fascist climate where you could say things like, well, X, Y and Z is more important right now.

Brett: that's a great question and it's one that I've, I've certainly wrestled with. But before I answer that, when you refer to our community survey, you must mean our annual community survey that folks can take now until October 7th. That open love.org/survey, right?

Laurel: Yes. That's the one.

Brett: That's the one at open love.org/survey closing October 17th.

Brett: That's great. I'm glad you get the chance to take that. But in all seriousness, um. You know, I really see open as, having like three interlocking, , objectives, right? So the first and this kind of surface level is advancing rights and acceptance for nonmonogamous families and relationships, right?

Brett: Like it's right there in our mission. It is a worthy goal, right? Like nobody should experience stigma or discrimination or marginalization. It's important, you know, you don't have to be the most marginalized or oppressed group to deserve advocacy on your behalf. And at the same time, as you correctly note the challenges, the threats being faced by varied other marginalized groups, in particular in this moment, trans individuals and immigrants, is just a order of magnitude different.

Brett: And so the second objective for open is to really mobilize the non-monogamous population as a new constituency that can show up and take action on. They can really lock arms with those, those intersecting movements, right? People tend to mobilize around like the identities or issues that are most important to them.

Brett: So if we can activate them on the basis of the non-monogamous community and through their non-monogamous, you know, communities and relationships and spheres of influence, if you will, we can steer that action and that energy and that people power towards the other. Important issues of our time. And then finally the third and the like, kind of longitudinal utopian vision.

Brett: Like, I mean, look like honestly low key. It is fully automated. Luxury, gay space, communism need to put it in like s slightly softer terms. It's really about moving us from a competitive, fundamentally competitive paradigm and back towards a more cooperative, more community oriented one, right?

Brett: Like human beings, like, I don't wanna wax too poetic, but I will. Um, you know, we are cooperative creatures, right? Mm-hmm. Like we evolved and have always flourished in community and the atomization, the fragmentation of our society into like individual nuclear households or, you know, even individualized kind of consumer units is a modern invention and it's destroying the planet and is completely destroying like us, like our psyche, our spirits as people.

Brett: And so this is not to say that we're gonna turn everyone non-monogamous, but I do think that if we can bring our values and like even to pat ourselves on the back a little bit, like our skills mm-hmm. A little bit more into the fore. I think it can be part of that medicine that our society like really, really, really needs right now.

Daniel: Mm. Mm-hmm. I think that even if you're like, Hey, Okay. Non-monogamous people are not facing the most oppression. We're not having our rights stripped from us.

Laurel: We're not being called terrorists by the president.

Daniel: Yes. But I think that we all should, no matter what group that we're a member of, affix yet to that statement.

Song: Hmm.

Daniel: Because, you know

Song: mm-hmm.

Daniel: Fascist states work their way down a list and we are not that far down the list.

Daniel: And if we don't stand up for immigrants and trans people right now, I think the only reason we're just not that visible. They just forgot about non-monogamous people. Like Yeah. You know, like, it's once there's, you know Right. A couple bloody check marks on their list. Like, here, here they

Laurel: come for us.

Laurel: Right. So if you don't feel galvanized to take care of your immigrant and trans community members, you should feel galvanized. 'cause you might be next. Yeah.

Daniel: It's, it's, uh, the long held Jewish credo. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brett: And, and that is explicitly articulated in Project 2025.

Brett: Yes. Right. Like by now, people are pretty familiar with Project 2025. Basically it's like the blueprint for the second Trump administration or regime as we really should be calling it. And at the center point of Project 2025 are a series of con conservative promises. There's three, maybe four of them. And promise number one is to restore the family as the centerpiece of American life and protect our children.

Brett: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now, of course, when they say family, like they are not talking about our families. They're not talking about like, you know, poly hues. They're talking about straight, like honestly, largely white, monogamous, married couples with their own biological children. so, you know, it's, it's very much on their radar and to an extent, like, yes, the movement is kind of relatively small.

Brett: We're playing particularly at the local level, and their focus is on other groups right now. And that could change. Right. So, you know, I, I worry about getting a letter from the IRS being like, Hey, you know, mm-hmm. This is no longer a valid charitable purpose or, you know, getting docs, whatnot. Like these, these are very real threats that we do have to consider.

Brett: And in the meantime, we have to ensure that we are still showing up for our, our neighbors and our peers and our community members.

Nichole: And the folks who identify in those targeted groups who are also non-monogamous. Mm-hmm. Right. There's always going to be that kind of crossover.

Nichole: Yeah. Like,

Laurel: yeah, definitely. can I lighten things up a little bit? No,

Nichole: no, no. It's not a light time.

Laurel: No, it is certainly not a light time.

Brett: This is staring into the void time. I know.

Laurel: Yeah. But I'm just, I'm curious, what are some of your favorite things about like the organization that you've created and, some like wins or things you wanna brag or talk about?

Brett: That's a great question. I don't know if I've gotten that one before. I, I appreciate the invitation to like, reflect on the positive things because it is very easy to like, you know, stare into the doors uhhuh these days. , But there's a lot to celebrate. There's a lot to be really excited about. , 2024 last year was our third annual community survey. We collected 4,500 responses from 70 different countries. And so that's an incredible data set about the identities and experiences of non-monogamous people as far as I've been able to tell that is the largest data set of non-monogamous kind of identities and experiences ever collected.

Brett: So that really, it, it steers our work, it drives our advocacy by providing like the evidence that we need to bring to, you know, city council members. It helps ensure evidence-based presentations of nom monogamy in the media. And this year we've expanded that survey, which you can take at open love.org/survey until October 17th, by establishing a fellowship with Dr.

Brett: Amy Moores, who is like the leading nom monogamy researcher in the us. She's incredible. We got some support from our friends at Multi ery and, uh, the field app in order to make that, , academic fellowship possible. And so that meant that this is now like a formal academic study, which is gonna be really exciting.

Brett: And we're on pace for kind of passing last year's total. So that's a program I'm really excited about. and then earlier this summer we had a presence at World Pride in dc So this is like the World pride march in a different city, uh, every year. And, open was able to lead a no monogamy contingent.

Brett: two things were really exciting about it. First was that like, I wasn't there, right? Like the organization is now grown large enough that we have like volunteers. And in this case, my team member, our campaign coordinator, David, who I think you both, you all have spoken with. Mm-hmm. Yeah. , Who was able to lead and I was like at a wedding in Tahoe.

Brett: And so that's always really exciting milestone for an organization. But when I saw those pictures, right, like people with polyamory flags and shirts that say love is not limited marching with the US capital in the background. Like those are moments that really feel like we are here, right? Like this is our time, this is our time to claim our seat at the table.

Brett: This is our time to make our voices heard in the conversation. So yeah, that was really powerful to see.

Laurel: That's really exciting. And also I, yeah, I totally get the, like, wow. When your organization is operating without you, like how cool that is.

Laurel: Oh my

Brett: God, it's so good. Right? It's so good. Yeah.

Daniel: The greatest achievement of my nonprofit is my time off, right? Yeah. I mean, honestly, I do for real though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. so, you know, being located here in Portland as we are, we, would love to talk about some of the issues in legislation which is affecting us because, you know, we, we go to the, , the city limits at Beaverton and we actually can't see, there's just a gauzy fog.

Daniel: So we'd love to hear about some of the legislation that you've been working on and at what, stage in the process you're at right now.

Brett: Yeah, so I, I referenced the legislation that was originally drafted by our friends of the Polyamory Legal Advocacy Coalition, uh, and that we got passed in Berkeley and Oakland last spring.

Brett: So what that legislation does is it adds. The phrase family or relationship structure to existing civil rights protection in city code. Right? So right now, like you can't deny somebody housing on the basis of their marital status or, you know, nation of origin or, you know, race or sexual orientation. And now you also cannot deny them, housing, uh, or, you know, city or city supported services or, you know, uh, a service at a business establishment on the basis of their family relationship structure.

Brett: So relationship structure obviously encompasses, you know, non-monogamy, a variety of other relationship practices, asexuality a romantic, , family structure overlaps with non-monogamy, but it also picks up multi-generational households. Mm-hmm.

Song: Um,

Brett: blended families, uh, multi parent households, you know, with, uh, aloe parents that may not be romantically, related.

Brett: so that is the legislation that we're pushing in a range of other cities. We are, , working in Portland, we're working in San Francisco, we're working in a number of other cities across the us , in Portland. We have a commitment from, members of the city council, to bring those protections forward.

Brett: The timeline is hazy. The wheels of government moves slowly. There's, you know, behind the scenes politicking related to like other issues that our bill is just kind of being tacked on with. But we are very optimistic that what we, we will see that, introduced and, and, you know, promptly passed in early 2026, if not in the remaining couple months of, of this year.

Daniel: Wow. What can we do to help? Uh, we can write funny songs.

Brett: that honestly though, that I, that helps. I think there's nothing that when you give, when you give comments at a city council meeting, like I don't think there's anything that says it can't be a song. So we might have to hold you to that.

Laurel: Oh. Oh, okay.

Laurel: Oh, God. All alright. Nicole is delighted and terrified.

Daniel: like each side of your face. It was like the comedy and tragedy mask, Uhhuh.

Nichole: I mean, I'm just like, we gotta keep it clean. You can't like. When you present to, when you present to the city council,

Daniel: you

Nichole: don't

Daniel: tell me to keep it clean.

Daniel: If you want me to keep it clean,

Nichole: but also, also I'm now imagining you are a one man band. You've got the like drum on your back uhhuh, and you have the piano in front. You have little speakers. I got,

Daniel: I got a squeaky rubber chicken. You gotta screw in my armpit. Yes, yes. Yeah,

Nichole: yeah. So yes, get prepared then.

Nichole: Bingo. Yeah.

Brett: Big things are happening here. I'm loving this. The one man band

Daniel: means I'm non-monogamous with all instruments. Yes. Yes.

Brett: So when the bill gets introduced to committee, right, this is the like, let do the whole, like I, you know, I'm just a bill kind of thing. Oh yeah, yeah. Goes to committee, passes out a committee, it goes through a vote in front of the full city council, and then it gets what's called a second reading, which is just like, Hey, let's vote on it again.

Brett: , And then after that, that, like, that is when it is kind of finally adopted. So once that process starts, it's really important that we turn out members of the community to speak in support of this bill. Legislators need to understand that non-monogamous people are a, like real and substantive part of their constituency.

Brett: So often these identities are hidden, right? Like you don't know when you walk down the street if somebody is non-monogamous. I mean, like you might, if they're holding hands with both of their partners or like, you know, there's maybe like a certain look, um, actually I probably shouldn't say that.

Daniel: Kind of most, most people can't tell, but you and me, Brett.

Daniel: We can, we can tell.

Brett: Yep. Oh yeah. I can always tell, um, Jesus, sorry, I distract myself. See, it's happening. You told, you warned me this would happen. You didn't warn this would happen. So at that point it's, we'd really love to encourage people to come on out and, you know, share their story, share their experiences,

Brett: um, so if you visit our website, we do have a landing page for Portland. It's where you can get in touch with us and ensure that you are kind of right at a rock. Once that goes to committee, we'll reach back out. We'll be sharing all the dates, we'll be sharing instructions for how people can come and voice their support.

Brett: And if you don't wanna come and speak in front of the committee or in front of the full council, totally understand this. Opportunities to add your name to a sign-on letter. you know, if you're connected with like, local organizations that might be interested in

Brett: endorsing, So really no matter where you're plugged in,, like there's ways to get involved. the best way to connect with us is to visit open love.org/portland.

Brett: , it's where you can sign up for updates or reach out to us to let us know how you'd like to plug in.

Daniel: I want to thank you on behalf of Nicole one because Nicole is always the one to thank people. Yeah. Generally she's like our resident Thanker.

Daniel: but I know that, you know, she just likes to have the weight taken off her shoulders of asking people about all the ways that people can get ahold of them.

Nichole: I did have a follow up though. Um, are there other cities? 'cause we do have listeners, we've now hit all 50 in all 50 states. Yeah, all 50 states.

Nichole: Couple of different countries.

Daniel: Uh,

Nichole: um,

Daniel: big constituency in Finland

Nichole: apparently. Um, do you have other landing pages for other cities?

Brett: Yes, we do. So Open love.org/san Francisco.

Brett: That's the, uh, other city where kind of things are most substantive. We're actually meeting with, , a council member on Sunday, um, before I head off to Folsom Street Fair and like a weird whiplash moment. Kind of like common in my life. Um, and hopefully don't run into them there. Hopefully do, frankly, actually.

Brett: Yeah, it could be a good opportunity to Glad hand. Um, although I don't know how many hands I wanna shake it. Anyways.

Daniel: You bring a bottle of Purell in one hand. Squirt it. Yeah. And then shake.

Brett: I was at a conference where they had goodie bags and one of the things in the goodie bag was a chatter bait branded hand sanitizer.

Brett: And somebody sees it and is like, I don't really think of hand sanitizer. When I think of chatter bait. I'm like, lowkey do. Um, still when I've been like refilling, it's one of my most prized nice hand sanitizers. , So, so we're, , also in Olympia, Washington.

Brett: Mm-hmm. Um, we've also started building some relationships and groundwork in Michigan and in. Baltimore, which is not a state, but Baltimore is in the state of Maryland.

Laurel: Maryland, yeah.

Brett: Got there. Yeah. Um, so, uh, if you live in any of those states, but honestly, regardless of where you live, like we'd love to support you in plugging in.

Brett: You can visit open love.org/legislative advocacy, all one word, open love slash legislative advocacy. Yes. There's a landing page for everything. , You can sign up there, we'll follow up with you. It's also where you can view our legislative toolkit. So this is like a, a research that kind of walks you through, like how do you actually go about advocating for and passing a local bill.

Brett: Um, you can plug into our monthly, , advocacy huddles, which is just a great opportunity to connect with our organizing team and other organizers around the country. So there's a lot of ways to plug in.

Daniel: You can also sign up for the recycling team. For the orgy,

Brett: exactly. Yeah. This is maybe conversations for another time. But I did actually used to be on the leadership team of the Orgy Dome, , at Burning Man. Oh, nice. Yeah. And so that was roughly one of my work shifts is I had to be the lube fairer, which is where you're kind of just like doing rounds inside the dome with a shower caddy that's like full of baby wipes and condoms and lube and stuff, and just sort of be kind of looking out and like, oh, I think that they're ready for their baby wipes over and offer them the baby wipes.

Brett: It's definitely one of those moments where I'm like, oh, this is like my work shift at Burning Man. Ugh.

Song: Right.

Brett: So yes. Anyways, I have, I have played that role. I have played

Daniel: that role before. That's the only kind of manic pixie that I'm into. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Laurel: The Wipe and Lube Fairy. I love it. Wow. Thank you so much, Brett. our listeners don't know this, but like, you're a handsome, charismatic white man, like leading an organization and I just feel like if we were not in a cult before, we're in a cult now and you are our leader. Um, so thank you for volunteering yourself.

Brett: First of all. I think they probably could tell I'm a handsome, charismatic white man.

Brett: Um, maybe they picked up like one or two of those things and I'll let them decide which, which it was. And deeply humble too. Um, honestly, though, I mean like since you do touch on that point, like I, I, I think it is really important that people that hold privileged identities right now, like are leveraging that privilege for good.

Brett: Right? Yeah. Like we cannot sit back and be comfortable, well. Like an authoritarian fascist state, like is literally disappearing our, our friends and neighbors. So now is the time, like step up, plug in. There is a role for everyone. And if you do wanna get involved with us, one more landing page, open love.org/hello. That is the landing page that has links to all of our social media, um, our community Discord. It's where you can sign up for our email list and it's where you can make a contribution if you feel moved to support this work.

Brett: We're almost entirely community funded at, there are no federal grants for this work. not a lot of corporate sponsorships either. So we really do depend on the generosity of folks that wanna see this movement grow and thrive.

Daniel: Beautiful. I'm, I'm kind of, I'm kind of bummed that like you are this handsome, charismatic white man and, and yet probably not our viable candidate for national office.

Brett: Nice. Yeah, I think that ship sailed long ago. Long ago.

Daniel: I was gonna start like a lube fairy for president

Laurel: campaign

Brett: greasing the wheels of government

Nichole: there. It's there. It's