Nichole: I found out today Elijah Wood is not Jewish.

but he has played Jewish characters

Laurel: like the Hobbit.

Nichole: I, I, he wasn't the Titular Hobbit. He was a

Laurel: hobbit. Do you feel like hobbits are

Daniel: Jewish? I mean, they are homebodies, they're very hairy. I feel like they're pointedly British though,

Laurel: Like, they like to eat and drink and jamboree.

Nichole: Aw,

that's so cute. I found this out because Vin Diesel and Michael Kane are like best friends. Mm-hmm. Right. Uhhuh within like a minute of Michael Kane meeting Vin Diesel, apparently he like put his arm around him and told anyone who would listen. This is my son. 10 years ago they were in this movie called The Last Witch Hunter

Laurel: okay.

Nichole: So I start to watch the trailer. It is a bonkers fucking trailer. And Elijah Wood is in there as a priest. And I was like, isn't he Jewish? And then I Googled it. He is not Jewish. He was raised Catholic. Yeah.

Daniel: I don't think I've ever seen such a red string.

Nicole, look in your eye before.

Nichole: I didn't know, I didn't know that he wasn't Jewish.

Laurel: Are there any Jews that play priests

Daniel: It's too difficult for us to imagine being celibate.

If you wanted to know that Elijah Wood wasn't Jewish. You just should have asked us. Like, I feel like really, I feel like I knew full well that Elijah Wood was not Jewish. Just 'cause he is named Elijah.

Nichole: Oh, a thousand percent.

But the like one Jewish person in my high school class, her last name was Wood.

So I just, I had just assumed,

Daniel: oh yeah, you have, with a sample size of one, you're like, all Jewish people are named wood. I'm

Nichole: really good at taking very little data and extrapolating that into a worldview. I am very good at taking a worldview and finding evidence to support that worldview. My therapist called me RFK the other day, so I

Laurel: was like, yeah,

Daniel: I mean, rude.

This is conspiracy theory. It involves Jews, and yet somehow it is the first one that doesn't end in Jew.

Which is honestly a little bit of an anticlimax for a conspiracy theory.

Nichole: Don't we want all conspiracy theories to end anticlimactically though?

Daniel: It's better anti-climactic than antisemitic.

Nichole: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair,

Daniel: I was just asking the other day talking about, people who do Jew face I feel like John Turturro is like the king of Jew face. For those Yeah, for those just tuning in Jew face is when somebody who is not Jewish plays somebody who is Jewish.

Nichole: Al Pacino.

Daniel: Yes. I was thinking about Al Pacino too. Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: who has played Shylock and that gives you like three or four Yeah. Jew face points, I think.

Laurel: I'm just imagining those games at the fair where, you know, you like squirt water into the clown's mouth and then the little like horses, little jockeys on horses, like move down the racetrack, yeah. I know The

Daniel: second part, the squirting the water in the clown's mouth is news to me, but go on.

Laurel: Well, maybe it's not always a clown's mouth.

I'm wondering where this is going. Well, it's like, like. they're in a race, they're in a Jew face race.

Nichole: Who is John Ro and Al Pacino? Wait, is it? And Elijah Wood. Elijah Wood is

Daniel: losing. Is is this, is this the big one? , Is this like the, the master race?

Laurel: God, Welcome to Poly Amateur Hour. I'm Laurel,

Daniel: I'm canceled. I'm, excuse me, I'm Daniel.

Nichole: I'm Nicole Laurel. Were you having some Reddit drama?

Laurel: So someone made this post ac across like three non-monogamy subs, Okay.

so they started off like sort of in a triad with this couple. And then the relationship with the wife sort of fell off, but they're still friends and they've been all together for three years now. They live in the same house together and the poster and her boyfriend are now having a child together with the blessing of the wife in this situation.

Mm-hmm. Boyfriend slash father of this child. He's out of town and suddenly the wife, the not pregnant. Person in the situation is being rude to the pregnant person in the situation. Being cold toward her and then was going to take her to an ultrasound appointment, but canceled 30 minutes beforehand because she had a work meeting because up, and then said a shitty snarky thing.

Mm-hmm. When the poster asked about it and then

Daniel: shouldn't have caught that baby.

Laurel: And then I guess the poster who has a very avoidant and like people pleas tone throughout this whole post. Okay. Is like, oh, I asked meta, like if anything was wrong. And meta was like, no, why are you always creating drama?

Okay.

And she hasn't told the father of her child this, he's out of town, she doesn't wanna stress him out. Mm-hmm.

Okay. And so she is like, Reddit, what do I do? And every single response is get ready to be a single parent.

Daniel: Whoa, whoa. Right. Why? Because the wife was rude to her.

Laurel: Yes.

Okay. And I made a post. I was like, like. Yeah, it's probably a good idea to like expand your support network.

Mm-hmm. I wouldn't assume that this whole scenario is faded to implode though. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, unpopular opinion for the sub, but you should talk to your memoir who parenthetically is your friend and someone who expressed interest in being a part of your child's life.

Yeah, And be specific about how her behavior has changed, how that makes you feel and ask what you can expect from her down the line. Yeah. In terms of raising her husband's child. Yeah. All fair questions. And I was like, from one avoidant people pleaser to another. Do not avoid this and do not just like, make backdoor plans.

Yeah. And never bring this up with your meta again.

Daniel: Yeah. I was gonna say, this is finally somebody so avoidant that Laurel can give them anti-avoidance advice.

Laurel: Yes.

Nichole: polyamory, Reddit has decided that people are one faceted Yes. And if they exhibit one kind of behavior, that is who they are to Yes.

Their core. And there is no possible way Yeah. That they could change

Daniel: or evolve or grow. This is way beyond poly Reddit. It's way beyond Reddit. It is the internet writ large and increasingly our culture where, yeah. We feel the need to distill people into one simple angle Yes.

That we can perceive with our incredibly limited scope of moral generosity and attention span. Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: It is fucking. Bat shit that is bonkers.

Daniel: if I was like writing all you off, like every time that you were bitchy, I would,

Laurel: Jesus Christ.

Yeah. Nobody would talk to each other ever again. Well, speaking of

Nichole: Speaking of being a, a cunt,

this is a poly mind fuck.

Okay. Well, this is a poly mind funk where I was completely in the wrong. and I'm not still entirely sure what happened.

Laurel: All

Nichole (2): right. Um,

Nichole: Okay. So we had gone to see, design for living. We spent an afternoon at the theater RA and we were hungry. And Laurel, you had a gift certificate. Mm-hmm. A bar around the corner.

So we walked there. And we're talking about the theater, we're talking about the show that we just saw in anticipation of this is this poly segment that we were gonna do for the podcast.

Laurel: Yep.

Nichole: From my memory. Daniel, you started talking about going to England.

Laurel (2): Yeah, out of the blue. Daniel just was like, Hey Nicole , how about we go to England in May for for our much-delayed honeymoon

Daniel: when there's conflict?

I could always count on Laurel to deflect it towards May.

Laurel: I don't know what you're talking about.

Daniel: It's true. we all want to make Nicole happy because think of the alternative.

Nichole: Please appease. Mommy. You've seen the alternative. It's not fun.

Laurel: I know that it came up somehow because you wanted to go, because two of our friends are going too, and you're like, oh, we could overlap trips.

Daniel (2): I was like, Hey, it would be really cool.

They're gonna do their honeymoon. And, um, now that me and Nicole have decided that we're not going to do a Greek Island honeymoon, then maybe this is gonna be a little bit easier. Maybe we could do it this year.

Nichole: Right. And that sent me into a panic.

Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: Because I was like, how dare you make this financial decision without me, because I've just decided that you've made this financial decision.

Daniel: I mean, I did reach into my jacket and be like, but there's the tickets right here.

Nichole: Surprise. ,, I was like, , how could we possibly afford this? And it just sent me into this scarcity reaction. Yeah. Because I'm like, no, to go to England you have to scrimp and save for years.

And I started bringing up about how like America's having a 50% off sale, so it is going to be really expensive to go to England because it's gonna be twice the price of what it would usually be. And there's no way that I can save up that much money before may also, you get unlimited time off. I don't get unlimited time off.

Like all these things just like bubble to the surface. And I just decided that I was gonna get mad about it.

Daniel: You are one of the very few people in my life that sites sources for a panic attack and I really appreciate it.

Nichole: You're welcome. I think so. I was freaking out about that and then I said, well, but why don't we go to New Orleans?

Laurel: So then I involved myself And I thought that I was like doing a good thing. 'cause I thought that Daniel was just like, Laurel wants to go to New Orleans. I don't wanna talk about this in front of her. So I thought I would be like, maybe Daniel's trying to like be polite and not bring this up. But like him and I have talked about going to New Orleans. Because I had suggested it.

Yeah.

Daniel: You were assuming that I was not immediately acquiescing to going to New Orleans because I didn't want to like ruin our plans. Yes. That's what

Laurel: I thought was happening. Yeah. Yes.

Daniel (2): And that's when Nicole started getting really upset What I got upset about was that you started saying like some really passive aggressive things to Laurel. Mm-hmm. Or about Laurel. And I don't remember exactly what they were, so I can't cite my sources unfortunately,

but. I went to the bathroom and I came back and I asked you, like, well, did you apologize to Laurel? And then you said, yes. I, I apologized to your wife,

Nichole: And then I remember getting up and saying like, maybe someday I'll have something that you can apologize for. Like, I didn't remember that. Yeah. Like, because this was the second fight that we had gotten in where you had a problem with something I had said or

Daniel: done.

Yeah. 'cause you did shitty things.

Nichole: I know. But like I, I I think I was so mad at, I. Myself.

Laurel: Yeah. It's

Nichole: a snowball effect, right? Yeah. It's like I could feel myself getting angry and then I could feel myself getting passive aggressive and then I was just like, fuck it, I'll just lean into it.

'cause, because I'm a bad person and I don't deserve love and I don't deserve community and I don't deserve this relationship that we've all built. And so I'm just going to like burn it all down, which is what I do. Again, worldview

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: Evidence to support worldview instead of other way around.

Daniel: Don't be too hard on yourself about this.

I know that in the

Nichole: theme song it says, you are the author of this poly mine. Fuck.

Daniel: I know, I know. I'm not saying don't take responsibility, but the way that you're describing it now is that you just. Are constantly like, burning shit down. And maybe that's true like in some parts of your life, you hadn't ever like said such kind of passive aggressive things in the presence of, uh, everybody before.

Nichole: I think it's a pattern of behavior that I'm not a super big fan of. I'm trying to work to reverse these habits. Yeah. Like really like try to like super. Stop doing this or at least give myself grace when I am doing it and not bring other people into my bullshit.

And then I start to get resentful. 'cause I'm like, why do I have to be the one who changes? I always have to be the one who fucking changes. Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: But everyone is also changing all the time and working on their own shit. So it's like, it's not like I am the only person who is willing and able to like grow and I have to martyr myself.

Daniel: I mean, if we could have just all agree to remain shitty and not work on ourselves at all, then we'll just be even moving forward. I

Nichole: think we'd have a lot

Daniel: of content

Nichole: for the podcast if we just all agree to be shitty. Ooh. Okay. All right. You guys wanna give up now?

Laurel: Hands in.

Nichole: Oh, too slow starting

Daniel: right now.

Nichole: Fuck you buddy. So, yeah, what I ended up talking with Daniel about later was something that I had talked about with him before that I don't know that I've necessarily expressed to you, Laurel. But you hate me

Laurel: match. And what it is, is I actually just really don't like you,

and I wish you wouldn't spend so much time here.

Nichole: Would you put it past me to be that blunt? Like, I mean, anyways I think that, you know, I'm being really vulnerable right now, so. You're welcome listeners. Um, I think with you two getting engaged and getting married mm-hmm. Like, I felt really alone. Yeah. Because I don't know anybody else personally who has gone through this. Yeah. Yeah. Now, Daniel, God bless, was like, well, there's some influencers who have some, some experience. I'm like, yeah. The, the sphere that I wish to never enter again. I guess I'll go and find some influencers who I don't know, who are painting a very rosy picture of like, what it could be like.

Daniel: I like that you assume if it's optimistic, it's probably wrong.

Nichole: I completely believe that. I completely like, yeah. It's

Laurel: probably not the hole.

Daniel: Like that. You just finished that sentence at hole. But you had me at hole. It's

Laurel: probably a hole. It's probably a hole.

And Daniel would love to fill it.

Nichole: like as delighted and, and happy as I am I still don't have experience with this. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I don't know anybody who does. So I think it has manifested in self-deprecating jokes and evolved into passive aggressive behavior.

Mm-hmm. Because once I get past the self-deprecating jokes and I under, I unearth how I'm actually feeling. That's when I get reactive. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm sorry.

Laurel: It's okay. I mean, this is the thing that's like, like so akin to that stupid Reddit thing that like blows my mind is like we're wading through.

Largely uncharted territory. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like there are some people out there that have done it, but we have no social scripts for it. And so one, to expect people to feel the same way the entire time through that journey is unreasonable and just a, dumb expectation to have in general. Mm-hmm. Um, and to not have patience for however that expresses itself through the journey like, it's your prerogative, but it's such a mistake.

It is such a like un uncompassionate and like unempathetic and just like antisocial behavior to not realize that like shit comes up for people and we're not always the best at like, funneling it through the right filters

Daniel: this is a hypothetical you,

Laurel: oh, so sorry. I'm not like, I'm not like you're an asshole forgiven. So that was not my intent. I was not trying to be like, like how, how dare you could be. 'cause I understand like, I understand your position, Daniel, where you are like, like there was a degree to which you were getting kind of like, , defensive on my behalf

Daniel: like it was, it was a very difficult position to be in as the hinge.

Laurel: yeah, I could tell that a lot of your anger was coming from a place of like, how dare you say that, to or around Laurel kind of thing. Yeah. And for me, I'm just like, this is like water off my back. 'cause like. One, I realized Nicole is just having like a financial panic attack right now.

Mm-hmm. and I know I said this to you afterward, but I was like, you didn't have to like, continue to ask, talk about the finance part. Like, you could've let it go , so this is your fault.

Daniel: This is what I'm saying. This is what I'm saying. when There is conflict between you two, she finds the alignment by bringing you both together in opposition. To me, I'm just going to, you know, I'm just totally accept it as the way that people are.

No, but

Laurel: that No, I'm just saying like, like it usually takes two to fight.

Nichole: Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. Like,

Laurel: and like, There's a degree to which I like, understand and appreciate your, like, protectiveness of me and like empathize with that. Yeah. Because I would also do like a similar thing if I were like a hinge in that situation.

Yes. I looked at it as like this really, like, to some degree or another has very little to do with me. Yeah. Mm-hmm. and also I had already like, poured gasoline on the fire by bringing up the new Orleans thing.

So I was like, maybe I should just stay over here now.

Daniel: But now we're all one big happy family again. Mom, dad aren't fighting stupids. I don't know whose mom and whose dad,

Laurel: but. And which one of us is pregnant? Find out next week on Poly Amateur Hour.

Daniel: Oh, you know what? ubs you have. An amazing surprise if you have not read the title of the episode yet.

Laurel: We're bringing on our old friend, our old Canadian ally, our one Canadian ally, our one Canadian ally that doesn't even so much as super identify as Canadian anymore. Hey, I think that's

Daniel: a sore spot for them.

so I think it's a sore spot.

The Alex Alberto author of the book of essays slash memoir slash fictional exploration.

Entangled entwined. Entwined entwined. Also author of the animated film, entangled.

Nichole: Wait. Tangled. that joke, doesn't work on many levels. Yeah.

Daniel: We wanted to bring Alex back because one, we adore Alex, and we just get like, smarter by osmosis when we speak to them.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nichole: So we brought Alex Alberto on to discuss Inter Metso by Sally Rooney. For our segment is this Polly

Daniel: Literary Edition

Nichole: Roll Pages.

Daniel: I'm gonna have real trouble finding that sound effect.

Have we told you, Alex, about our drama with Canada?

I don't

Alex: think so. I thought you really liked Canada.

Daniel: We do, but Canada doesn't like us.

They don't like us. Well, we don't know that. Maybe they just are like too nervous to like talk to us. Oh,

Alex: I thought you were gonna say like they don't, don't let us stream our podcast in Canada or something.

Nichole: Oh no. Oh no. We have listeners and we have reached out to Canada several times.

Daniel: Once in a while, when we notice that we like, have a significant listenership as we do in Canada, we will do a read alert. And we did one for Canada like three months ago. And we're like, Canada. Canada. We know it's an awkward time, but we wanna, we want to like build bridges and we got no response and it's so, it's a little bit of a running gag with us. Yeah. But like Canada just, you know.

Nichole: Ghosts us. Just ignores

Daniel: us. What a bummer.

Laurel: Yeah. Maybe we need to be more specific, I think.

Daniel: I think Canada's just shy.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: do, do you have anything to say to Canada on our behalf? Alex, like, oh my goodness.

Alex: Canada, please cross the bridge virtually and. Come talk serious and silliness on Poly Amateur Hour. You will not regret it.

Laurel: Ugh. Yeah. Thank you. Oh, that's so good. Yes.

Nichole: I made sure that I wasn't breathing the entire time you were saying that, Alex, just so we could like, grab that audio

Alex: without, you know, this like priceless audio, you know, like, which will obviously make such a difference. 'cause it was so deep and dicing. It

Daniel: felt

Alex: heartfelt

Daniel: to me. Well, it was earnest and maybe that's the mistake that we've been making while trying to speak to Canada That's true. Is that we always have, oh, you're too silly.

We're too silly, too ironic.

Nichole: But also we asked once, we didn't hear anything and we were immediately mad. We just That is true. Immediately went on offense. You're like, what do you mean

Alex: we're not the center of the world? Yeah. Like, people are not like paying attention to us and immediately calling us. They didn't stop what they

Laurel: were

Daniel: doing to write us an email.

Laurel: Alex Alberto, we are so excited to have you back.

Nichole: Thank you.

Laurel: I'm so excited to be back. Yeah.

Alex: It's actually really exciting to be talking about a book that's not mine. Yay. Yay. Um, it's just, yeah.

I was really excited that you asked me for this because I read lots of books anyway. You were like, oh, maybe that's a big ask to read an entire book. And I was like, no, this is a joy. Yay.

Nichole: Oh, I love it. Especially

Alex: since I had not picked it up yet, but I have read all of her other books, and I was pleasantly surprised, I have to admit.

Nichole: I wanna pause real quick and tell the listener what we read and why we read. Read. Oh, thank you. I was gonna

Alex: say, I was like, maybe there's gonna be an intro where that's gonna be said more specifically.

Daniel: You, you. You overestimate our organizational skills.

Nichole: Oh my God. Okay, so today for our segment is this poll we are discussing Sally Rooney's Inter Metso,

Laurel: I heard it was one of Obama's favorite books.

Daniel: It seems like everything is one of Obama's favorite books. Like, every time I hear about a book, he's like, Obama loved this.

Laurel: He can't it now.

He can't, he can't read that much.

Is it now? It's not like the Oprah Book Club. It's the Obama Book Club. I do wanna say that actually this was, , a recommended read from a friend of mine, also a stu Hmm. like, for a while now.

Nichole: Does this mean

Laurel: Obama might be Polly? That's what I'm saying, man. Catch up. Well, I mean,

Alex: one can hope, but the polyamory is only kind of like a part of it, right?

Nichole: I wanna hear Alex explain this plot.

Alex: Yeah. Okay. I mean, it's not a plot heavy book, but it follows true. Yeah. Mainly. Two siblings, two brothers who are in Ireland, uh, live in Dublin, and they both just lost their dad.

So they're grieving they each have a love story happening while they're grieving. And the younger brother who is 22 years old, he is like a chess genius and he falls for a much older woman. I think she's 36. So they have a what, 14 year age gap, uh, while he goes at a chess tournament.

And she works for like the art center where it's hosted. And then the older brother who is 32. So they themselves have a bit of an age gap. has a relationship with a young college student. I think she's also 22 or something like that, and has sort of this ongoing thing with his ex-girlfriend where there are still very close friends and it looks like there are a lot of history there, but we don't quite understand at the beginning what their relationship is like or what happened.

And we follow all of these characters.

Daniel: So we've got older brother Peter, younger brother, Ivan Ivan's older girlfriend Margaret.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Peter's younger girlfriend, Naomi and Peter's old friend slash maybe girlfriend Sylvia. Yeah. Ex-girlfriend and girlfriend to be

Laurel: Spoiler. We'll get there. Geez.

Alex: this this was suggested to you.

Specifically for that, right? Like is this polyamory? Yeah. Yes.

Laurel: Yeah, exactly. And it was interesting 'cause my friend who suggested it to me I think she even said like, and is this poly candidate? But also if it is, it's not a good, like a positive representation of polyamory.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which I thought was interesting when I went back and read it. Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause it seemed kind of neutral to me personally. So yeah. As like Peter is going through this relationship, like he has a clear situationship with Naomi. Yes. Like, correct. Uh, young woman, she has some like, legal trouble through the book.

He happens to be like a civil rights lawyer. Mm-hmm. Or some kind of lawyer adjacent to like social justice kind of stuff. He's a do gutter. Mm-hmm. And she's a hot, young thing. Um, and he also like, seems to help her financially

but she also seems like independent enough , if he just dropped the ball, she would go figure out shit on her own.

Yeah.

Daniel: think it's clear that they have feelings for each other from the very beginning of the book. I think it's interesting that hers, Naomi's is one of the only perspectives that we don't get in the book. Mm-hmm. Really?

Alex: Um, Sylvia either.

Oh, that's right. Yeah. So we don't get the perspective of either, either Yeah. Of, of Peter's girlfriends. But we do get the perspective of Ivan, the younger brother's, older girlfriend, which was also interesting to me as well. Yeah. Yeah. So in terms of the polyamory, is this polyamory, I feel like we would need to be in their heads too.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. To like fully analyze what's happening. But right now we do only get it from his perspective.

Daniel: Yeah. So background on Sylvia the father dies and Sylvia comes back into Peter's life. It seems like they hadn't really been super close for a while. Like they hadn't been seeing each other on a daily basis and reconnecting.

Around the father's deaths. 'cause she was close to the entire family. Sylvia was, when they dated like , five to six years before this. Their relationship, the first relationship had ended when she got in a really terrible auto accident. And like she was in a great deal of pain and could no longer be sexual with him.

Or perceived that like the type of sex that she would be having would not be up to her standards. And so she basically broke up with him as a way to try and let him off the hook, so to speak.

And that's something

Alex: that we learn a bit later on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. But. It's, it's, we learned that it was clearly not his choice. That like he did not want to leave her.

Daniel: Right? Yes. Yeah. And she comes into this like situationship, like Peter and Naomi, like from the beginning, he is using terms like not monogamous.

Oh, it's not monogamous when he is describing it. Mm-hmm. Not strictly monogamous, is what you said.

Alex: we should say that they both know about each other. Yes. Which I do think, like both women know about each other. Mm-hmm. They've never met, but they sort of know that the other exists. So they don't know like all of the details, but at least it's not a like covert.

You know, non-monogamy situation.

Nichole: Yes.

Daniel: And I thought that was one of the sweetest parts of like the first half of the book. Um, and I thought of you, Alex, I thought of you and your love letters to Metamours and how I just, I really enjoyed the way that they were like communicating and checking up on each other through Peter at a certain point.

And they're like, yeah. Mm-hmm. Say hello to Naomi for me say hello to Sylvia.

Laurel: Yeah. It's funny 'cause that was like, like, you make a good point, Alex, that Sylvia and Naomi are the two characters whom perspectives we never get. But they were also like, one of my favorite relationships in the book.

Daniel: Agreed.

Alex: I was thinking when you were like, oh, I was told it was maybe a negative version of polyamory, but for me it's either neutral or even a bit positive.

Mm-hmm. Like it's obviously people, meaning it wasn't intentional polyamory from the beginning. It wasn't people who are like, I think I want non-monogamy. They're kind of just like falling into it, but as they're stumbling into it, there's a lot that they're. There's a lot that we're seeing that doesn't fall into the sort of tropes where it's like, oh, we don't see the two women being like super jealous of one another.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, there might be complex feelings, but even when they haven't met each other, like when Sylvia hears that Naomi, the younger one has been evicted from her apartment, like she truly cares. Mm-hmm. And she's truly worried about her and she wants Peter to be there for her. So even if they haven't meant met, and there's maybe complicating factors in how Sylvia and Peter ended their relationship, there's something I think that feels very caring from the get go.

Mm-hmm. Definitely.

Nichole: one of the things I remember picking up from this book is the existential crisis that this sends peter into.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: Like Peter as a character is. Public facing. Right. He's a lawyer. He makes public arguments in a court of law. Um, he cares very much about his appearance.

He cares very much about how he's perceived. To the point that that's Ivan's, like one of Ivan's biggest gripes with his brother mm-hmm. Is that he's like, he's putting on a fake persona and he talks with an affected accent. And I know that he is ashamed of our last name because it is not an Irish last name.

Yeah. Um, talks about an,

Daniel: an obsession with normalcy.

Nichole: Yes. Yeah. And so there's this part where he is railing in himself about like this conundrum that he finds himself in. And he, okay. He is thinking this

intermezzo: what makes it perverse is somehow confusingly the degree of his emotional involvement. The fact, in other words, that he actually likes them both. Is it so unthinkable people can have affairs without exiting the sexual mainstream? Surely, even if everyone agrees that affairs are wrong, wrong, of course, yes, but not suggestive of sexual deviance.

That one might feel attached to both wife and mistress must be in limited circumstances, though not condoned, still basically accepted and understood. No, he thinks no. No. The only question is how to choose. Should he take the cash prize or the new car?

What do you think? Pitting one philosophy against another? Maturity against youth? Yes. Sobriety against decadence, intellect against appetite.

Good Against evil?

Nichole: So I just thought that was really interesting that he had to, in his consciousness very black and white, these two women, because they weren't gonna do it themselves. As we learn later in the book, , they do not do that. Mm-hmm. And they have throughout the book, like asked about each other.

Alex: Which is another thing that is interesting about this is that it's another sort of, I guess, trope or point of tension that I don't see as much in the bad or common representations of polyamory where the blockers are inside the hinge partner.

Mm-hmm. Basically.

Nichole: Yep.

Alex: Like the other two partners are like, this is fine. I'm in this, like we're making it work. And he's the one being like, but this is wrong, but can I really love them both? I don't know. And truly, I mean, it feels very human and it's well written, but it is very frustrating as a seasoned polyamorous person to read because it's like.

You're just stop getting in your own way. Like you are the reason people are not happy. Like that's, you are the reason you are not happy. Like, that's it.

Just like Stop giving a fuck.

Laurel: So real

Daniel: as seasoned polyamorous, we know to blame the hinge.

Oh my God.

I think the third like aspect of his torment is a sense of right and wrong.

And this is something that people discuss throughout the novel, like whether this is the wrong thing to do and setting himself up for this choice is also this kind of binary thinking, right? Where he's like, I have to choose between good and evil.

which kind of brings us to a plot point that we haven't discussed yet

Laurel: Hmm.

Daniel: Is right after that passage that you had just read, he broke up with Naomi, Because he had just gotten a hand job or a blow job.

I couldn't really quite tell, maybe half and half from Sylvia. And he is like, oh my God.

Alex: And That is the first time that they're physical.

Laurel: Yes. Yeah. You know,

Alex: it's been like years and years and it's the first time that they're physical. So for him it's like a big deal.

Yeah.

Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Alex: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah. And so it breaks up with Naomi Then goes back to Sylvia. And is like, look what I've done for you, like her first thing is

intermezzo: Why? Why have you and Naomi broken up

you're over here shouting at me. I broke up with my girlfriend for you. Aren't you happy? Of course I'm not. I never wanted you to do that to her.

Daniel: Like, She never in a million years would've wanted him to have hurt this other partner, especially on

Alex: her

Laurel: behalf. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm.

Alex: And if anything she even says,

intermezzo: I had known that's what you were thinking of, nothing would've happened between us.

Laurel: Yeah, yeah. She's

Alex: like, I hadn't understood that you two were not monogamous.

That like, it was all Okay. we do talk in polyamory a lot about like not having the pressure to be everything to someone. Mm-hmm. And I think that for Sylvia, it's a big thing because sexually for her specifically, she feels like I, I don't wanna have the pressure of like being your own source of, sexual touch.

And you can tell that she's kind of feeling a bit claustrophobic by the idea that like, oh, now because we had this sexual intimacy, you're just, breaking up. And it's like, okay, and now we're back where we were all those years ago. Mm-hmm.

Laurel: Yeah. And it it seems like there's a degree to which Sylvia is liberated by this idea That Naomi is part of Peter's life, and so it allows her to relax in that way that you're discussing Alex, where she can feel Okay having a sexual encounter with Peter because she's not feeling the pressure to be the one in everything.

For him,

intermezzo: You told me it was all okay. She says there wasn't supposed to be any pressure. If something happened with us, it would be nice and if it didn't, whatever. It was all relaxed. There was nothing to worry about. No one was going to get hurt.

Daniel: I mean, I think that this is more common than we discuss like people needing to have the pressure taken off of them is not like a unique to I have been in a debilitating car accident situation.

Yeah. Like there is something that can be extremely liberating and satisfying for all of us just to not necessarily be the only person someone needs.

Laurel: That, that, that's very true. And sometimes I wonder if that's like a little bit of sort of like gender perspective coming into it a little bit. Mm. Where like women are told that like their main value is as a provider of sex. Hmm.

Alex: The gender thing is also interesting because in between Margaret and Ivan, the sort of taboo is in the non-monogamy. It's the age gap. Yeah. Yeah. Margaret is very aware that she's an older woman with a young man. Yeah. And there's just like a quick line where she's sort of thinking this of herself and of what people would think of her

intermezzo: motivated not by conscience, but by her own selfishness and the worst, most vulgar form of selfishness at that, which is desire. A shameful thing, the sexual motive in a woman especially,

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nichole: Should we talk about it ends with Naomi and Sylvia and Peter?

Daniel: yeah. The, the giant orgy scene really surprised me at the end. You know, it's kind of a. It was kind of a turn and then for some reason, like they all became hockey players. That's, that was the weird part.

They have hockey. I know that reference.

Oh, we are going to talk about Pucking around the next time that you come on the podcast.

Alex: I mean, I have the book, I bought it a long time ago. Somebody said like, if you wanna read like that's probably the best non-monogamous romance that you can find. Oh, I haven't read it yet.

cause I'm not well versed in the sub genres of romance. Yes. And then I guess it's called, I forget what it's called. Not uh, not choosing. Yeah. Why choose. Why choose romance? Yes. Yeah.

I've also

Laurel: just discovered this 'cause , one of the several people who recommended Pucking around was like, yeah, it's like, it was one of the better, why choose romances? And I was like, what? Like, I thought that was just something that they placed on it. And then when I went and looked up Pucking around, it was like colon a why choose romance?

And I was like, what? Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Yeah. They're they're marketing it.

Nichole: Yeah. I did not know when I found this Reddit post about this husband being upset that his wife loves hockey, that we would tap into this rich vein. Oh yeah. I'm like hockey, non-monogamous hockey smut. Like that is insane to me.

Nichole: Okay, so wrapping up. Yes. Sorry, intereso.

Daniel: Peter is having a little bit of a mental health crisis, both, you know, involving the grief for his father and this impediment.

That he has reached around his relationships that he has no choice but to be

Laurel: Polly

Daniel: God.

Laurel: Well also we totally leave out like this ongoing conflict with his brother that is like sort of the main,

Alex: I mean, yeah. Right. They have a really strained relationship for reasons way beyond, yeah. Yes. Monogamy or polyamory or grief, which was very well done and layered and da, da da.

Yeah,

Nichole: absolutely. also I was surprised that their father only passed like, what, a month ago before this book starts.

Daniel: I thought you were gonna say you were surprised that he only passed away once.

Nichole: No, no, no, no. It, it, it obviously like grief runs through this and there is no telling on like how grief manifests, anyways, he's having a mental health crisis.

He punches his brother in the jaw.

Daniel: I feel like we're going to have to leave out all the stuff with the brother for the most part. Or we just have to say now. We had this entire discussion about all the rest of the book, but unfortunately we're going to have to edit it out for the podcast.

Nichole: Done.

Daniel: Okay.

Alex: Well, one important thing though I, that like sort of made the latest feud between the brothers is that. I even told Peter about his relationship with an older, just divorced woman. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And Peter was like, what kind of woman would do this? You know what I mean?

And then that is sort of why they didn't speak for most of the novel. Yeah. The reason I think it's relevant is that he is essentially putting judgment on Peter's relationship that I think he feel fears either people would have or he has for himself. Yeah. Yes,

Nichole: absolutely. Because Naomi is Ivan's age. Yeah. And so, yeah. Ivan was pointing out Yeah. To Peter. Like, you have the same age gap basically, or somewhat. You have an age gap relationship too.

Daniel: Yeah. So. Peter is like super drunk by at this point and starts wandering around the city, eventually goes to his mother's place.

We are forced as readers, I guess, to forgive the mother for being really shitty to Ivan's dog earlier, which I did not want to, but she's nice to Peter at this point. Then he goes home the next morning and finds Naomi and Sylvia in his apartment. They were both super concerned about him because mental health crisis seems a little suicidal, and they were like.

Both ended up there talking to each other. Somehow they got each other's contact info.

Alex: His phone was dead, so they were like, what the heck is happening with Peter? We're really worried, which I really appreciated in the book, because then Naomi is like, I'm gonna find a way to reach out to Sylvia.

And she finds like her t like work email on the internet. Yeah. Yes. And then they get together trying to figure out like, where is he? Yeah. You know? And then because Sylvia has a key to his apartment, they're like, they're in true, like, you know, United Metamore search.

Laurel: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Daniel: yeah. How come, how come you two never lie me down on the floor and put a pillow under my feet.

Nichole: You, you, you've never gone missing.

Daniel: Well, I'll have to have to work

Laurel: on that. Yeah, just go on a bender. We'll, we'll find you. Yeah. Cool.

Nichole: I was gonna say something really sweet like Laurel and I would like go search for you, babe.

Yeah. Like we would absolutely search for you and we'd have that pillow ready on the floor

Daniel: and be like, when are you gonna leave?

Nichole: When can we replace you with an eagle?

Okay. So he comes home and he finds them

Daniel: and they're like being really sweet with each other. , He's in kind of a stupor. And then I think Sylvia leaves and him and Naomi seem like they are getting back together. Yeah. And here's where all the, like, you know, further parms about. Polyamory like, and whether it's good or bad, and if it'll work or not.

This is where I started to get impatient with it.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: It's like the T last 20 to 30 pages of the book where he just can't like, figure it out. And it takes all these conversations I'm like, dude,

Alex: but then he makes up with his brother and his brother, like the whole book, they talk about like the mother's like, what are you gonna do for Christmas? You know, I'm gonna go to Scotland. Where are you all gonna go? She's very concerned and they're all like, I don't know, I don't know.

And then he just makes up with his brother and then his brother invites him to his dead dad's house for Christmas with his girlfriend. And he basically says like in a very awkward way, like bring anyone who would want to come. And it's basically his way to say like, bring your two girlfriends.

And he's like, oh. Oh, I don't know. But then it ends up kind of accepting and we don't know if they're gonna go for real. Yeah. But it felt to me very sweet this the idea that they would then all go celebrate Christmas together.

Nichole: Yeah. Yeah,

Daniel: everything is resolved. All the conflicts are resolved at the end.

The conflict between the brother, all the relationships seem like they are stable and moving forward.

Laurel: Yeah, it feels like a very optimistic ending and I think that's sort of why I look at it like neutral to positive portrayal of polyamory in a sense. , 'Cause even though there's like a lot of turmoil in getting there, like it seems to arrive at a place where they're not necessarily saying this will all work out, but that everybody like in each of their respective possibly problematic situations can at least imagine a place where it does work out.

Daniel: Did you feel like there was an implication that. Peter, having been kind of forced into it by circumstance, was in a morally like superior position to somebody that would choose like a deviant, like one of us who chooses polyamory somehow. Like e even his attitude, like when his brother accidentally like drops the word throuple at the end, he's like, never say that again.

Like, there's this sense of loathing of the idea of polyamory as a way of life, and that what he's doing is completely unique and somehow maybe not quite polyamory because it's his own thing. And he had no choice and like he would never, still use the term he, he u he uses it, um, in a stream of consciousness.

Quite loathing too before that

Laurel: was that before he. Decides to.

Alex: Yes.

Daniel: Yeah.

Alex: Yeah, it is before, but I do think it's worth reading. Yeah, do it. Because I had highlighted it it's obviously his inner dialogue of what he thinks people thinks, but he thinks a little bit, so he imagined him himself like going to meet his friends at the bar 'cause he's on, it was his way to do that.

And like being very honest and telling his situation and taking a quick opinion poll

intermezzo: has to be one or the other. Of course, that's a given. Nobody argues about that anymore. Accept those unnerving moon faced people, the polyamorous, fetishists, and so forth.

People who have cashed in their erotic stake in civil society and are doomed forever after to sexual irrelevance in the eyes of anyone normal. No offense. With all due respect, he would rather drop dead and yet shredded thought, intruding is he not in some sense already.

Alex: Yeah.

Laurel: I always get the sense like, people who are being like the biggest like bigots or critics, like of a certain, like demographic or lifestyle, always in the back of my head, I'm like, oh, you just, you just feel a lot of shame. Mm-hmm. You just feel deeply insecure about who you are.

that is everything I pick up about Peter is like, all of your like anxieties and insecurities and judgements that you think people are making about you are actually just judgments you're making about other people. Mm-hmm. And if you stop doing that mm-hmm.

Like, you free yourself up a little bit. And that's like reading all of the, that sort of hemming and hawing from Peter and his, his little jabs very much feels that way.

Daniel: Do you think if people are saying like, never could I ever, they are already imagining themselves in your position,

Laurel: Oh, when you say something about being non-monogamous and they're like, I could never do that.

Possibly when people say that, sometimes I think that they are just uh, like intentionally cutting off their imagination.

Hmm. Like they're intentionally just putting a wall there so that they don't have to wrestle with it.

Alex: to answer your question, Daniel, though, I do think at the end we see Peter kind of. Questioning and reflecting and starting to break that down. Hmm. Like, he's not fully there yet, but to your question about is he, does he feel like he's in a unique situation and therefore it's different for him?

Like, you see him really reflect when he's out with Sylvia and he's like, oh, the way that we're walking next to one another, people look at us and they assume something we're not, or maybe we are. And then he has this whole reflection on like, how people observe any pair in public spaces and put on a label on them, like sister , like siblings or, you know, couple.

And then. If you correct them, it means replacing that with a different label from the labels that are available to choose from. Mm-hmm. And you can kind of see, he's sort of questioning like, do we have enough labels? Like he's kind of, sort of starting to like break everything down. Mm-hmm. So I don't think he's quite there yet, but I do think the book shows us that he's sort of on the path, which is also why, for me, I think it is a somewhat positive, you know, it's, it's a flawed set of relationships, but that does end, I think, in a positive place.

Daniel: it almost ends too positively for my taste. Like, just as a piece of literature like it I see what you mean. I don't know. It, it doesn't end with everybody gathered together at Christmas, but it ends with the thought of everybody gathered together at Christmas with the dog too.

Nichole: Okay. So we do have to ask the question, is this poly?

Daniel: I mean, can we escape the binary though? Is it good? Is it evil? Is it, is it right?

Is it wrong? Is it Polly? Is it monos? I'll

Alex: say it's Polly. Yes.

We, we, we,

Laurel: it's poly. Yeah. I, I was also gonna say it's poly. , And I forgot. We, we did an Is this poly for professor Marston, the Wonder Woman, where it was like, because there is more turmoil and it is a little like messy and confusing.

That makes it more Polly to me. Mm-hmm. Because there's more real. Mm-hmm. , But yeah, there's definitely like mutual love Yeah. Between the characters. I think even you can argue there's even like meta more love or at least compassion between Sylvia and Naomi too.

Nichole: Yeah. Yeah. I would agree. I think it's Polly.

I think across the board we've all agreed

Daniel: we got a wee, wee wee. Yeah. Wee wee, wee wee, wee wee. And honestly, I kind of get a little kick out of calling it Polly 'cause I know it would really piss off Peter.

And I would like to congratulate myself on getting through this entire discussion, oh God. Without bringing up the fact that Peter is also the name of both my penis and my ventriloquist dummy.

Alex: I'm also very proud of you. Well, that cancels it. 'cause you have brought it up now. It's always, and Nicole is crouched in her seat, hiding her face in her hands.

Nichole: Because it was my first thought when I was like, oh yeah, the one of the main characters' name is Peter. As

Laurel: soon as Daniel said Peter, I

Daniel: was like, wait for it.

Wait

Nichole: for it.

Daniel: Do you want me, you want me to leave? You want me to wander around the town all night?

Laurel: You can get out now.

Daniel: And then I, and then I come back and Peter is on the ground pillow under his legs.

Laurel: Oh my God. Oh God. Okay. Alex, thank you so much. Thank, thank you so

Alex: much.

Laurel: I can't wait to have you back so we can all talk about Pucking around.

Alex: I can't believe it. I can't believe it. I mean, perfect follow up.

Laurel: Okay. Yes, absolutely.

Alex: Go

Laurel: from just serious literature to the absolute most unserious of literature.

It just really blows my

Alex: jersey.

Laurel: Yes, yes. Oh yeah. I think we should all come dressed in hockey paraphernalia. Oh, wait, wait, wait. You need to give a little plug for your film though. Oh, yes. Oh, sure.

Alex: Yes. So my short film, that's an adaptation of one of the stories in my memoir. The film is called Coming Out Polyamorous for Thanksgiving. Just came out and is available on YouTube. It's a 20 minute film full of, you know, joy and drama. I would say it's not as a happy ending as Intermezzo, but I still recommend watching it and you can find it on YouTube.

My username on YouTube is that Alex Alberto and yeah, find me on the socials that Alex Alberto, and it's all gonna be there.

Nichole: Oh, so exciting. Yeah. I'm so excited. Yeah,

Laurel: I watched your sneak preview of it. And everyone should absolutely watch it. it is. Very well made. And so like, earnest and it's just like, it's so gratifying to see yourself like reflected in media and to see like really heartfelt complicated poly experiences coming to life that aren't necessarily about the stereotypical drama that people think polyamory is.

Daniel: It's a completely different drama that you never expected.

Laurel: The drama's outside the poly, the drama's coming from outside the house this time.

Alex: That's good. Yeah.