Nichole: Eyes Wide Shut is a Christmas movie.

Laurel: I get Christmas vibes from it. I have not seen it in a really long time.

Daniel: literally takes place over Christmas weekend.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah,

Laurel: yeah. when I think of that orgy scene, I do think of a Christmas orgy.

Nichole: Uh, that is the one scene where there is not a Christmas tree.

There's literally a Christmas tree in every single scene. Really? Yes. Except for the orgy scene. Except for the orgy scene. What

Laurel: idiot didn't put a Christmas tree at the orgy? Pretty sure Stanley Kubrick.

Daniel: It feels like with the edited version, right. The one that actually made it to theaters at first mm-hmm. Where they were trying to kind of blank out the genitals. Christmas trees could have been really useful at the orgy scene. Right. Just kind of do an Austin Powers thing where there's just always a Christmas tree.

Like, oh my God, somebody bends over and somebody hurries a Christmas tree through the scene.

Laurel: So they should've Yeah. They should have just like,

Daniel: yeah.

Laurel: C GD in some Christmas tree . Todd,

Now I'm like, I wanna do a Austin Powers eyes wide shut double feature.

Daniel: God, is there some vibe overlap though? Is there some vibe overlap with like Mike Meyers and Tom Cruise? Yeah.

They look, they look like people who are both afraid to stop smiling. They feel like brittle mask people, right? I don't know. Brittle mask

Nichole: people. Yeah.

Laurel: I do remember like, as you know, a teenager preteen, like I never really had a crush on Tom Cruise, but I think I did have a crush on Mike Myers at some point actually. Yeah.

Daniel: Like, which character? if you're rating like the vulnerability of various iconic Mike Myers characters,

Laurel: I always picture how I married an ax murderer.

Daniel: Oh

Laurel: really? Yeah. That's immediately went to Wayne.

Nichole: Interesting. Wayne, Wayne. Wayne, Wayne all day.

Laurel: Yeah. Which makes a lot more sense,

but for some reason wait, is it, have I married an ax murder? Or how I married an ax murderer. I think

Nichole: it's just, I married an ax

Laurel: murderer. Oh,

Daniel: I thought it was, oops. I

Laurel: married an ax murderer.

Daniel: Can you diagnose somebody's mental illness by which Mike Myers character, they want to bone

Laurel: Oh, oh.

Daniel: Like, like their true sociopath. As if it's the love guru.

Laurel: I've never seen the love guru me. Fucking neither. Me

Daniel: neither. But I've also never dated an ex murderer.

Nichole: I

Laurel: love.

Nichole: Wayne's world.

It's really good. And I love Wayne's World too. I just, I just love it so fucking much. It makes me so happy.

Laurel: That's good shit. Mm-hmm.

Nichole: Of

Laurel: all the SNL spinoff movies. Oh, I tried Tommy Boy, and it just did not hit the same. I, I enjoyed Tommy Boy. I do love with Conehead.

Daniel: I mean, that was a weird one. 'cause it's like a adaptation of SNL Sketch like 15, 20 years after the fact.

Nichole: No, definitely not 15 or 20 years after the fact. Yeah. Really? No, the cone

Daniel: heads were like 1975. Like, they're like original fucking era of SNL.

Laurel: And they didn't do it. No,

Daniel: they didn't do it until 1992 or nine three. And they stopped

Nichole: doing coneheads on SNL? Yes.

Daniel: It would be like if they suddenly in the 1990s came out with a wild and crazy guys movie.

Nichole: I mean, they did. It's called Night at the Roxbury, but Gotcha. Yeah. It's just different characters, Instead of shoulders, they just move their necks.

Daniel: Mm. Yeah. It's the way that society has really gone downhill. People just don't inhabit their body in a disco way. In an upcoming segment, we're gonna be talking about a album.

By Lily Allen. Mm-hmm. One thing I forgot to say about this album by Lily Allen

Nichole: mm-hmm.

Daniel: Is that I feel a little bit like there is some cultural appropriation going on because , the album has a very much like disco sound to it in places. Mm-hmm. but it's being used as, um, more, uh, monogamy propaganda and disco should be all about

Laurel: free love.

Yeah. Is disco The music of polyamory? Yes, it is. Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: I think you just made my mom like polyamory less.

She's anti disco. Yeah. She's not a disco person.

Nichole: She's missing out, man. Disco's. Great. Yeah. Disco culture was great. Yeah. It was a flash of the pan only lasted two years. But,

Daniel: A lot of the like anti disco rallies and stuff were kind of like, white nationalist, like spirit. Are you calling my, are you calling my mom a white nationalist? Yes, I am.

Nichole: Happy Hanukkah. Welcome to Poly Amateur Hour.

I'm Laurel,

Daniel: I'm Daniel.

Nichole: I'm Nicole.

Daniel: We are pro disco. We're gonna start a disco band because I think that it will be easier than explaining to people that we're a quee.

Nichole: I just really wanna like actually dance at a disco. What the fuck are we doing for New Year's?

Daniel: laurel's getting flown to Uruguay by a rich burner.

Nichole: What? Yeah.

Laurel: Okay. Bye.

yeah. I'm gonna go party with Sean and our friend Jason and Uruguay.

Nichole: All right. Okay,

Laurel: cool.

Nichole: Yeah. Have fun. Thanks.

Laurel: That sounds great. Thanks. I'm excited. I'm gonna lounge on the beach and pet some Capy Barra.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Can you bring a Capy bar back? Is that allowed?

Laurel: I'm not quite clear if I have to like cross country lines to seek out a capi.

Mm. And then if it's bad to import, and then they just have like a cap bar infestation after dumb Americans are transporting rodents between,

Daniel: there's like albino capi Berra in the fucking sewer system.

I just imagined like if you had to smuggle one back that you would put it in like a coat and a hat. Like a, like a cap bar in a, in a trench coat.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Oh, would it be on my shoulders?

Daniel: Oh, where you would be like a very tall, capi barrel faced faced man. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laurel: Am I bringing it back to the United States?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. okay. Yeah, then I definitely need to be in the trench coat with it, because I can't buy another plane ticket for it.

Daniel: Maybe you could just send it back in your stead.

Nichole: That is so rude.

Daniel: Oh my God. Wow. And Miss Kay. Okay. Okay. That that's not fair because honestly, Laurel is like the capra of Polly people also everybody. Everybody likes Laurel and wants to like put their head on her.

Laurel: It's true.

Daniel: Birds land on her.

Laurel: Birds land on me.

I am friend of the alligator. I don't know, there's pictures of caps with alligators. Oh, like, 'cause Yeah, they're friendly. There's like a whole like swarm of fucking alligators, like in a lagoon. And there's like one Catie just like chilling. Just like giving them all dental exams.

Nichole: That's you.

Laurel: That's me.

Nichole: Absolutely. You speaking of animals. Ooh. Oh, my segue got a Ooh. Yeah.

Daniel: Oh yes.

Laurel: We are here with a very special segment that we don't get to do often enough because people aren't sending us enough material for it, but we're back at it with another animal magnetism

we're gonna talk about some pigeons today.

Woohoo.

Pigeons are cute.

Daniel: So many, like pigeons, I don't know if they like, ate some kind of toxic paint These pigeons with like their club feet and it's kind of sad.

Laurel: No. That's what happens is , like string and hair gets tied around

cutting off circulation. Oh. And their little fe and so yeah, it can be really damaging. They can like lose limbs.

I've seen people who will like catch them and like cut the strings off of their feet for them. Good. Which is a task that particularly grosses me out because I don't like hair outta context. Oh God, you're right. Yeah.

Daniel: Hair out of context. Yeah. Yeah. The context

Laurel: being directly attached to your body.

Daniel: Have you ever seen those videos of like the daddy long legs, clusters? Yes.

Nichole: No. Is that

Daniel: your nightmare, Laurel? Or do you kind of like, does that go so far in the direction?

It goes so far that

Laurel: it's kind of cute. Like it's like a soot Sprite at that point.

Daniel: Daddy. Long legs, clusters though. It looks like, like pubic hair, like a little pile of pubic hair in a bathtub or something. And then you'll like tap it and it's just like, like scattered hundred daddy long legs, I actually don't have any pubic air. It is actually just a hundred daddy long legs.

It's my merkin. It's like my trained animal. Merkin.

Laurel: No,

Daniel: so pigeons.

Laurel: Pigeons. so I came across this, little, it was an article from them. you know them, the publication them? Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: Not the, , , ambiguous, , enemy, plural people. Yeah,

Laurel: yeah.

Daniel: That are not us.

Laurel: Them,

Daniel: them,

Laurel: Which like so much modern journalism is based on a TikTok video

about a. A, a man who was raising and breeding some pigeons, I think for a friend.

Daniel: I'm just, uh, raising these pigeons for a friend.

Laurel: Just for a friend. Yeah. No, they're not mine. It is for a friend.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: So they paired up what they assumed to be a male and female pigeon to breed some pretty, some pretty pigeons. and they got along great. They bonded, but they were never laying any eggs. Mm-hmm. They gave them some, other pigeon eggs to try and like jumpstart, like

Daniel: man, these egg things are really cool. We should make one of our own. Yeah, exactly.

Laurel: This was great. Let's do it again. Boop. Uh, and they would like raise the babies and do wonderful, but still would never produce their own eggs. So they, they were like, okay, well, we'll, we'll split these pigeons up. Um, and one of the pigeons did bond with another female and produce eggs with her.

Mm-hmm. The other pigeon they figured out he was male.

Nichole: Mm-hmm. I

Laurel: forget how they deduce that.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: Um, and then bonded him with another known female. They were producing infertile eggs. He's not into it. He left this hen to go back to his male partner, his bisexual male partner.

Daniel: Mm-hmm. And they started not exactly a throuple, I would say. This is like a V-shaped like triad.

Laurel: Yes. Our pigeon razor mistakenly refers to them as a throuple. Yeah. Because he is uneducated in the ways of polyamory. Three people doth not make a throuple.

Nichole: And people ask us all the time.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: And that's fine.

Daniel: mean, I do like that, that people like know that there is even a term for that now. I don't,

Laurel: I don't like that it's normalizing the word throuple to me.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. Because I never like that word, but now it's just becoming background noise.

Nichole: Yeah. Throuple is an annoying word. Because it's like, I mean, it's derived from couple, couple, it's like we can't have our own thing.

That we are not that we're, we not,

Laurel: we're not. Just to be clear, what do you call a four person? Relationship ple PLE now, now that I can get behind.

Nichole: Okay. So this pigeon is starting some drama?

Daniel: No, I don't think so. Oh, oh,

oh. And is it really an even drama? I feel like that's just the fucking hook for their, TikTok video is like, ah, you won't believe the drama that is ensued in the coop.

You know? what's the drama? It seems like there's just a group child rearing arrangement going on, like, God, haven't you ever heard of a fucking regal? It's not a big deal.

Laurel: Do you think this pigeon , poly Q has got their inspiration from the three goal? They aspire to be Eagles.

Yeah. They heard the podcast and they're like, actually, wait a second. Raising children in this economy with just two people Makes no sense.

Nichole: Yeah, probably. Yeah.

Daniel (2): What is up with the myopic view of the pigeon people though, do they just not see other birds?

The pigeon people. Them. Them.

we should just start telling people when they ask if we are a thpo, we should start telling them that we're a three goal.

Nichole: Actually, that would be, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We do need to do that

Daniel: and act like it's like a term that they should have familiarized themselves with. Yes. Yeah. Like,

Laurel: yeah.

Yeah. No explanation until they ask. You're like, oh God, I'm sorry. I forget that people don't, no.

Nichole: Laura, weren't you asked? Was it our New Year's party last year? Yes. Somebody asked you you were the second, the

Laurel: third. The third. Are you the third? Because someone else was like, don't you know who she is?

And would a bold, bold comment.

Daniel: She's the fifth element.

Nichole: You would be good in that costume.

Laurel: Ooh, that'd be fun. Yeah. And who's gonna be my flying car? Uh uh I

Daniel: guess me.

Laurel: Yeah. And then you can be Bruce Willis.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Is this, what really separates like our generations is that I am like a person who is familiar with Bruce Willis from Moonlighting First. Yes. Like if you're introduced to Bruce Willis through the hit TV show, moonlighting Co-starring Sybil Shepherd from like 1984.

Yeah. You are Gen X. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Okay.

Laurel: Yes. I did not know Moonlighting was a thing until three days ago. It's called

Nichole: the Bruce

Laurel: Willis Barometer.

Nichole: This is also

Daniel: you. You find somebody's generation by figuring out which Bruce Willis they imprinted on, and then you find somebody's mental illness by figuring out which, which Mike Myers's character they wanna fuck.

Nichole: We tie it all back to

Laurel: pop culture Does Gen Z. What is Gen Z's relationship with Bruce Willis? Ruber Willis' Dad. My God. Wait, who's ru will

Nichole: his daughter?

Daniel: Ru

Nichole: rumor, Willis.

Laurel: Rumor.

Nichole: Yeah. Him and Dee's daughter. Rumor. Rumor. What does she do? She's got big face. Are we sure? She looks a lot like her dad.

Daniel: Are we sure she exists or is it, is it just a, is it just gossip?

You know?

Nichole: oh my God. I'm gonna name my child. Gossip, gossip. Gossip. Actually, that would be a really great name for a cat. Ooh, yeah. Right?

Daniel: Yeah, I know. Cats don't seem to like talk that much.

Nichole: If anybody's gonna talk shit,

Laurel: it's gonna be cats, it's gonna be cat, and they are talking to each other. You better believe it.

Yeah. That's why I don't,

Daniel: that's why I don't let Richard outside. I thought they're not really that social amongst each other, like cats.

Laurel: You hear them chittering outside.

Daniel: Yeah, the

Nichole: titter is so gossip. Absolutely. They're telling your

Laurel: shit to the birds. That bird is bringing it to the county over.

Daniel: Yeah. Well the birds are sluts 'cause they're all fucking poly. We know this. They're talking to everybody.

Laurel: Wait, so what happened was there drama with the gay bird, so we had the bisexual

Daniel: gay bird.

Laurel: There's a bisexual bird. There's the gay bird

Daniel: There's no drama. They just seem to be living together now. But

Laurel: like I think there's an abandoned hen though. Yeah, the abandoned hen.

Like what's she up to? What is she doing? Was she

Daniel: Nobody thinks about the abandoned. Yeah.

Laurel: That's Lily Allen. That's Lily Allen.

Is she Okay.

Daniel: You know, it was a few episodes ago we introduced the concept of the call forward.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: On this pod where we would make a joke that would only be paid off. Yeah. In the segment that we had prerecorded

Laurel: we're the prophets. We live in non-linear time.

Nichole: Yeah. We're, A temporally. Funny.

Laurel: What kind of psychosis do we have? If that's our brand of comedy,

Daniel: that's when you're introduced to Bruce Willis through 12 Monkeys.

Laurel: Oh fuck me. But you wanna fuck Fat Bastard. Yeah.

Daniel: Oh boy. So today is a very special episode.

Laurel: Yeah.

We've got Leanne from Poly Flia blog.

Daniel: Yes.

Laurel: Visiting the

Nichole: pod today.

Laurel (2): for our practical poly segment,

Nichole: You can find her on Instagram at Poly flia blog. You can find her Patreon at Poly Flia blog. She's a content creator. She's a peer supporter. She is, training to become a therapist.

Yeah. so she's actually educated

Daniel: I'm trying to make the sound by myself. The

Nichole: projector sound, that just sounds like a sick pigeon

Daniel: Roll tape.

Laurel: yeah. I mean, everyone knows I have a degradation kink on the internet, so, you know, it's like, well, nothing is sacred anymore at this point.

It's like, yeah, Not me being a trainee therapist. And like, literally, like I have a video that has like 2 million views that is like a joke about my degradation kink. I'm just like, that's just out there now.

Daniel: Yeah. Your clients are just gonna be like, enough about me.

Let's talk about you.

Leanne: But hey, I mean, you know, there's lots of different, , discourses on this about like the extent to which you should kind of self disclose if you're doing like therapy or peer support, because like some clients they want like a blank slate and they want you to be like a mirror.

And then some other people, they want you to be like a real person who they're kind of talking to. So I think ultimately is it ideal that I've kind of shared like this much about myself and then kind of, and I'm going into this career path Like is it ideal? No. But like, I think equally the right clients are gonna come to me, and so far it's been working out, so hopefully it'll just be fine. Yeah. But

Daniel: kind of like

you have a, a self-disclosure, self-serve buffet ready to go.

So you don't have to like, wait for the client to ask you anything. You don't have to, like, you're like, if they do, you're like, well just go online. Like you can find out all about me.

Laurel: Yeah. And it's even, it's weird, even in my personal life when I'm like, oh yeah, like, this thing happened to me the other day. And then a friend of mine in my personal life will be like, oh yeah, I saw it in your story. And I'm like, you aren't supposed to see that. Um, that was meant for, uh, like, you know, the millions of strangers who don't know me.

Yeah. Which does not include you. Um, yeah. Instagram needs like a not friends list.

Yes. Only explicitly for strangers only. Thank you. And

Daniel: just, just like Lily Allen

Laurel: Exactly.

Daniel: Exclusively for strangers. Oh, yes.

Laurel: Yeah. Oh, okay. Let's, let's get into it. Let's get into it.

Nichole: Well, I think we wanna just really quickly, Nicole keeps us

Laurel: reasonable. Sorry.

Nichole: No, it's a good

Laurel: quality.

Daniel: Okay. She's the one who both expresses curiosity about people and gratitude. While we just volley, we just throw excrement around the room like a couple of,

Nichole: So I'm wondering if you can introduce yourself.

One, , services you provide, , a little about your, , online presence, and then I would love to hear your, journey to polyamory.

Laurel: Yeah. so I'm, I'm Leanne. Um, I'm Leanne yell. Um, my pronouns are, she, they, I, I don't know.

Sorry, this feels so awkward. Um, I, yeah. And I run the page. I run the page Poly Feel your blog. I've been doing it for five years now. it started out as just me fucking about on the internet making polyamory memes, and then somehow it blew up and now it's my full-time job and I left my, career in corporate law that wasn't really gonna go anywhere anyway, but let's not talk about that.

Um, and, um, and, and, yeah, I love what I do, you know, I love talk, talking about kind of polyamory full time, my aim is to kind of provide like bite-sized polyamory education. I also offer peer support, so I've been doing that for like four years now. Like where I've, uh, yeah, like I kind of work with people like one-on-one. I'm in training to be a therapist. training to be a psychosexual and relationships therapist specifically. I'm like about halfway through my training.

and I also have. certifications and sex education and peer support and that kind of stuff. 'cause I think it's important to Yeah, yeah. Wow. Have some qualifications and things. otherwise I am just a regular polyamorous person who happens to chronically overshare on the internet.

That's me.

Daniel: What I personally love about your content, I feel like. There's been waves of poly influencers, poly educators online that have been like taking themselves way too seriously.

Nichole: Mm-hmm. And

Daniel: I feel like you are like the counter agent because your content is so fucking fun um, there's no sacred cows in polyamory, in the, in the way that you deal with it in your online content.

Laurel: I mean, I try not to take myself too seriously because like, I think doing what I do, it can very easily get to your head. people forget, we're all just regular people and some of us happen to share more of our lives than others, but, you know Yeah.

Like you follow account doesn't mean you're more, right. Yeah. Yeah. I think another aspect to it as well is like the algorithms have really kind of fucked this up for everyone.

I think there was a massive shift in 2021 when everything started. Like video started being prioritized. Mm-hmm. Everything became so much more sensationalized. Yeah. , and I was just like, oh, fuck. Mm-hmm. What is this going to do to just education that like, everyone feels like they need to rely on video to learn things.

Mm-hmm. And like yeah. What's that? What that, what's that gonna do to, to our minds? I have a lot of concerns about the internet. Yeah. Like, um, which is ironic considering that, you know, it is my life and my, my life's work. Right. But

Daniel: Yeah. Of course. You gotta be concerned about the internet. You're one of the, final wave of humans before, before they roll out, before they roll out. Ai Leanne? Oh no. Oh my God.

Laurel: Oh, I guess like, kind of my poly journey is a little bit unconventional in that one. It started when I was pretty young. Mm-hmm. , I was like 16, 17. , And another thing is that it was a mutual decision, which I know is not most people's journey into it. Did it work out? Absolutely not. But the initial, um, you know, discussion was very positive and smooth.

Yeah. the pipeline was a bit of a classic. It was like a long distance to, polyamory pipeline. Yeah, yeah. We weren't gonna be seeing each other for like, most of the year.

we don't wanna break up. We don't wanna cheat on each other, but we also don't wanna resent each other when we are, you know, for not being able to like, have sex when we're 17 years old. Yeah. And wildly horny. Yeah. You know, unrealistic. so, you know, we, it was just a very practical decision.

I think a lot of people go into it being like, oh, I want this sense of like autonomy and freedom and like Absolutely. Is that for me now. but at the time it was just like, well this makes sense. So why. Why would anyone do anything else? Right?

Yeah. And

Daniel: did you know, you know, Like, did you know what you were doing? Was polyamory or non-monogamy or were you just like, no, we have discovered we are the first to discover this wonderful thing?

Leanne: I mean, I think part of this is just me being like cripplingly autistic, but I, did not realize that other people didn't think about relationships the way that I did.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, for like a super long time, even with my first boyfriend, even though we were ostensibly monogamous, there were certain things that we did in our relationship that I think most people in monogamous relationships wouldn't do, and that we just kind of thought was normal.

Yeah. like we'd be constantly talking about our Es and other people. Yeah. Like he was bi and I at the time did not realize I was bi, but we were like talking about boys together, like all the time.

Yeah.

like he was cast in a play at school where he had to, , kiss a friend of mine and I got really excited for them and I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna come see all the shows, you know, like, it was gonna be exciting.

You're gonna, my friend. Um, and my friend was super weirded out by this by way. Um, you know, I think this was me like just baby Leanne, like experiencing something akin to com conversion and not quite understanding. Yeah. Like what it was. Yeah. Like, I think it really confused everyone.

I, I, and, and yeah, like I remember like a feeling kind of so happy for them also kind of turned on and I was, but I didn't quite understand like what, you know, there was a lot going on there, there was a lot going on there that I didn't quite realize,

Daniel: like, yeah, you're so young at that point. Like you're like, am I a theater kid? Am I poly? Am I bi? What is the influence that is that is driving this? Yeah. Yeah. But I

Leanne: think, I mean, literally, all of the above as it turned out. Yeah.

Nichole: I think also just like we don't have a roadmap now. I can't imagine Mm. Trying to navigate this as a teenager. Mm. Like that's that's a lot. Yeah.

Laurel: wait, when did you discover or like learn that, like, like polyamory was a capital T thing?

I think I must've been 20 or 21, , because I had a partner when I was at university and we were in an open relationship, but he started throwing around the word polyamory and describing himself as polyamorous and like. He was not polyamorous. Um, he was, yeah.

Like he, he was like fucking around and calling it polyamory. Yeah. I didn't have a better understanding of But, but like, that was the first time I'd heard the word polyamorous.

And it wasn't until like after we broke up that I was like, Hmm, maybe I will look into this thing. 'cause I started out doing general non-monogamy, right? Mm-hmm. Right. Like, you know, sexually open, but not romantically. And then at some point in, yeah, like, I think 2018 or so, like, I started identifying as more polyamorous.

'cause I was like, well, if you start sleeping with a people for an extended period of time, if you're sleeping with the same person or people, like, inevitably you do develop a sort of intimacy.

Mm-hmm. Like, it might not be romantic intimacy, but it is like an emotional closeness because how could you not? Yeah. Right. You know, unless you're like dissociating the whole time. Unless

Daniel: you have a glory wall.

Laurel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unless you have a glory wall.

Exactly. And you know, it's all anonymous or you know, you are just, yeah. but like, uh, uh, where was I? Like, I just, my mind just like visualize that and I remember what I was gonna say.

Daniel: This is, this is my job to, uh, to occasionally I just step in and I pull the lever that changes the train tracks. Yeah.

Laurel: Like, fuck yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now we're in Glory Wall land. Yeah. Like everyone go to horny jail.

in terms of my current relationship landscape, ironically, like despite being polyamorous and having kind of that capacity, I actually, I find it really. Difficult to fall in love. my standards when it comes to sexual partners are not as high. Oh my God. Um, but like, but when it comes to kind of re relationships Yeah. Like, it does kind of take quite a lot. Like for me to commit to something quote unquote serious.

Hmm. So I have like one romantic relationship and we've been together nearly four years now. and I have like a smattering of, you know, lovers, friends with benefits. Uh, ambiguous friendships mm-hmm. Where we fuck occasionally. Mm-hmm. You know, comments, et cetera. I couldn't even kind of count for you like how many I have because there are some people where I haven't seen them in years, but theoretically we would fuck if we ever saw each other against.

Right. Did they count as a partner? I don't know.

Daniel: it's like trying to count the, uh, number of pretzels in a bag of pretzel bits. You know, ex Exactly. To

Laurel: your what? Yeah. What?

Nichole: Wait, wait. So the, are you fucking

Laurel: the

Leanne: pretzels? Don't, trying to, don't kick shame. Are you putting, there there are three holes.

So many options.

Daniel: Kinda salty. Oh

Nichole: God. Oh, a team.

Daniel: what qualifies as a pretzel? What qualifies as a, as a partner? So counting them is, is difficult

Leanne: because

Daniel: you're going, because there's a crumb. Yeah. Don't make me try and over explain this one.

Leanne: You

Laurel: brought it on yourself.

You I

Daniel: did.

Laurel: like I am the opposite of whatever demisexual is. Um, you know, I think the term is mega sexual, most people just think that means extremely sexual, which is not wrong.

I think it would just be easier for me to explain that, like, I do not tend to develop romantic connection with people unless we've already developed a really strong sexual connection. Whereas I understand that demisexual is usually the opposite. Um, interesting. I'm very like unashamed about the fact that like a big part of non-monogamy is about the sex for me, and I think that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah. You know, what really grinds my gears,

Nichole: your

Leanne: what, something that really pisses me off about the polyamorous community, um, is that there's this idea that like polyamory is.

Better or more pure morally because it's about the love. Mm-hmm. Yes. Um, and when people, when people do that, they're like, yeah. Um, you know, it's about the love and the intimacy. You know, it's not about the, it's not about that dirty degenerate sex that those swingers are having. Yes. You know, what we're doing is like, so like, pure and, transcendent.

Right. And I'm like, I mean, guys, like get a grip. Yeah. So that, that really pisses me off. So I'm very loud about the fact that like, I am. Very slutty. Yes. Um, and I, yeah, I really enjoy group sex. I think doing a non-monogamy for this sex is okay.

Yeah. Why is that such a

controversial thing to say? Right.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: We've discussed on this podcast like respectability politics and Removing the, degenerate sex from the discourse on polyamory from polyamorous people mm-hmm.

Is positioning themselves, at least at very much in America with the puritanical, like kind of waspy Christian ideal of what a family is, right? Mm-hmm. Like that's, yeah,

Laurel: yeah, yeah. Like, I don't wanna blame y'all, but I do think it is mostly coming from you guys. It's for sure. Yes. Yeah. We'll take credit where credit is

Daniel: due.

Nichole: In the same vein, we've also talked about how polyamory is not morally superior. Yeah. Right. Like non-monogamy is not, but I am, you are, you are the moral barometer for all of us.

Laurel. Yes. Yes. Um, welcome. also, the discourse in anti non-monogamy and anti polyamory is like, they're pushing it on me because they are saying that it's more evolved.

Leanne: Yeah. And, and I think also if you do think about it as something that's more evolved, I think that's actually quite dangerous. Yes. Potentially. Because

'Cause you're going on going in with roast tinted glasses and you don't know what you're in for. Yes, exactly. So like, everything's gonna be fixed once I do this. And it's like, no, actually Yeah. Might get worse.

Nichole: Speaking of getting worse, someone's non-monogamy journey got worse.

Laurel: Ooh. We're really improving

Nichole: on our segue. Yeah.

Daniel: for our third attempted segue to our segment is this poly

Laurel: where we take a piece of popular culture and ask the age old question everyone's dying to understand.

Leanne: we are talking about Lily Allen's new album, west End Girl.

Yeah. Yes. We're, thank you. You know, uh, which details Her Failed Open Marriage with David Harber, um, who starred in Stranger Things. So I, I told my partner, oh, like Lily Allo has a new album about, like open origin. It's really spicy. And he was like, oh, okay, yeah, maybe I'll listen to it.

At some point he didn't. And then, then like two weeks later he was like, you didn't tell me that the album was about David Har, and he told me about that. I would've been, I would've been in there. That's the selling point. Yeah. I's I was like, I I your priorities. What? I'm confused.

Like I would highly recommend listening to the album 'cause I think the.

I'm not a music critic or anything, but I think it's sonically quite interesting. uh, I think the lyrics are really good, um, with some, there's some really hard hitting lines in there. , But yeah, basically the TLDR, if, from my understanding, , is she, and her and her husband moved to New York together, they bought a house, which is, is like in architectural digestion.

Oh yeah. Is like the most crazy home. you know, she's like alone in a new country, , and, you know, doesn't have community there. And then at that point in time, like when she and her husband are apart.

Like, she gets a phone call from him and he's basically like, yeah, I wanna open up the marriage. yeah, she feels pushed into a corner obviously that doesn't go well. she has a song where she talks about like, relapsing into an addiction. Yeah. Um, and eventually she finds the courage to stand up for herself and leave him.

So that's the tldr r what I would call this is, uh, Polyon duress, right? Yes. Which is like a ton that Dan Savage came up with a while back. a lot of, a lot of people have argued that like, polyon duress isn't a thing because if it's under duress, then it's not poly.

and also people being like, well, technically the poly person was like mono under duress, like at that point in time. And so, you know, like who okay, can you really say is like putting the other person under duress? I feel like we're losing the plot. Mm-hmm. because, here's another thing that grinds my gears.

This definitely's just gonna be a list of things that can look accordingly, hands gears. So second thing that grinds my gears is when people go, well, that was abusive slash toxic slash unhealthy and so therefore isn't real polyamory. And I'm like, I understand that polyamory is ostensibly about like ethics and consent and everything.

Mm-hmm. But if you try and brush everything out of the realm of polyamory by just being like, well that wasn't healthy. And so that's not polyamory. And so we can distance ourselves from this concept, then we don't actually end up having any productive conversations about what unhealthy dynamics within a polyamorous context.

Look like. Mm-hmm. Which doesn't help anyone many people have been hurt in polyamorous relationships just like they would in monogamous relationships, right? Yeah.

Like polyamory is not special. It's, my answer to the question is this poly is like, like yes and no because like, yes, because it happened in a polyamorous context, but like, no, in the sense that like, yeah, like this isn't what polyamorous should look like.

Mm-hmm.

Daniel: It's a little bit like, what has happened in the history of like, queer representation in, , media and storytelling in that, you know, when we say, oh, we're finally kind of liberated when we're able to be the villain as well. But it's almost like we're trying to get a shortcut, like, you know, okay.

Um, we don't, we don't want, we don't wanna be represented as the bad guy. But also we want to be able to play the bad guy

Laurel: Yeah. I mean you, if you look at how just queer representation has happened, I mean, like first like gay people were always portrayed as mentally ill or like lost kind of wayward people or like, you know, evil or, you know, just kind of something was kind of fucked up about them or they would die at the end to show.

Mm-hmm. Like the moral lesson of like, you can't be this and otherwise you'll, you know, God will punish you or whatever, and then there was a period where like representation got better, you know, and there were more kinda accurate, tellings of like queer people in media.

And then now like we have like a range of representation where, at least certain queer identities are like better represented and more diversely represented. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, polyamory is very much in the first phase, you know?

Yeah. Like of that, like where yeah, like, we're kind of always being portrayed as like, you know, there, there's, there's a moral lesson to be learned here or, , you know, this is ultimately like a plot device for return to form the form being monogamy but I also think that, depictions of this in like fictional storytelling, is obviously very, very different from this very, very real account. Of Lily Allen telling her V own very personal, vulnerable, and real story.

Which is why I think the discourse on this has been so mixed.

Nichole: Hmm.

Laurel: Because like, I don't want to take away from her narrative by being like, you are contributing to bad representation po. Because it's like, well, that it's her story, But I think it's just upsetting that if, , someone released like an album about like how positively everything was going in polyamory, it would not nearly get the amount of traction that it has.

Nichole (2): That's what we always say about like, if you had a reality show that was actually depicting polyamory, it wouldn't be interesting because people love the mess. Mm-hmm. You know? And like, it's just there's not a lot of drama in like deciding who's gonna pick up the

kid from soccer practice. right. Yeah. Or who's gonna unload the groceries?

Laurel: Yeah, I struggle with the whole poly under duress debate because I think that it is weird to like give it a separate label. Mm-hmm. Like. We don't talk about monogamy that way. And I don't mean like monogamy under duress as in like, oh, I wish I had like autonomy and liberation.

But I feel like, uh, the partner and societal pressure to be otherwise, it's just that like when things go wrong in monogamy

Nichole: mm-hmm.

Laurel: It is because there's a specific relationship and specific behaviors that go wrong. Mm-hmm. But when we talk about poly, it is polyamory. That is the problem. It is the polyamory in this construct. Mm-hmm. That is the problem rather than Yeah. Poor relational dynamics and like Yeah. Antisocial behavior

Daniel: like, rather than, uh, poly under duress, it's like poly under duress.

The duress is the, is the action, yes. Is the actionable thing. Yeah.

Laurel: The duress is the issue. Yes. Yes. It's that like we didn't No, I, I completely agree. The majority of the time, the duress is not being imposed by anyone in particular. The duress is being imposed by the situation.

Yes. Yeah. You know, because like, you cannot deny that. Like if you've been in a long-term marriage and you've got kids and all of that, and it's like, okay, well either I, you know, choose this relationship style that I don't want, or I choose to leave this life, which I also don't wanna do, and would be very difficult and sometimes even impossible to do mm-hmm.

In some scenarios, depending on, you know, finances or whatever. Like literally any other like toxic relationship where people go like, well, why don't you just leave? And it's like, it's not that simple. Right? Yeah. So yes, there is duress.

Daniel: Yeah. . This, this album, I feel like it had a little bit of the opposite effect with me from what I imagine Lily Allen wanted.

Mm-hmm. Like, it is a diss album. I, I think it's, you know, it is a, it is a takedown.

Nichole: Yeah. You

Daniel: know, and it is. Of a, almost like clinically exhaustive catalog of shit that has happened. Mm-hmm. Every song is like, is it's, it's, it simultaneously feels like it's all linear. Like, it's a story from beginning to end.

Mm-hmm. And it's all very literal. Mm-hmm. And there's no like kind of layer of metaphor or storytelling, It is just like, here's what happened, here's the shit, this guy did, but it's also a ton of what feels like incredibly thirsty, codependent, freak out energy on her behalf.

Like, sure. It sounds like he's being a real shit. . But she comes off as like, , she's going through his, his phone. She's checking , the text. She's going through drawers.

She is fantasizing about murdering this person that he is sleeping with she's, she's reaching out, getting information and then not believing the information

Leanne: She's

Having a full on crash out.

Daniel: Yeah. For real. Yeah. and it feels like it starts kind of before everything goes off the rail, it's like a chicken or egg kind of thing, right? Like I would not want to stay in a relationship with somebody that is imagining, killing people with a shotgun.

This is some real brutal monogamy energy. So we, we have another segment that we do, it's kind of our like corollary to Is this poly? And it's called monogamy. Are you okay? Are you okay?

There's, there's one, um, episode of Monogamy. Are You Okay? That we did where, and we keep bringing this up. This is one that is like, it comes up every, every episode now since I think. Mm-hmm. It was, , a husband who was incredibly jealous and paranoid that his wife was really into hockey and was like going to hockey games with this friend of hers who, and this was totally not cheating, just was really into hockey.

And it, oh God, this song tennis, oh my God. Reminds me of this. She's like, she's like, I don't care if you're fucking her, but like, are you playing tennis? I mean the bigger question is just Lily Allen.

Laurel: Are you okay? Which Amy is not. Yes, that is, yeah, that is what I said this morning prior, even prior to this, like, I don't know how much of her previous discography you've listened to, but like Lily Allen is, you know, bless her soul. not, not a very secure person. Yes. No. Um, like she makes that very, very clear in her previous music.

And so yeah, I'm not surprised that she had a crash out with this. yeah, I mean there were a lot of things that she said that I was like, I mean, I understand where you're come coming from with everything that's happened, but also yikes.

Yeah, yeah. And Yeah. And I, and I think the Madeline song was really interesting, um, because like I have been in that situation. Yeah. I have been like the person, like asking the other woman like, what the, like what the fuck was really going on here? And I've also been, the other woman had absolutely no fucking idea what was going on.

Right. Um, trying to kind of provide answers, for, for this person. So, you know, I really felt for both of them in that situation. And I think minus the love and light Madeline bit, um, pretty much everything that Madeline said in that voice note, I probably would've said if I was in her position.

Right. Um, and it, and it's just really heartbreaking that like Yeah. Like she, like it is just spinning out so much that she doesn't know who to believe.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Laurel: And I don't think it's about Madeline necessarily. I think she's just, you know, she's just spinning out like, yeah, well, so I felt really bad.

I felt really bad for her.

Nichole: The relationship started to dissolve at the very, very beginning of the album when she says, I gotta lead in a play and he's not excited. Yeah. Yeah. That's the second that it starts. And so it's, she's already exhibiting insecurity.

you know, And then we only hear her side of the conversation when he calls to tell her basically like, we're gonna be non-monogamous now. Yeah. And her first response is, I feel like I've absolutely said that sentence out loud mm-hmm.

In other contexts yeah. You know, like, like I've absolutely like.

Leanne: Yeah. And I think it, it's like ultimately it's an album about, I think just like healing from people pleasing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, at the end of the day. Yeah. Like, because you know, like, yes, this Al album is like a take down of him mostly, but she also criticizes herself, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, there are various points where she talks about being passive. She talks about like, lying and control to try and keep the peace and, in the Fruity Loop song, like, she talks about like, just like having daddy issues and like, that's why she kind of let, let him get away with this kind of, for so long because she didn't have the self-esteem to like push back mm-hmm.

And kinda stand up for herself and be like, no, this is fucked up.

Laurel: I think the end of the up was not her being like, all of this is your fault and I did nothing wrong, but her going like. This didn't stop with me, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, like it's not my fault that you decided to do all these terrible things to me.

Nichole: Yeah. I feel like the end of my album would be, this is all your fault. I did nothing wrong.

Laurel: I said this to Daniel this morning, like the last song is where I get like more on board with it because it is a little bit more of a measured look, like a reflection on the relationship where the rest of it is like, yes, more I am in the crisis mode and I, yeah, like probably like a deficit of my own, like I have a really hard time relating to, content that takes place in crisis. Mm-hmm. Crash out mode. Mm-hmm. for me, when I'm like beyond that point, I don't wanna like dwell in it anymore.

Mm-hmm. And so like, I, like I'm just not attracted to that kind of content. And then when it, when she finally gets to the Fruity Loops, even though I'm really upset that Fruity Loop is like a lyric in there, but is that like a, is that a British Yeah. Is that a British No, I've never heard that. Okay.

Because all I could think of was, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Also, also Pussy Palace was also cringe. Yes, yes, yes.

You could have called it anything else? Yes. Um, yes. I dunno. What, what, what, like, what, what are the alternate words we could have come up with? Um, min Mansion,

condo, con condo. Hell yes.

V Versace. Ooh. V Versa. Ooh. V Versa. Yeah. Not bad. Ooh. I like it.

I'll catch a lot of flack for this, but I think that in the world of social justice, we got to the place where at least like in America, in counterculture circles, oppression and victimhood became kind of a status symbol.

Mm-hmm. A little bit. Yeah. And so you could win, clout and points, or at least insist that people listen to you more based on. oppressed identities that you held or sort of the amount of like victim hood you held. I think that I tend to have kind of like a visceral reaction, I am just like suspicious of the capital and being a victim in certain situations. Yeah. And especially in situations where like you're selling a product with it. Mm-hmm. Whether that product be, , like social clout or, an album. Or an album or like media in a certain way. Um, and taking that as truth.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: Where we're all a bit more complicated than that. Yeah. And also it makes us too ready to concede our power to other people. And there are Oh yeah. A hundred percent. And I think that's what Lily Allen is like admitting to toward the end is like, I conceded my power to you in situations where you didn't actually have it, you didn't deserve it. and like I needed to be truer to myself.

Nichole: But she's also doing the white woman special. Yes. Which is like, you can flip from, victim to perpetrator. Mm-hmm. at the drop of a hat. Yeah. Like, you get to, as a white woman, slip between those two identities and use it to your advantage. I think it comes naturally to

Laurel: like

Nichole: Millie Allen being a white woman.

Laurel: Yeah, yeah.

Daniel: And you were saying like, it pisses you off specifically when there's something that is trying to be sold it pisses me off a little bit more when it comes from like, the very dominant paradigm.

in the US , Leanne, we have this, , thing that we're always talking about, which is the right basically holding up, the story of something like the war on Christmas. where you assume the victim role, but you're from the dominant paradigm.

So it's like, oh yeah, there's a war on Christmas because we have to say happy holidays and shit. And suddenly Christians are oppressed. Yeah. And suddenly Christians are oppressed. So it's a way of like a sleight of hand to make your dominant class your dominant, ethnicity or your dominant culture into.

The victim.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: You can extend that to other aspects as well. When people, when, transphobic, people are like, there's a war around womanhood.

Exactly. And there's a war, you know, against children. And, and even in the dating scene, there's a war against monogamy and a war and a war against commitment. Yeah, exactly. Um, it's, you know, like, it's really interesting 'cause obviously like Lily Allen, like needed to express herself and her experience in this relationship.

And now we get to talk about it as content and as like, is this an example of polyamory? , like people can turn it into an admonishment of non-monogamy.

Leanne: Mm. And I don't think that's what she's going for. Love the exhibit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is so like exhibit

Laurel: A

Leanne: in y Poly

Laurel: doesn't work. This really isn't about polyamory so much. It is just like her pain and her story. Yeah, yeah. Which is fine.

like, did I wish it didn't contribute to this already dominant narrative that all polyamorous people are selfish, entitled, manipulative. STI riddled, I wish it didn't contribute to that. But it does. and I, and I just hope that, at least in like fiction, in the fictional realm, that people can stop portraying, you know, polyamory in much more diverse ways. Not necessarily positive ways, just diverse ways. Yeah.

Daniel: I am longing though for our version of like The romantic comedy, like the happy ending polyamory movie that is also like just a piece of confection, You know, I feel, I feel like I would say that they were working

Nichole: on a Yeah, they're working on a meta romcom. A meta romcom. Metamor. So that's gonna be for you and I. Okay. Sorry

Laurel: Daniel. Sorry you can't come. It's a meta party.

Daniel: Um, but I get off on watching you become close platonic friends. Can I, you can

Laurel: go be weird and masturbate, like peeking through the window.

You can go be weird and masturbate.

Daniel: You know, that's the weirdest

Laurel: thing

Daniel: you could do, Laurel. I, I never need permission to go be weird and masturbate. This is, this is my, I was born this way.

Nichole: I think, I think we can all agree Yeah. That this album is not Polly.

Laurel: I, I think it is a story like without the context of polyamory would not work.

Nichole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Is it ethical

Laurel: polyamory? No, but like, this happens to a lot of people I think it is an important conversation for the polyamorous community to have and to be vigilant about, because. She's not the only person this has happened to. Yeah.

Daniel: David Harbor has done this to so many women.

Laurel (2): Apparently. Well, yeah. Every woman in David Harbor, specifically Palace, we got Laurel ex. We gotta excommunicate David Harbor from our community.

Laurel, I'm gonna say no. we often split hairs between like non-monogamy and polyamory. I think this is very explicit, like non-monogamous, open relationship paradigm that got horribly wrong. so yes. Non-monogamy, no polyamory. Not because it's not ethical polyamory, but because they had like explicit rules of like, it should only be with a sex worker.

Oh yeah. There had to be payment. Yeah. And yeah, it had to be discreet and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nichole: I agree. non-monogamy. Is there, or I mean, the idea of it. Yeah. Um, the shadow, the concept of it. Yes.

Yeah. The shouting from two houses away idea, but no on the polyamory. Yeah.

Daniel: I'm gonna go further and say that I don't even think that there's really non-monogamy in this. She never really comes terms with or accepts even the things around , those parameters.

Laurel: yes, that's true. So

Daniel: I'm gonna say it is none of the above and I'm gonna say it's, toxic monogamy on both ends. And so I'm going to use this as an excuse to play the theme song for monogamy.

Are you okay?

Nichole: I think also, while we might agree or disagree about the polyamory of it mm-hmm. where I think we're all pretty aligned, like monogamy. Are you okay? Lily Allen, are you okay? Yeah. Lily Allen, I think we can agree. That lemonade is just a better, I just, I was thinking about lemonade the whole fucking time.

Just there's no, oh my God. I mean, like what Beyonce, where were you

Laurel: when it dropped?

Nichole: Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Like this. I think it, and not that Lille Island was trying to do it, but I think it wanted to be, yes. It wanted to be lemonade. Yeah. It never hit there. Yeah. There's no formation. There's no grandstanding, like, you know, like beautiful opus.

Yeah. And there's no Tight rainbow of an end. Yeah. Um, I'm sorry. Lily Allen. You are? No Beyonce. According to me. USA usa. Oh my God.

Leanne: Oh my god. Feel personally attacked.