Nichole: What you doing?

Laurel: Shuffling our cow sounds stickers, ' cause it feels good. Mm. They're like a matte texture, and they rub against each other. It's nice.

Daniel: Are they all the same sticker? Yep. Okay. So it doesn't matter. We can't draw one and like tell our fortune from it or anything.

Laurel: I could.

Daniel: All right, , draw one and tell our fortune from the identical cow sound stickers.

Laurel: Ooh, yeah. Okay, you gotta pick one. Yeah. Wait, first imbue it with intention. Okay. really meditate on a question

Daniel: I've got it. Okay.

All right, here is my selected sticker.

Laurel: Oh, interesting. Oh. Have you been- Milked lately?

Nichole: I do think, babe, that you're the only person I know who pronounces it tarot instead of tarot.

Daniel: Yeah. It's something that I inherited from my mom, along with the, genetic panic.

Laurel: I, I notice you correct yourself sometimes.

Nichole: Yeah, now you say tarot I mean tarot.

Daniel: Because I want to be like the normals.

Mm-hmm, the normals who are doing tarot.

Nichole: I mean- It's pretty mainstream ...

Daniel: it's pretty mainstream now. Yeah.

Laurel: The Overton window has shifted on tarot. The Overton window?

What's the Overton window? It's, like, when, politics shift in one direction or another. Ah. So it's like, as we become more and more fascist- Mm ... our Overton window has shifted to the right.

And so- Hm ... something that is centrist now seems leftist.

Daniel: So now, in order to be, like, a truly radical witch, you actually have to cast spells that, like, kill people.

Laurel: I don't think that real witches would agree with you.

Nichole: Don't say you never learned anything from us.

Laurel: Yeah, don't say it, because I've got a lot to offer. Yeah, Laurel has a lot to offer, Daniel.

I have a lot to

Daniel: offer. Yes. Yeah. Why- Stuberts, Stuberts, stop saying that Laurel doesn't have anything to offer. Just last night you were like, "Laurel,

Laurel: you have nothing to offer."

Daniel: And you were in, the act of kneeling in front of me with a platter of fruit.

You slapped it away. You call this an offering?

Nichole: that would be the worst neg ever. Yeah. You have nothing to offer. Besides hearing you're

fired, I can't think of something worse. like your partner says you're fired? I don't- Anybody firing me.

I've never been fired, and it's really-

it's, it's really a deep-seated fear of mine.

Daniel: we- well, we should just get it over with then. So-

Nichole: You're gonna fire me from the podcast? Yeah.

Daniel: Well, better than promoting you. now you run the podcast. Sorry. Oh, shit. Yeah. So you never told us what our- Well, okay,

Laurel: what question were you meditating on?

What were we...?

Daniel (2): Well, first we should tell

Stubertz,

cow sounds is musician who sent us this wonderful album and these wonderful stickers,

Laurel: yeah, it's a sticker with three cows on it. Uh, there's a barn in the background. They're kind of like a Far Side style. That's what it reminded me of, yeah. and there's, a table with some, instruments on it,

Daniel: Is this how you do tarot readings too, is you just pull the card and then describe in minutia? You told me we had-

Nichole: That was you. You told me

Daniel: I had to describe what was on the card. No, no, no. I meant just- It's, it's recorded ... describe the context of the card.

Nichole: It's recorded.

Daniel: So what does this tell- You have nothing on.

Laurel: No, first ... Okay. Okay. We know the context. And we know what's on the card. Now tell me about the question that you asked.

Daniel: I was going to ask this card to guide us as to how we should proceed in this episode of Polyamature Hour. Oh, by the way, welcome to Polyamature Hour. I'm Laurel. I'm Nicole. I'm Daniel. And these are cow

Laurel: sounds.

Moo.

Moo.

Nichole: Moo.

Laurel: Ah. Well, okay. So, what might be a, a musical instrument in the middle also kind of looks like, almost kind of looks like a bound ream of paper that one of our cows is pointing to.

Nichole: So what does that say about Daniel?

Daniel: You wanna bind me and ream me?

Laurel: You're not the paper.

I, we have a clear sign. This cow's pointing at this stack of paper and I think it says, um, the dating industrial complex on it.

So I think it wants us to start with that. With a little monogamy, are you

Nichole: okay?

Laurel: Monogamy: Are You Okay? is a segment where we discuss examples of toxic monogamy and talk about it.

Daniel: We discuss it and talk about it.

Laurel: We discuss it and talk about it, 'cause everybody's talking about every example of bad polyamory, but nobody's talking about bad examples of monogamy, and they're out there, so listen up.

Daniel: Hmm ... I'm terrified of the dating industrial complex.

Laurel: Yeah, it's scary.

Daniel: I feel like it's, also pretty AI-fueled at this point.

Laurel: Mm-hmm. So

Daniel: I feel like it is robots telling us how to, Stay in monogamous relationships

Laurel: Oh, man. And they have every reason to sabotage our relationships, to isolate us so that we're more dependent on them

Nichole: Like, monogamous relationships are very, you know, I was gonna say thetical. I don't know if that's the opposite of antitheical. But they fit very well into capitalist, structures.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: And the dating industrial complex, is trying to force people into capitalist structures in order to further isolate us and silo us and make sure that we don't depend on our neighbors and our community, for support.

Laurel: So it's like, yeah, how to pair you off, but to feel constantly isolated and insecure even when you're in relationship with somebody. Correct. Mm.

Nichole: so this latest foray into- The dating industrial complex, comes from Relationship Headquarters- ... with Bob Grant PLC.

Daniel: Bob Grant PLC. Yes. What is a

Nichole: PLC? it is a type of counselor. okay. So he has a counseling degree-

But as we know, you can only practice counseling or therapy, like, within the designated, like, boundaries of your state, right?

Like, there are state boards that you have to go- Right, right, right. Yeah. So this person- I thought you meant, like, state of mind. No. And I was like, yeah,

Daniel: that's deep, man. Y- if you want my advice, you have to meet me in my realm. Which is why,

Laurel: psychedelic therapy is a option. Very popular now. Yeah. Like

Daniel: this, like the therapist takes the psychedelic.

And

Nichole: you're just sitting there while he's like, "

Don't you see the colors, man?" Let me get on your level.

I signed up for it. Yes. Like, I took a little quiz- Yes ... or whatever. I was immediately sent a- Yeah

ton of material. Hell yeah. Right? One of these pieces is a 52-page PDF called The Attraction Factor.

Daniel: Mm. Oh, the A Factor Tractor. A Factor Trac- the Affection Tractor? The Affection Tractor. Affection Tractor.

Nichole: Affection Tractor. Uh, four simple yet powerful principles that will melt any man's heart.

Mm. Mm, like men have hearts?

Daniel: One, liquefy his heart.

Laurel: Pop

Daniel: it

Laurel: in the microwave.

Nichole: Boil it on the stove. Replace it with a baked potato.

okay, so- I will preface this by, like, I'm not gonna read the whole 50 page- Aw. I mean, I did read the whole 52 page thing. Yeah. Um, but we'll go over the attraction factors- Yes ... that melt men's hearts.

Daniel: For audio of Nicole reading the entire 52 page PDF, could that be a Patreon?

the first person who actually, like, donates, like, $50.

Nichole: $50. Gets me reading the attraction factor. But I'll read it in my sexy smut voice. Ooh, yeah.

Yeah. " Think of a time when it seemed like all boys would turn their heads when you walked down the hall at school."

Can you remember that time? What? This is the opening? "Think of that time." For any stupids like myself- ... look to your imagination.

Yeah,

I don't remember that time. Yeah. What the fuck?

Daniel: Also, to begin at, like, fucking middle school or whatever, this is just weird. Like- Oh.

Laurel: That is true, yeah ... like,

Daniel: that's a little, that's a little creepy.

Like, picture when you were- Brr ... not legal. Hey, picture

Laurel: when you were a sexy preteen.

All right, dude.

Nichole: Okay. so attraction factor number one, the ability to be at ease.

Daniel: To be a deez nuts?

Laurel: Okay, um-

Nichole: years ago, Allan Loy McGinnis cited research to determine the strongest factor that created attraction. So I did a little Google. Allan Loy McGinnis is, like, a pastor- ... um, somewhere, and he cited research.

He didn't conduct the research, he cited the research. So who knows where the

research comes from.

Cool, cool,

cool.

Laurel: I read a tweet that was posted on Reddit.

Nichole: Exactly. I

Daniel: think that that's how you, like, filter out, like, just leaving the most accurate information, is that if it goes through three or four social media platforms, then what's left over at the end of that- Is just

Nichole: pure distilled truth.

Yes.

Ugh, if that was only true. Um- They're If there was a secret ingredient, then what was it? Most researchers concluded that someone's appearance would be the obvious choice, and it did end up ranking near the top-" "...

as well as money." "

Yet after going through the data, something strange stood out."

Oh. "One little-known quality consistently showed to have the highest correlation to being viewed as attractive." Researchers called this quality the ability to be at ease."

Laurel: This little-known qua- it's confidence. That is not a little-known quality.

Yeah.

Daniel: Maybe he had never heard of it before. Like, 'cause they phrased

Laurel: it a little

Nichole: differently?

Daniel: mean, I do like it when you lounge, Laurel.

Nichole: You find that attractive? Just

Daniel: draped over furniture in weird, configurations, just kind of like a liquid Laurel.

Laurel: Yeah I love liquid Laurel Thank you. Thank you. That's why I try to do that on all my first dates. I get there 15 minutes early, I drape myself over the table-

Nichole: So he says, basically do this by going on as many dates as possible- ... and finding each man that you go on a date with interesting.

Daniel: Wow. That sounds like hard work. It's a lot of work.

Laurel: That's, like, such an interesting tactic to gain self-confidence, is just do something until it's just so, you're completely inured and numb to

Daniel: it. I don't think, I don't think it's gaining self-confidence. I think what he kinda segued into is that you are doing this in order to appear self-confident.

Laurel: To appear at ease. Yes. You will just become confident in this one task, which is to show up for a date and pretend you're interested.

Nichole: Basically that, yes. Okay, so he says- If I can find a man interesting, I can do anything. Yep. Okay, maybe he's not so far off. You don't have to date every man you meet, but cultivating the ability- But you should try See, Laurel?

Laurel: Oh. Rude. I don't date them all. Some of them aren't interested.

Nichole: But cultivating the ability to be at ease is the most arousing behavior that men notice. Having that amazingly irresistible quality isn't something that you can turn on and off when you like.

If you want to have it on for the guy who catches your eye, then you need to have it on all the time, like it's just a part of who you are. What?

Daniel: This sounds like the opposite of being at ease. I have to w- This is so nutty ... what do I have to turn on all the time? Your confidence

Laurel: Put on your confidence thong

Nichole: and turn up Because you've chosen to find out something interesting about men instead of focusing on what's wrong, he's saying like going on these dates you have to find something interesting about the guy instead of focusing on what's wrong with the guy.

Oh, it's your fault that they're bad. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. You've gotten more comfortable with feeling uncomfortable around men.

Daniel: you are p- using him as practice for when an actually- Yeah. Yes ... when, when

Laurel: the actual interesting one- Yes ... comes along, you will be so practiced in finding the uninteresting ones interesting that you will be at ease in finding the interesting one actually interesting?

Nichole: Yes? so I've told every client of mine who would listen about my guidelines for dating

Daniel: Many did not

Nichole: listen. And they're burning in hell now. I tell them, " Let's give lots of guys a chance to audition for you.

With any one guy, let's wait to see how he acts when he's angry, not just when he's smitten." Wait.

Daniel: So you provoke him? Yeah,

Nichole: so you- So do your best to make him angry on the first date. Let's see how hard he tries when he's bored and not infatuated. we want to see how hard he tries when he doesn't feel motivated.

Daniel: Okay, so let's see how much work he puts into it when you're not putting any work into it.

Nichole: Exactly, because he says the easiest way of doing this early in a relationship, For the first three months, don't let him see you, speak with you, or hear from you as much as he would like.

Daniel: Is this like, that other thing that this industrial dating complex person was talking about with, like, the, the Zuckerberg effect or whatever?

Oh, yeah. Oh, Yeah. Yes ... end the conversation at the peak of the conversation, it was like leave the front door open, was their example.

Laurel: Yeah. If someone shows up and they, like, come to your house on a date and they leave and they leave the front door open- ... pay attention to that.

Nichole: attraction factor number three, being happy.

Daniel: why don't you smile more?

Laurel: Yeah, I love

Nichole: this. Exactly.

calls this, living in the moment And this decision to live in the moment and not let herself fall into self-pity didn't mean she pretended the evening was perfect. It simply meant that she was going to get the most out of the evening.

Which is fine. That's what Laurel does. Yeah. but this, this is where I have

Daniel: issue with this.

Nichole: So he talks about, "With her new attitude, she began to notice a change in not only how she felt, but how men began responding to her. As she became more accepting of her current circumstances, she became softer, calmer, more appealing." "It took effort to practice-" More feminine.

E- exactly.

Oof.

she didn't pretend that boring men were suddenly charming, but she became more accepting of every man that she met.

Laurel: So this is interesting because I think there are components of this that are, like, sort of good life advice, like, appreciating what you can- Mm-hmm ... in any given moment, I actually don't think that it is good dating advice because I have dated so many schmucks- Yeah ... because I am, looking at the bright side of things, and I date them for so long because I'm like, "Well..."

Yeah. " It's not that bad."

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Okay. So remember two seconds ago

Daniel: No. Who are you talking to?

Nichole: When, when Bob said, See what happens when he gets angry"?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laurel: Never make him angry.

Nichole: a man doesn't want to have to handle, manage, or tolerate a woman. It's not because he's immature or weak, it's more he simply doesn't want to have to interact with this dynamic on a daily, weekly basis. What- The short version, women tend to love drama, men not so much.

Wowee.

W-

w- If- It... Okay. Wow. When, when men think about a girlfriend they want someone who can be content on a day-to-day basis. If having your man listen to y- you share your frustrations, parentheses complaining, is the main way for you to feel better, then you're creating an intimacy killer.

Basically- Wow ... be demure. Be complacent. Be happy. Be a beep. A, a beep. Be upbeat.

Laurel: God. Men don't wanna have to deal with your bullshit- Yeah ... of existing as a complex human being. Correct. Daniel, care to comment?

Daniel: I, most of the time, really welcome the complexity. That's my shtick. you just put it in the queue And then by the time it comes up in the queue- Mm-hmm ... we're over it. And

you're like- Oh, my reaction is not quick enough- ... is what you're saying.

I mean, I am maybe not as interested in the hardships at a workplace where I do not know the names of anyone-

or, like, what a- anything actually means as far as the working structure. And so sometimes I'm like, " " practicing, like, what he's, The feigned interest ... the feigned interest, because- In the completely uninteresting women in your life. It, it's not the, women that are uninteresting.

It's , the workplace that is undecipherable.

you know, also I appreciate that you realize how difficult it is for me to track, and so you've been, you know, giving them, like, little characters. Yes. Like, like, uh, like Charlie is the one with the, the big red hair, and he's always eating peanuts.

And, uh- What

Laurel: I appreciate about this dialogue actually- I work in a circus. Yeah.

Daniel: And

Laurel: Susan is the elephant. Whoa. Whoa. It's not a comment about her weight. It's about her trunk. It's about her... Yeah. The trunk on that one. Um, no, what I appreciate about this, Daniel, is that you're really shining a light on that it's not, really a, you an issue of moral superiority in that you're uninterested in the drama.

It is a competency issue- Yeah ... and the ability to follow- Yes ... the drama. Yes.

Nichole: Yeah, so we just slow down and we cite sources. Yeah, and- Paint a picture for you.

Daniel: A literal picture with crayons.

Laurel: those, like, paint and wine nights. We take you out, but we paint our offices.

Nichole: All right.

Attraction factor number four, being curious and making eye contact.

what they don't realize, Who?

Daniel: Men?

Nichole: Most, most women.

Okay. What- Oh, well

Daniel: they, they don't realize anything.

Nichole: What they don't realize is what really creates attraction in a man's mind isn't simply your looks. It's how you respond to him when he's within three feet of you. Specifically, men have a core need to feel important and interesting.

Laurel: I had no idea. It's core need. I thought it was just, I thought it was just about my looks.

Nichole: Nope, you need to make them feel like you find them interesting and important.

I get several emails from him- Mm-hmm ... a day.

I just wanna read some of these, , subject lines- Ooh ... to these emails. Beware of the man, dot." Ooh. Ooh, good hook. "Men have fears, too." Doubt it.

Daniel: Be scared." All of these are, like, horror film- Yeah ... they're all, like, horror film teasers

Nichole: I'm looking for five women.

Me too.

Me too,

buddy.

Love makes him hunt you. Oh, my God. Hunt

is in all

caps. Oh,

no. Oh, my God. Uh, men don't fall in love through their eyes. Their

Daniel: assholes. put a finger in there. It's the only way to show you're interested. I love the fact that we have Nicole as, like, a mole in an organization now. far can you infiltrate? like- That

Nichole: requires me spending money.

Laurel: Oh. Okay, stupids, send us some money so Nicole- ... can infiltrate this organization. I want you teaching a workshop by the end of this year.

Nichole: I We keep uncovering these, industrial dating complex offerings- Yes ... services, and-

Daniel: I, I think the word you're looking for is scams.

Nichole: Y- yes. Um, and I find it terribly fascinating, because it is, like... It's capitalizing on people's deepest insecurities- Yeah ... with the patina of helping somebody. Yeah. It's like the wellness industry. Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. And, I will just continue to do my research and I'll keep reporting back on the insane shit that ends up in my inbox.

Detective Nicole.

Nichole (2): I've been

Watching

Nichole: so many PBS cozy mysteries- Ooh ... lately.

Daniel: I hope that that's actually the title of a mystery series. That's what

Nichole: they, that's what they call it.

That's, like, PBS mysteries. The genre? Yeah, the genre is cozy mysteries. Oh, wow. Aw. So, like, Miss Scarlet and the Duke, and Mademoiselle Holmes, and Astrid, and, like, all

Daniel: these other people, right? Astrid. Um- Maybe that is actually my type. It's not, like, complicated I can just start calling you, like, Cozy Mysteries.

Nichole: I'm the embodiment of a cozy mystery. Yeah. Oh my God. Doesn't matter. What does matter is that sometimes on this podcast- ... we offer practical, practical... We have people who come on- That can offer you practical- ... that can offer you practical... It's not us, but- Yeah, we gotta outsource

Daniel: that shit.

Laurel: Yes. Yes. Yeah. We do. who makes our lives happen is just everybody else that we involve in them, '

Daniel: What he's- That's the song, song ... yeah, he's, he's doing a, um- Candy, the Candy Man can. Yeah, he's

Nichole: doing a Willy Wonka song.

Daniel: I don't think that's Willy Wonka. You're- The Candy Man?

Laurel: Yes. Yes, it is. Absolutely.

Nichole: The Candy Man can?

Laurel: Candy Man can. Yeah. Yes. It's the first

Nichole: song in the movie.

Laurel: Yeah, they're all getting candy at the candy store from the Candy Man.

Daniel: Okay. Why can I only picture, oh, what's his name? Um, the Candy Man can.

What's his fucking name? The tiny Black man who's also Jewish. Sammy Davis Jr.? Yeah. Why can I only picture Sammy Davis Jr. singing The Candy Man Can?

Nichole: He probably sang it at one point. He also performed the entire soundtrack to Dr. Dolittle- Oh my God ... and released it as an album. He also was in- The tiny Jewish Black man ... the Best Number in Sweet Charity. So because he was a musical genius, probably. That's probably why.

Laurel: We had Lauren Goshay on.

Nichole: Realtor to the stars.

But yeah, yes. So Lauren Goshay is a local realtor, also friend. , she and I connected more than 10 years ago so she helped me buy my first, first place. And we've been in each other's lives ever since, and now she's helping us, the three of us, buy a house together.

Laurel: Yeah. And we're not her first polycule buying together.

Daniel: she's such a real estate slut.

Laurel: Real

Daniel: estate slut,

Laurel: Lauren Goshay. Real estate slut.

Daniel: Real estate slut. She goes all the way. Real estate slut. She's gonna help you close it. Real estate slut.

Here goes it.

Laurel: Sorry, Lauren.

Daniel: Roll

Nichole: tape.

Lauren: You know you can't shut me up.

Daniel: Good, because we are trying a new practice where we just are silent or we mime all of the questions. We mime the questions. How does that

Lauren: work for you

Daniel: guys? It's great. The Stubers love it. Yeah. We love, like, types of, performance that are really tuned for the radio.

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. Like miming.

Daniel: Yeah. Cool. Miming- ... ventriloquy.

Nichole: Ventriloquy.

Daniel: A ventriloquy is a speech that you make- ... by ventriloquism. Uh-huh.

Lauren: When the ventriloquist has died.

Daniel: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Which is what we will be doing for your funeral, Dana. Which is... And it's kind of inevitable around here. Like, I- Mm ... I can already tell they've got, like, a, a little electric chair that they've made for my dummy.

Nichole: Wonderful. Love this. It's just, I mean, I would rather just turn Peter around in a corner.

Laurel: that's creepy ... of his- That's creepier. No, I don't like that at all.

Lauren: Okay. You're wrong. That's, that's incorrect.

Nichole: Sorry, bad take.

Oh, you're absolutely right.

I was just setting myself up for- ... being haunted.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Is P- Mm ... is Peter coming with us when we all move in? Together?

Daniel: We

Nichole: need

Lauren: four bedrooms.

Nichole: Yes. This is

Laurel: the

Daniel: reason why we need so much space.

Lauren: So

Laurel: Peter can be on the complete opposite end of the house as mine and Nicole's bedrooms.

Daniel: Yeah, so that you can hear his long walk and

Lauren: the tiny- Oh.

footsteps. I hate it.

Daniel: As he, as he comes to crawl into bed with you- I hate that ... while

Lauren: you're sleeping. Thank you for haunting me forever.

Laurel: Goddammit. I would like to believe that Zoe will prevent this from happening

Lauren: Eating

Laurel: him? Yeah. Yes. Oh my God, she's gonna kill my fucking dummy? Wow. Yeah, I don't need no stinking electric chair.

Nichole: You got Zoe. I got

Laurel: Zoe.

Nichole: Ah. The electric chair of dogs.

Daniel: That's,

Laurel: that was her

Daniel: profile from the rescue. The, the sentient electric chair that can chase you.

Laurel: Oh. Speaking of houses. Speaking of haunted houses. Great segue. Great segue. Thank you. We've really mastered the segue down

Nichole: here. Oh my God. welcome Lauren. Hi. Welcome to the podcast. Um, Stuber's Lauren Goshay is realtor... I was gonna say realtor premiere.

Realtor

premiere.

I think I also called you a realtor to the stars.

If,

Lauren: if only. If only. Oh. All my clients were my stars.

Nichole: You'll

Lauren: feel like a star. Yes. That's right. As Lauren, as a realtor. You actually do. Yeah. Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah. So Lauren and I met, what? 12 years ago? Something like that. 10 years ago. Yeah. Um, when you liked a photo of mine on Instagram- ... and I took a look- Creepy vibes.

Yeah Yeah. I took a look at your, uh, profile. It said, "Foul mouth, Oregon born and raised realtor." And I was like- Nice. That's my girl. ... I might be in the market, and I was in the market. For a

foul-mouthed-

This is actually, Nicole had no intention- ...

Oregon born and raised- ... of buying anything I know. She

Lauren: was like, "Wait a second."

She was somehow... Yeah. Actually... You

Nichole: bought two properties. That's how good you are. That's right.

Um, so you and I have been, uh... We were working together, and then I think we had this, like, very official conversation over text when we decided we were friends. Mm. Oh, yes. Um, and that was a really great moment for me.

And

Daniel: because, and because she's also your real estate agent, you had to sign something, right? Where- Yes, I had to. Yeah. Friendship

Lauren: for life. Yeah. Signed in blood. An electrified dog will come after you- ... if you try to back out. Now she's

Nichole: electrified.

Daniel: I

Nichole: know. She keeps getting better. Last,

Daniel: last words. You had to get a FELOC.

Aw.

Nichole: Aw.

Daniel: A friendship equity line of credit. Oh, Lord.

Nichole (2): Aw. So Lauren, you are always the person I talk to, uh, that I come to you with my real estate questions. Mm-hmm. Um, and recently Daniel and Laurel and I have decided that we do wanna buy property together and move in together. and so we started this conversation with you- , a few months ago.

Mm-hmm.

We're moving ahead with like, look- we're getting our let- letter of pre-approval. Lots of moving pieces there. Lots of moving pieces. , And we're looking at property. I think we wanna start with this, , because this segment that we're doing is called Practical Polly.

Nichole: Oh my God, it's so good. I got, I got

Daniel: goosebumps. That's all Daniel. Oh my God. He writes all of our songs. It's so good. That, that is not all me. If I w- had done the performance, it would've been in the Tom Waits voice. Practical Polly.

Nichole: You know?

A little less appealing- Yeah. ... but fair enough. So, , What's your experience with working with polycules moving in together?

Lauren: you know, it's been ... It's interesting 'cause it's like kind of morphed over the years. Like, i- in the beginning, like, I mean, I've been doing this for almost 13 years now, so I think like when I've helped polycules, I don't even know if that was a name for it back then, to be honest. I don't either. Yeah. Like, truly I think there- Mm-hmm ... there wasn't a name for it back then.

You

Daniel: can

Lauren: just say sluts here. Yeah. The, the slutty- A group of sluts. My l- what is a group of sluts called? A gaggle. Thank you. Um- I think it's, I think it's a giggle. Yeah. Hmm. Um, when, when they would, you know, a, a giggle would come to me.

I guess, you know, I, I really treat it like any other buyer. Like, what are your specific needs? What are your specific goals?

So it just kinda depends on whatever everybody's looking for. Like, you guys are looking for something that is like all about entertainment space.

it's, it's mostly, you know, what are you looking for? What's your budget? Where are you looking? And then I tell people if they're realistic or not. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, "Sucks for you."

Daniel: So for us, it's like we need, like, three rumpus rooms for each different kind of rumpus- Yeah ... that we practice. Mm-hmm.

Lauren: Right? The, the ventriloquism- Yeah ... rumpus. Yeah. The musical rumpus. Yeah. And then, wait, what's the third kind of rumpus?

Daniel: Well, in reality, it's, like, the pod room-

Lauren: Yeah ...

Daniel: the sex room- Yeah ... and the Star Trek room. I mean, that's fair. Yeah,

Lauren: yeah. That is fair. Yeah. And n- and neither of the three shall ever meet. Whoo.

Daniel: Whoo. Ah. Are there different kinds of, like, process, like, legal considerations that you have to kind of lead people through when they are buying a house as a trio?

Lauren: I did a Instagram Live, God, it's been years ago, , with my internet friend, Hadassa, and she really helps people, like, basically get a, contract between you guys together- Mm. Which I've suggested- Yes ... you guys do. Yeah. Yeah. And I will harass you on it- Yeah ... when it c- when the time comes. And that's something you just, you do it between yourselves.

Some people get it notarized, some people don't. Some people visit it every year, some people don't. , And if it were me, I actually wish I could, whether it's married couples or friends, I wish everybody could do that because- Mm ... honestly, the way that she looks at it is she, she looks at it in three parts: how to get into it, how to stay in it, and how to get out.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I love that so much. Like, I think about that a lot because, like, whether you're married or you're buying with your sister or you're buying with your best friend or you're buying with your polycule or- Yeah ... your ventriloquism puppets, like- ... there needs to be some structure, in my opinion, because life changes.

Mm-hmm. And this isn't doing anything, this isn't giving, like, a, you know, everything's gonna fall apart or anything. Like, what happens if someone gets - disabled? Yeah. Mm-hmm, yeah. if something happens where all of a sudden someone can't like do their portion of the mortgage or whatever- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... I would love for something to be in place already- Yeah

so you're not, you know, if someone is hurt, they're not making these decisions wills tie even. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so, I think survivorship is a big thing, like if someone dies- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... what happens to your share?

Like-

Daniel: What hap- who, who eats the body? Right. Mm-hmm, yeah. Mm-hmm, yeah. Yep,

Lauren: yep. Zoe. I mean, and what share of the body do you eat? Yes. Yes. More importantly. So like if someone passes, does that mean your portion of the house goes to the other two? Does it mean it goes to your next of kin? Like that's stuff that like I want everybody to talk about now- Yes.

Daniel: Yep ...

Lauren: instead of later on. Yeah. Yeah.

Laurel: I mean, I think when you had first approached us about this idea or recommendation specifically, , I think you had sort of made the, uh, like prenup analogy- Mm-hmm

with that. Yeah. Which I think like there's so much stigma attached to like a prenup in- Yeah, mm-hmm ... marriage and- Yeah ... in monogamous marriage, and I think part of that is sort of- The t- did you guys like immediately get turned off when I

Lauren: mentioned it?

Daniel: I got turned on. Absolutely. But

Lauren: whenever

Daniel: you start talking like, you know, paperwork and technicalities- You're like, oh,

Lauren: yeah.

Laurel: Oh. Well, I think like there is something, and I'm not gonna say this is true for everybody in like non-traditional relationship structures, but There's already, especially I think for us, there's a little bit more of a practical facet involved in relationships and- Yeah

acknowledging that like it's not about like this special connection that trumps all kinds of like trust- I mean- ... and-

Lauren: To be poly takes an incredible amount of communication. Yeah. Yes. Like, like- Yeah ... way beyond what other people in just monogamous, like normie relationships.

Daniel: I mean, that's why people get into monogamous relationships is so that they only have to talk to one person.

Lauren: I mean- Honestly, as someone who's in a monogamous relationship, that's real. Yeah. I talk to so many fucking people every goddamn day. I don't wanna have to talk to more.

Laurel: But so that like, originally we were like, "Ugh." Well, it wasn't, um... It wasn't like a turn-off for me specifically, like, , I feel like that's something that I do more habitually in my relationships, is plan for when things go bad.

Oh, yeah.

Lauren: Mm-hmm. Kind of trauma. Oh, shit. Called out. Why would I know? Ask me how I know. But I

Nichole: think, but also Laurel, you have experience with this. You have learned experience- Yes. Yeah ... um, specifically with living situations. This is true. So,

Laurel: Like, I had one partner living with me, and it didn't work out well. And then as I had new partners move in with me, I created these systems that I think seem kind of crazy to people. Ooh, give me an example. They're not crazy. I wanna know. I thought

Nichole: they were so smart.

I wanna know. Tell me. So,

Laurel: um, partially, um- This is

Lauren: like gonna get... This is gonna tickle me. I'm, I, I can already tell I'm into it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Laurel: So I was like, charging an amount, like, to live with me but half of it I saved.

Lauren: Nice. Smart. Um,

Laurel: and they were like very aware of this, and I was like, "That is your money." Mm. "So when you wanna move out, you have access to this chunk of money to put down any kind of deposits you need on a new place, to help you, like, hire movers. Like, you can do-" Is that, is

Lauren: that so, like, when, when shit is changed and someone wants to move out, they're like, "Well, I can't 'cause I haven't saved up money"?

Laurel: It was partially that. Yes. Uh-huh. So you're momming them. Yes, I was hardcore momming. You're forcing

Daniel: them to save money. Yeah, I was forcing- Yeah ... them to save

Laurel: money, but it was also like, "So you never feel stuck here." Mm-hmm. "So you never feel like you're under my thumb because I'm giving you a good deal." Yeah. ", So it is, like, a weird paradox of being mommy and also being like, "You can leave me whenever you want."

Mm-hmm.

Daniel: It's like a financial emergency ejection- Yeah ... l- you know, lever- Yeah.

Yeah ... that they can just pull and pew. Yeah. Yeah. Parachute.

Nichole: Pew. I mean, when you first mentioned this, coming up with a contract between the three of us- Mm-hmm ... I immediately thought like, yeah, we're perfectly suited for this. Yeah. Like, we're perfectly suited to navigate that kind of conversation- Yeah

not just because of, like, the polyamory piece, but just of our practical experience- Mm-hmm ... of, like, owning property and renting out to other people. Totally. Um, or being renters ourselves, like-

Daniel: I, I'm glad that you're including me in this. I thought for a minute that you were just talking to Laurel. That you and her are ideally-

Nichole: I mean- All right.

All right. You know what? You know what? No, no, no,

Daniel: We each have our, like, romantic relationships, like me and Laurel and me and you. Uh-huh. You and Laurel need something together. Spreadsheets. So generous. You've got- So generous.

Lauren: So have you guys talked more about that since I brought it up, of, of, like, something that-

Laurel: No, because it wasn't the exciting, fun part.

Lauren: Yeah. We were just dazzled by real estate listings.

I know. I'm always bringing it down. I'm like- No ... that's me all the time. I'm like, I, I laugh that I call myself the dream crusher. I'm like, "Okay, let's talk about the practicalities- ... of the, of this." Yes. So yeah. You're like, "I know."

Daniel: We should probably start thinking about a trust Like- I don't think that's a bad idea at all.

Lauren: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Like, I actually don't have a will right now.

Nichole: Ah. You have

Daniel: also

Nichole: got

Daniel: us...

Nichole: gotten on us about that.

Lauren: I fucking have- Yeah, you have ... and I fucking will. Yeah. it's weird. Once you do it, you feel, like, this big relief.

Nichole: We should Fell Swoop this. We should get- Yes ... contracts. Yes. Yes. , Trust, advance directive, living wills. Yes. Mm, mm-hmm. 100%.

Laurel: Eh? Eh? All right. Let's invite a lawyer over for an afternoon. Let's, let's make it sexy.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Ooh. Ooh. Do we know any

Lauren: lawyers? Send us a,

Daniel: send, send us a lawyer, Lauren. 'Cause- I

Lauren: don't have any sexy lawyers, unfortunately.

Daniel: Mm. Oh. Ooh, I do. Oh. I mean, are- But are they

Lauren: an estate lawyer? Because- No. Oh, yeah. Are they on, are, are they on

Nichole: TV?

Daniel: Well, that's right. Yeah. Are they... Are

Lauren: we talking about-

Daniel: was it James Spader?

Lauren: James Spader. That's pretty sexy. When was he a lawyer? Yeah, I'm trying to think. On, um, what was it- He was a, he

Daniel: was a lawyer in Secretary. Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. Oh.

Nichole: With Maggie Gyllenhaal. Oh, that. Yeah. Yeah. I just mentioned TV, and I was like, "I don't think he was a lawyer in Blacklist."

Yeah, I know. No, no, no. He was on- That's different ...

Daniel: he was a lawyer in one of those, um- I forgot about Secretary ... l- legal TV shows, too. Like, was it fucking Sacramento Legal? I don't know.

Nichole: Sacramento

Lauren: Legal. Yes, famously. Legal.

Nichole: It only takes place indoors because it's 113 degrees

Lauren: outside. And, like, in a basement.

Yep. A sad

Daniel: basement. Oh my God.

Lauren: So in, like, the actual house that you're looking for, I feel like it's changed a little bit. Mm.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Lauren: Cause it was like, everybody have their own little thing-ish.

Nichole: since we've been looking at properties- Mm-hmm ... we've gotten a little bit more zeroed in on what we're looking for. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, Laurel made a grid the other day- We love it. ... that, um, maps out wants, needs, and meh. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um- And

Daniel: the areas of the house that I'm allowed in. Right.

Uh-huh.

Nichole: Yeah. Um, and- I wrote down, like, some ideals. Mm-hmm. Right? I think just, like, really practically looking at layout. Mm-hmm. We're looking at, um, three comparable bedrooms. Mm-hmm. I would love for Laurel to have the primary bedroom 'cause it's gonna be bigger, and she's willing to work in her bedroom.

Yeah.

Daniel: I think that's the biggest change, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Is that- Yeah ... is that we're... What we saw when we started looking at all these houses- Yeah ... is there were a lot of options with pretty disparate sized bedrooms. Yes, very much so.

Lauren: When you guys were like, "We want everything to be equal," and I was like, "Oh, God. That's gonna be fucking hard." Oh, yeah. Because that's just not how- Yeah ... houses are and were built. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So,

Daniel: like, if one bedroom is much bigger, then we subdivide that one into an office. Maybe there's another room that's, like, next to a smaller room.

Mm-hmm. Maybe we knock down the wall between them- Yeah ... and we, like, create a larger one. Mm-hmm. Or that becomes, like, room office. It's more, like, looking macro at the- Yeah ... entire floor plan of the house- Mm-hmm ... and being like, is there enough space and utility space that's laid out in a practical enough way that we can make it work?

Yeah. Plus the three rumpus, uh- Three rumpus rooms. And

Lauren: that could be, like, extra bedroom, you're talking about a big fucking house. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So each of you have a bedroom. Mm-hmm. Primary suite is like rumpus space one.

Daniel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But you

Lauren: still need an- you still need two more offices though.

Daniel: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, laurel is willing to, like, if she has, um, you know, a sizable room she can office in her room. Yeah. We were also talking about, like, me and Laurel are comfortable sharing office space so that we can play footsie under the desks.

Adorable. Yes. Mm-hmm. and we were imagining, like, the pod room can also double as the sex dungeon, and that, those can both- That's true ... that can, that can both be in the basement. Would that

Lauren: be like a turn-off to be like, "There's my desk over there"?

Daniel: wait,

Lauren: uh, the pod

Daniel: room- So the podcast, the podcast room is separate from the office though. The, the answer is no.

Lauren: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Got it.

Daniel: Yeah.

Lauren: Okay. Yeah. Have

Daniel: you seen Secretary? Fair. We've

Lauren: discussed this. Super fair. Yeah. I was so obsessed with that show, that movie when it came out.

Laurel: Yeah. God damn. I watched it recently.

Nichole: It holds up. Does it? It really does, actually. 'Cause it holds its grade,

Lauren: You should make a... You should make like... start making a, a note of like things that hold up and things that don't, or like things that hold up with a- Mm

small caveat.

Daniel: you should make a spreadsheet about like various Spaders, you know? Mm-hmm. And their, and their attraction levels, like- The

Nichole: Spaderverse?

Daniel: Yes. The Spaderverse.

Lauren: I am now going to definitely write a blog about, um, buying as a polycule, though.

Yeah. Yeah. So- Yeah ... it's gonna be great. Hell yeah. Yeah. Love that.

Daniel: and then we can be featured in your blog and can be like, "If you want completely impractical advice-

listen to this fucking podcast."

Laurel: Oh, I'll... It'll be- We- It'll be linked, of course. Can we be your weird stock photography? Like, instead of, like- Yes ... Googling, like- As polycule ... and it's, like, three people holding hands. Yes. We'll take a picture of us in the park. Please.

Daniel: Like, okay, it, it starts, like, just, like, normal stock photography, but just a little wooden and a little creepy.

Like, "Hi." Like, "I'm eating za salad. Oh, I'm typing on a computer and laughing."

Lauren: And then- I just, I actually just had a, an image of, like, Laurel typing on a computer and then, like, Daniel with his arms around also typing on a computer. And then Nicole behind Laurel, or Nicole behind Daniel with her, like... So all three hands are typing on the computer.

Yes. Yes. Is that... That's how you polycule, right? Yeah, that's how you polycule. Yes, that's how you polycule. Great. Wonderful. Oh, wonderful. Yes. Great, great, great, great.

Daniel: Nailed it. I think that- ... that's, that's the matryoshka polycule. It's a very specific type. But I feel like that's, like, picture three.

I feel like we start, like, like- Yeah, you gotta ease into that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the last- It's too sexy ... and then the last one, like, you got Peter there. No. Peter is

Lauren: not going on my fucking blog, Daniel. Stop trying to get P- make Peter cool.

Nichole: Yeah,

Well, that was a great segment.

Daniel: Oh, my God. I cannot believe the thing that she said About you, Laurel? I mean, that was,

Laurel: That was really eye-opening for me.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: and I feel like I understand myself and all of us better.

Daniel: I'm never going to look at my feet the same way again.

Laurel: I never look at your feet the same way twice.

Daniel: And I, I just want all you to know that this is our genuine reaction to this segment, and definitely not something that we recorded beforehand,

Nichole: Mm. Like, if you are in the Portland area, you're thinking about, , buying for the first time, buying for the 700th time, reach out to Lauren Gauchay.

Daniel: Mm-hmm. If you're buying for the 700th time, she's really honest and she'll probably tell you you have a problem. Y- you need to fucking cool it.

Oh. So

Laurel: what's next? Speaking of cooling it, we've got something

Daniel: coming in hot. Oh, I thought you were gonna say we've got something about amphibians who live in clammy environments.

Laurel: What do they call it? A seep? What? A seep? The seep where the frogs live. What? Ooh. They have a seep. Oh, that's so cute. Yeah. It's a place, uh, like the male carves out his little territory, and it's called a seep.

Daniel: He's seepy in his seep.

Nichole: Anyways, this is an Animal Magnetism.

Daniel: It sure is, Nicole.

Animal Magnetism is the segment where we look deep into the seep- ... to find animals that hop and creep, Laurel, you are the keeper of the frog knowledge as usual, I think.

Laurel: Yeah.

This is an article in Popular Science, headline says, "Long-term polyamory seems to work just fine for these frogs."

The male rainforest frog, Thoropa taura, is the first amphibian known to be faithful to several ladies.

Nichole: Shut up. Did they really say ladies? Yes. Oh, God. They really said ladies.

Laurel: they stake out their territory, then the ladies come to visit- Mm-hmm ... and, like, lay eggs and shit. But they found out through some, like, genetic testing and whatnot that, , there were eggs from multiple ladies- Yes ... there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. , and that he, he kept them, at times, not always, but at times kept them from cannibalizing each other's eggs.

Aw. Aw. Yeah. Yeah. But sometimes a little snack. Like, everyone gets a little snack. Ooh.

So do

Nichole: other frogs just mate with one other frog during the mating season? Yes. But they're not, like, committed.

Daniel: That's most, most frogs. Some frogs mate with pigs.

Yeah. Um, they do say that, that, um, it was typical that there would be one female at the top of the pecking order. Okay.

Frogs peck?

Laurel: though they don't really give a lot of detail about what that looks like.

Okay ... there's not a lot of, like-

Daniel: Meat on this frog? Yeah.

Laurel: I'm wondering if they know what polyamory means. uh, it means just letting people keep their eggs in your seep.

Daniel: Right. Okay. It means not putting all your eggs in one seep.

Nichole: But the ladies do put all their eggs in one seep. It's just multiple ladies per one seep. Yeah ...

Daniel: that we know of

Nichole: That, uh, y- these scientists have shared with us

Daniel: Yeah. I mean, they're probably filtering out, you know, the, the dynamic sex lives of the roving female frogs Mm-hmm.

Laurel: The, like, dearth of information in this makes me think that maybe these women-

frogs- These women These ladies, if you will, could possibly be laying their eggs in other seeps. Yeah. And they're just not paying attention to that. Like, that's what so much, like, sort of, like, like anthropological or, like, zoological studies are just, like, people, like, that just cannot even conceive of looking outside of their preconceived norms- Yeah

to even bother to question if things outside of

Nichole: their norms are happening. we come across this in animal magnetism with several articles, like anthropomorphizing the animals. Mm-hmm. Right? And attributing characteristics to them. And the m- the slapping on of polyamory to me is like, and calling them lady frogs.

Like, it just feels like it's... Is this a Vice article?

Daniel: I'm gonna stand by the anthropomorphization of these animals in these contexts- Okay ... because I think this is the PR that we really need. Mm-hmm. You know?

Like, like Ify was saying, right, like, we do pretty shitty job with marketing polyamory in most cases. Okay. But I think that, like, animal facts, I think honestly all the fucking gay penguins did so much for- Oh my God ... for public queerness. Like, people were like, "Oh, gay penguins." And, like, I guarantee you a lot of those people who were just, like, gushing over- Mm-hmm

the threagle in our inaugural animal magnetism segment-

Nichole: Yeah ...

Daniel: you know, they were probably not gonna be so open to the idea of humans doing that until they, they, as birdwatchers- Yeah ... they're like, "Well, if the birds are doing it, bees are doing it. How about you get on your knees and doing it?"

Oh my God.

Laurel: They're pretty insistent on This lone male narrative- ... which I'm like I don't know.

Like-

Daniel: He's alone That sounds- He's a lone wolf ... like have you seen the Zapruder

Laurel: films? I

Nichole: was gonna Yes. That's exactly where I was going. I was like, "Where is the grassy knoll?"

Daniel: Oh my God. Are you saying that there's a second shooter?

Laurel: Ugh. Which I think speaking of your, the polyamory ad- advertising PR that we need- Mm-hmm ... there was backlash to this. What?

Daniel: Yes. So the funniest part of this is actually the article that I found first-

Nichole: Mm-hmm ...

Daniel: the response, the vehement protest from- ... answersingenesis.org. Oh,

Nichole: no.

Daniel: which I think begs the question, is this a little, Monogamy Are You Okay?, Animal Edition?

Remix. So this article that is the reply is titled Polyamory in Frogs: An Example for Humans to Follow?

Last summer I wrote a blog about so-called gender fluid tomatoes.

You did? These were Australian tomatoes that have a strange reproductive strategy that some were saying showed that the sexual binary of male and female is a fallacy, which is an utterly ridiculous argument.

Laurel: Listener, also just know that there are scare quotes littered throughout this. Oh my God.

Daniel: Well, now it's frogs making the news for their reproductive strategy with the headline Long-term Polyamory Seems to Work Just Fine for These Frogs." '

Cause it does.

Now unlike the tomato study, he says, I don't see either study's authors or the Popular Science article's authors explicitly argue that so-called polyamorous frogs have anything to do with the morality of such relationships among humans.

But the key word in my previous sentence is explicitly. If you read a little between the lines in this article, the Popular Science author's choice of clever wording, euphemisms, and figures of speech is subtly making a point. Maybe these frogs aren't so different from us. Terms like polyamory aren't routinely applied to the animal kingdom.

They are used for human relationships. by appropriating that term for these frogs, the author is oh so subtly suggesting that polyamory is natural. After all, animals do it,

Nichole: I know that, like, two minutes ago I was like, "Why are they anthropomorphizing these frogs?"

And this guy's, like,

kind of rehashing my argument, but for the wrong reasons. For the wrong reasons. I don't agree with him.

Daniel: only humans were created in God's image. Human beings, not animals, are sinners. Okay. After all, God gave the first human, Adam, an instruction which he disobeyed, Genesis 3. Is this entire website all about Genesis?

Laurel: Yeah,

Daniel: it

Laurel: is.

Daniel: Only humans are instructed that marriage is one man and one woman.

Only humans are told that adultery, fornication, and homosexuality behaviors, are sin. O- okay. But of course- For those who believe in evolution , humans are just another animal and related to all animals, and even plants. They want you to believe that you're a plant.

That you're just a hungry, horny little plant. A little trans tomato.

To use frogs to justify polyamory is actually being consistent for those holding the religion of evolutionary naturalism. But from a Christian perspective, it's absurd.

Laurel: It's so wild, to paint evolution as a religion as if you're making a dig at the, like, absurdity of it, while exalting your magic religion- Yeah

There's no argument 'cause his argument is just, "God said so."

And you know what?

Daniel: For me Frog is my co-pilot.

Laurel: Polyamorous frog is my co-pilot. Ken Ham, I don't know who Ken Ham is, but I wanna, I just want a whole campaign against his bad takes on polyamorous frogs.

,

I wanna create, like, a fake, like, science website where we make up, like, natural things- Uh-huh ... that are, like, gay or trans or polyamorous, and then see if we can get him to write take-down articles of our fake articles. Penguins have been using poppers for 1,000 years. Yes,