Nichole: Isn't that a scary sound from something? Yes. Oh, what is it from? Is that from-

Is that The Babadook? Maybe it is. Ba-ba- Or is it The Grudge? ... ooh. The Grudge. That, that doesn't sound the same. I'm

Daniel: the one I

want to

go. Okay.

Me and Laura went to a comedy show in the park the other day.

Nichole: Uh-huh. We did.

How was it?

Daniel: It was weird. Mm. it was a, it was good comedy.

Nichole: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Daniel: It was a Juneteenth celebration.

Nichole: Okay.

Daniel: So free comedy in the park. But it was an audience of 80 to 90% white people-

Nichole: Yeah ...

Daniel: for Juneteenth.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: And because they were outdoors, because these white people were off leash-

Nichole: Mm-hmm ...

Daniel: it was, like, okay for them, they thought, to just talk constantly amongst-

Nichole: I can't. I can't ...

Daniel: themselves. I

Nichole: can't- Yeah ... stand that. Yeah.

Daniel: it's like, okay, you're going there for a Juneteenth thing, right? Yeah. You're gonna see all Black comics.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: And then you're not going to actually listen to them. It was like playing out before us in real time the most performative fucking, anti-racism that you could possibly imagine because they're like, "Oh, it's enough that I, that I come here." Showed up.

Nichole: Yeah. "

Daniel: I'm like a body, and now I'm just going to actively ignore people who are trying to perform."

Laurel: the two women who were right behind us-

Daniel: Yeah ...

Laurel: were literally just chit-chatting the entire time, the entire time. About what? I don't know. I was trying so hard to tune them out. And then at the end of it, they stood up and started taking, like, videos of, like, the crowd and the whole scene and everything.

Oh, my God. And they, every time they just panned back around to me I was just standing there Looking absolutely miserable. Yes. You ruined that TikTok.

Daniel: I feel like among the audience, at least I, and I think Laurel too, experienced this show the way that it should've been experienced for white people.

Not just because we were paying attention, but because we felt the, unfelt guilt of everybody else. Everybody else. Like, I felt just complete- ... shame for the behavior of these, this, this sea of ivory.

Wow.

Nichole: Yeah. It doesn't surprise me. I wish it did.

Daniel: Very little surprises me about how awful people are anymore.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What is it? Like, it's always, like shocked but not surprised, which isn't quite the right language, I get disappointed but not surprised.

Yeah. Furious but not surprised.

Daniel: See,

Nichole: I was disappointed in that Furiosa movie. But not... But, and surprised that I was. ' was such a bag of shit, And then at the end they show you clips from Mad Max: Fury Road- Mm-hmm Oh, yeah ... as if to say, " Hey, remember this really good movie you just wasted the last two and a half hours of your life?"

I don't remember hating it,

Daniel: I also don't remember it.

Nichole: Yeah, I don't either.

Daniel: It went down like a Marvel movie, in that I just went into a fugue state-

Nichole: Well, remember when you and I saw the last Star Wars movie?

Daniel: Oh,

Nichole: yeah. Mm. And we literally turned to each other-

Daniel: Yeah

Nichole: after it was done and said, "What just happened?" I didn't track any of that.

Daniel: Yeah. goose of, like, just content consumption and- Too

Nichole: soon. And then- Too

Daniel: soon. And then afterwards I was like, "Okay, I'm ready to die."

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Kill me and take out my Star Wars liver.

Nichole: Foie gras goose. Foie gras goose. Sorry.

Daniel: Is this a song that your French grandma- ... used to sing to you?

Nichole: No. You know the French children's songs.

Daniel: Uh, oh yeah. let's see.

Nichole: Alouette, gentille Alouette. Alouette, je te plumerai.

Daniel: I was part of the resistance, really just take my word. that one of them?

Nichole: really just take my word.

Daniel: Uh...

Nichole: Welcome to PolyAmateur Hour.

Daniel: I'm Daniel.

Nichole: I'm Laurel. I'm Nicole.

Daniel: That one was, like, a, a really smooth hacky sack of an introduction, right?

Nichole: A smooth hacky sack? That's disgusting.

Daniel: I don't mean that the, the hacky, like a... The hacky sack itself is physically smooth. Is that what you're-

Nichole: No, now, now I'm envisioning it's, like, that thin rubber- ... but it's filled with the beans.

It's like a smooth hacky sack.

Daniel: O- Okay. I-

Nichole: And it's absolutely flushed out- ... like beige.

Daniel: I'm sorry. I should've gerunded that. It was a, it was a smooth hacky sacking.

Nichole: No.

Daniel: No. I'm gonna make it worse every time.

Nichole: Yeah, you are. Okay, but it's, like, beige and like... Because it falls on the ground, it collects the hair. Oh, no. And like, it gets so gross so easily. No.

Daniel: Wait. should it

look like a scrotum with some testicles in it? like, just balls unattached?

Nichole: Is this, is this our new piece of merch? Is this our 90th piece of merch? Buy our smooth hacky sack.

Your sack with the horse

Wow. It's, it's beige.

It will sail through the air. Sick of all that resistance that comes with your- ... lumpy hacky sack?

Daniel: do we put, like, a speaker, like, in it, a tiny little speaker so that every time you, like, kick it, it screams? "Ow!"

Nichole: now picture Freddie Prinze Jr.

Daniel: What? What, what does Freddie Prinze Jr. have to do with it?

Nichole: In, in She's All That.

Daniel: Uh-huh. Oh, you fucking millennials. All right.

Nichole: Now you're gonna have to go- Hack, ow,

ee.

now you're gonna have to find that YouTube clip of that scene- ... and you're gonna have to add, is this gonna be funny to

Daniel: anyone else? Not to Freddie Prinze Jr.

Nichole: Let's, let's send it to him when we're done and see what happens. Maybe we make, we get a prototype of our smooth- I bet he receives hacky sacks all the time.

know. What a callback. Speaking of gifts-

Daniel: Wait, were we speaking of gifts?

Nichole: Yeah, we were gonna gift- Yeah ... Freddie Prinze Jr. our episode. Oh. Back.

Daniel: Uh-huh. Yeah?

Nichole: I just wanna go into a very quick Crazy Sexy Poly.

if I may.

Daniel: You may. You may.

Nichole: again, Crazy Sexy Poly is the segment where we talk about things that are not necessarily crazy or sexy, but they're definitely poly.

Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: Definitely.

I can't think of anything more antithetical to crazy and sexy than having surgery and needing to recover from it.

Daniel: Yes.

Nichole: Mm-hmm. 'Cause I was- Unless it- ... not crazy and I was not sexy. Yeah, yeah. I- Unless it was, like, a sex injury.

Which it wasn't.

Daniel: And we're maintaining that. That is, that is the official position-

Nichole: Actually ... of

Daniel: Polingly.

Nichole: Oh, that's right. Actually. That's right. Actually. Yeah. Yeah. This did all begin. It did.

so I just wanted to express my gratitude because people fucking showed up.

Daniel: Yes.

Nichole: I had some friends show up, which was great. but then people from our wider polycule- Mm-hmm ... showed up. Mm-hmm. And, like, a partner of mine showed up. you know, it was- Yeah ... it, it was incredible. Like, I really, I needed so much help just to, like, get around the house.

I couldn't lift things. Yeah. there were a f- quite a few days when I needed help getting up off the couch and laying down to sleep. Mm-hmm.

Daniel: you know, your partner, came over and- the first night that I was able to go and spend with Laurel- Mm-hmm ... after you were back, and I wouldn't have been able to do that if he hadn't been there and been like- Yeah

"I am going to move her from couch to bed and tuck her in and put her to sleep." Mm.

Nichole: I know. Aw. I know. He, he, he trussed me. Aw. The motion- We might, we might have to cut this. But he was, like, struggling to get the nightgown over me. He's like, "Oh, your tits are just too big."

Daniel: Such a burden you bear.

Nichole: Quite. Um, but yeah, I mean, people showed up and played Scrabble with me. Mm-hmm. Everyone brought me snacks. Snacks are important. So many snacks. Flowers.

So that's it ... that's lovely I just wanted to, you know, share a one of the benefits of polyamory- Mm-hmm

and, you know, by virtue also, like, because polyamory takes so much communication and strong commitment to people, and, showing up and, and, knowing how to invest in relationships, I had a lot of friends also show up too. Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm invested in those relationships and I know from my practice in polyamory how to, maintain those friendships.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it all feeds into itself- Yeah ... like a, like a beautiful ouroboros.

Daniel: I'm really grateful that your recovery went so smoothly, like a hacky sack.

No, seriously, I am really grateful that, three weeks later you're, back to doing your, your usual, high intensity strength training in the basement. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Nichole: Yeah. I'm actually incredibly grateful for that. Like, it makes such a difference for me.

Daniel: I, I'm able to bounce quarters off your butt.

Nichole: Nice. Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah. It's... I- I'm in the middle of an exercise routine. I don't know why you have to do it right then, but-

Are you like, like hiding behind the doorway while you're doing it too?

Daniel: trying to make it more challenging for Nicole. Like, it's also a, like a obstacle course.

Nichole: Or like I'm a carnival game.

You win a goldfish at the end. Ah.

Daniel: Baby, you're a carnival ride.

Nichole: Aw, thanks. This is beautiful. I guess speaking of, husbands talking to wives

we have a, uh... Monogamy, are you okay?

Daniel: I think we might.

Nichole: Yeah, daniel found this one. Yeah, where did it-

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: I feel like it usually it's- Yeah, you- ... Laurel or I.

Yeah.

Daniel: You know, I was just sitting around, and I was thinking about how all these other dating industrial complex things that we've been coming in contact with have been aimed at women And I was like, "Nobody's thinking about the men."

Nichole: Uh-huh.

Daniel: So, I wanted to see what kind of evil toxic shit, they were targeting men with.

Nichole: Great. What did you google? Man keep woman.

Daniel: How to... I started by-

Nichole: How to hang on to your female.

Daniel: By the, by the hair.

initially I , how to keep wife from cheating. ' I didn't really get a return on that, but what I did get is how to win your wife back.

Nichole: Yeah. How to win your wife back. Okay.

Daniel: And this is specifically targeted to men who, feel like their marriages are on the skids.

Nichole: Okay.

Daniel: and they need help from Josh Hudson-

Nichole: Uh-huh ...

Daniel: who, if you go through his YouTube videos, you can see him developing a very creepy mustache over time.

Nichole: Great.

Daniel: Oh, man. I'd like us to assess the mustache at some point, but first I guess we should talk about his content.

Nichole: Okay

Daniel: it starts out basically with him trying to, like, bond with you. Mm-hmm. Like, it's a video, and he's like, he's, like, talking to you, bro. And he's like, " you fix the broken door, and you bring home the bacon.

Yeah.

Nichole: And-

Daniel: You play with the kids more often.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Ugh. You tolerate your children. So it's basically like he starts off the whole thing by, like, leaning in and, like, making eye contact and being like, " Bitches, am I right?"

Ugh.

Nichole: Uh-huh.

Daniel: then, commences to kind of take you on this journey of what I would describe as, like, the Tim Allen school of psychotherapy. Yeah.

Daniel: so he, he uses metaphors to explain relationship dynamics to you,

and they're exclusively, like, home improvement related '

Nichole: Cause that's all that you do, right? Yeah. Like, you go around the house s- fixing things and doing the dishes, and I'm still not appreciative.

Daniel: Yes.

Nichole: Right?

Daniel: Because you are a leak behind the wall- I've just been patching holes in the wall, and then the leak comes out in a different place.

Nichole: Right. Right, right, right,

Daniel: right. Yeah.

Nichole: What's my emotion leak? Not specific to me- ... but what is womanhood's emotion leak?

Daniel: I mean, he says things that I think are true of women, but they're also true of everyone.

Nichole: What?

Daniel: That you wanna be heard.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: But he says it like it's this like, " Oh my God," this is a completely different mode of operation psychologically for men. Yeah, yeah. Like, they actually want you to listen.

Nichole: If the men who bought into this program were any smarter, they would also be offended by it.

Mm-hmm. I mean, the way that he talks, even the beginning that you were talking about, Daniel, where he goes like, " You work so hard every day, and you give it your all, and she's still not satisfied with you." it is so over the top-

Daniel: Yeah

Nichole: that it is like someone talking to a baby.

Daniel: Yes.

Laurel (2): Finally, it gets to a place where he's like, okay, but hard pill to swallow here, gentlemen, but we're gonna do it.

Daniel: Yeah. the way that he's ta- talked about this, reminded me so much of, the outdated, discredited dog training techniques- ... remember, Cesar the Dog Whisperer?

Laurel (2): Yes.

Daniel: Yes. Yeah. So it was, it's all this, like, totally unscientifically grounded thoughts about being the alpha so that your dog can't relax unless your dog knows that you're in charge.

Nichole: Uh-huh.

Daniel: And this is the way that he was talking about women, which is like hilarious because the problem that he's actually talking about, that a lot of women in heterosexual relationships come to with men like his audience that he's speaking to, is that they don't actually like take initiative to help out around the house or help out with the kids- Uh-huh

Nichole: or plan dates. And so, and they're not, so they're not being an equal participant in the household life- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... and in the relationship. and he's couching this, like, "You gotta alpha her. you gotta like make the decisions and show her." Wait, but didn't he front-load the video saying like, "You're doing all of these things and she's still not appreciative"?

Yes. Yes. And that's why I think that this guy knows what he's doing a little bit. Uh-huh. Like I think he is just, taking a demographic that is very gullible- Mm-hmm ... that is like very, pliable and easy to manipulate, and manipulating them into change.

By catering to their ego.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: That's the hook- Yeah ... of like, oh, a guy is gonna relate to this- Mm-hmm ... And then he

Nichole: like

Laurel: wiggles in the, " Actually, you need to change and show up," but he's couching it as

Nichole: like, "

Laurel: Be a man,

Nichole: like

Laurel: be a leader, be an alpha dude."

Nichole (2): Wait, what are the credentials of this guy?

Daniel: He is a therapist.

Nichole: Okay. All right.

What does he say about these people going to therapy?

his thing is like, oh, like, couples therapy, like marriage counseling doesn't work, and it's because you have to go and sit there and process emotions. Okay. But I'm gonna tell you, like, you don't have to do that shit with your wife.

I'm just gonna sit here with you one on one and, like, mansplain it to your man brain- Wow ...

Daniel: Now I would like you to look at the mustache

Nichole: Ugh. Aah!

Daniel: Okay. Please- Yeah. No,

Nichole: no, no ...

Daniel: please describe this mustache.

Nichole: It's like two rats kissing. That's r-

Daniel: that's really good.

Nichole: And I don't appreciate the smirk underneath.

Is he married?

Daniel: That piece of information is not in this. Maybe he's doing all of this-

Nichole: To get her back ...

Daniel: to get her back.

Nichole: Oh my God He, so his banner at the top, says, "Save your marriage."

And he, maybe he printed it out on his little inkjet printer, and he crosses out Y, and he just goes up to her and goes, "Save our marriage." Aw. "Do

Daniel: So, moving on quickly because I need to put this fucking mustache in the rear view. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have a wonderful guest on the episode today.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Mm. we have Genevieve of Chill Polyamory.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Woo! when we- ... Were creating this podcast, we were like, "Okay, who out there in the polyamory coaching education content space fits with our vibe?"

And Laurel, you were like, "Chill Polyamory."

Nichole: Chill Polyamory. Absolutely. They're so chill. And poly.

Daniel: And amory.

Nichole: And amorous.

Daniel: One can hope.

Nichole: I know, I'm making assumptions.

Daniel: So, shall we?

Nichole: Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it.

Daniel: Drum roll.

Nichole: Can it be bongos this time?

Nichole (2): maybe move that camera ... Yeah. Just like that? Just a little- There we go. Yeah. Thank you

Nichole: Just so we get everybody. Yeah. But maybe not, like, the ceiling.

That's perfect ...

Daniel: we have a lovely ceiling. You- I don't know what you're talking about ...

Laurel: you Zoom like a Gen X-er.

Nichole: What does that mean?

Laurel: I'm gonna say you z- almost Boomer Zoom.

Daniel: Wow.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Wow.

Laurel: It's, like, 30% ceiling.

Your head is, like, kind of in the corner.

Daniel: If, if I was Zooming like a Boomer, I would be Skyping. Thank you.

Genevieve: Yeah. It gets the job done.

Laurel: Yeah. It does. I know you're there. It's lovely.

Nichole (2): How are you

doing,

Genevieve: I'm doing well today.

Berlin is rad. I've been here six years.

Daniel: have you Found that they've been very, uh, accepting of you, you know, as hailing from a fascist state currently?

Genevieve: I mean, Germany didn't necessarily heal 100%. Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Genevieve: Berlin is great. What I do like about it is their immigration process.

They're like, "Here are the things you do. You do the things, you get what you need." Yeah. Yeah. Right? It's just a, it's just a process. There's no, like, you know, bait-and-switch, underhanded- Mm-hmm ... you know, shit- Mm-hmm ... that the US does. So it feels very calming to be like, "Oh, there's a list of things. I brought the list of things, now I get a visa," you know?

Nichole: Yeah. Oh, that sounds so great. Right? It sounds so ideal, with everything- Oh ... really.

Genevieve: Yeah.

Daniel: The positive side of German organizational skills- Yes ... at the forefront.

Genevieve: Yeah.

Nichole: It just really soothes my autistic brain-

Daniel: Yeah ...

Nichole: to be like- Mm ... okay, there's a list of things that I need to do, and I'm just gonna do them, and then I get the result that I want.

Great.

Laurel: Yeah.

Genevieve: Agree. Same.

Nichole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's

Genevieve: lovely here if y'all ever wanna visit. I hope longer term I can Ooh ... be able to welcome more people. but in the short term I'll have, like, you know, space for parties and stuff if you ever visit.

Laurel: Magical.

Genevieve: Thank you.

Daniel: That is

Laurel: so

Genevieve: lovely. Yeah.

Daniel: you've been, one of the people that we've wanted on our podcast- Yeah. Mm-hmm ... since the very beginning.

Genevieve: Oh, cool.

How long Have y'all been doing this?

Daniel: Coming up on two years. Coming

Laurel: up on two years.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah, close. Time does fly.

Genevieve: Hmm.

Laurel: when I was, early crawling into, like, polyamory and then discovering that there were actually, content creators and people- Mm ... out in the world talking about stuff, it's in your handle, it's, like, Chill Polyamory, there's like an attitude and way that you carry yourself that is just, fun and relaxed like a softer side that wasn't all just like education, education, education kind of thing.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. yeah, that just felt a little bit more like natural and human about it, rather than- Mm-hmm ... okay, we're gonna sit and be academic and learn all of the, psychological vocabulary I appreciate the humanity that you bring to your content. Mm.

Genevieve: Thank you.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah. And that's not to say- Thank you ... that you're not still educational. it's like, it's, it's, um, it's that you're- I try

you're like the fun teacher, you know?

Genevieve: I'm like, " Y'all can smoke in here."

Daniel: Like

Genevieve: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or whatever. Yeah.

Nichole: So

Nichole (2): this segment that we're doing is called Practical Polly.

Nichole: can you tell us a little bit about how you got here? I guess, like a little bit about- Yeah ... your polyamory journey, but also just a little bit about, how you started creating content.

Genevieve: Sure. I'll see if I can put it in a little nutshell, 'cause I'm 14 years polyamorous. and in 2012, I was single and was nihilistic about monogamy, and I was like a little hopeless. I was like, either I'm gonna cheat or I'm gonna get cheated on. And I was so burned, you know? so I thought, " This is just, is this just life?" And so I was single, and then somebody mentioned that they're polyamorous and that they were going to a meetup, and I was like, " S- Come again?" Mm. "What, what's go..." You know? Mm-hmm. There's a wor- there's a word for what I feel, which is concurrent attraction, concurrent affection, I do believe some people just are monogamous, and that was never me, so I felt like broken, right? Until I found this term or so I was 25. And I was sort of at this quarter-life crisis anyway, and like a lot of things were changing.

My career was changing and, and then I fell in love, you know? And so I was very scared because at the same time I was dealing with grief and loss. my dad was sick, and I fell in love with someone who lived in my hometown. So when I visited my sick dad, I was also visiting this partner. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right? And so it was sort of like all tied together of like attaching to someone while letting go of another core figure and- Mm-hmm ... and so in hindsight it's so clear to me how scared I was, but I was like, "Okay, I'm falling in love with you, and I wanna be polyamorous, but like I have to be your main person."

everybody else matters less, right? Mm-hmm. Explicitly. Mm-hmm. And it came from fear and anxiety for me, and I also didn't trust him- Mm ... I realize in hindsight. Mm. Mm. Right? I didn't feel secure, for good reason, because he cheated on me a lot.

Right? So-

I chose that as a way to like impose structure and rules in a very unstable feeling, and it was as close to monogamy, which was the only model I ever had up until that point that I could think of, Monogamy plus one.

Nichole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Genevieve: and then two years into it, you know, there's a lot of stumbling, a lot of me being unkind to metamours that I then made amends for later- Mm-hmm ... but two years into it, I fell in love again, and it's that classic thing of like, "Oh, now that I'm going through it, I don't want the rules anymore."

You know? It's like- Yeah. Yes ... when you were going through it- Yeah ... I needed my rules. You know? And like and it's just to, just to humble myself and be like, "Oh, okay. I wish I could have had compassion for the other people and empathy before. " But I was so like hard and, and scared.

But I fell in love again, and this person, who I am still with, we're about to celebrate 12 years together. Aw. Aw. He was experiencing these, like, weird rules of, you know, "You're not allowed to sleep in my bed. That's my bed with my other partner," and da, da, da, da, da. And he was like, "This is weird." Mm. "This is weird.

I don't like it. I don't wanna come over. I don't wanna do this," right? He, he was just very plain and frank pushing back in a way that nobody had yet pushed back on our dynamic.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Genevieve: or at least the first person that I listened to. Maybe somebody did push back- ... and I closed my ears, you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, you know,

Nichole: that's entirely possible.

Genevieve: so yeah, Ishik, who's my, my partner, I also have a podcast with him, he and I deepened our love, and I realized in that relationship, oh, I'm actually not feeling tight and controlling in this connection. I'm actually feeling like I can trust you and I can relax.

That contrast, I try not to compare people, but I, I noticed in me- Mm-hmm. Mm,

Laurel: mm, mm ...

Genevieve: a softening of, like, That's the whole point. I came to polyamory, I didn't wanna put artificial walls up, right? Mm-hmm. And that's what I had been doing within polyamory.

And so I was like, "I think that's not how I relate to people. I think that was all just, coming from being upset." and so I worked with my first partner saying, like, "This is what I would like to let go of," and he dug his heels in and he, he wanted his position. And then, like I said, he kept cheating on me, right?

Mm-hmm. And so I was like, " I'm, I'm done." I will say, so I'm not usually the type of person to stay if someone cheats, but in polyamory, maybe you guys have experienced this, people can get sneaky and like, " Well, I thought I had communicated that I would do..." Like, that gray area of like- Mm ... "I told you, but only a half-truth, and so maybe it was a miscommunication."

And I- Eh. And I'm like- Yes ... "Okay, so you betrayed me. You cheated on me, but, like, okay, maybe you didn't mean to," that whole dance.

Nichole: Yes. And

Genevieve: so I stayed so much longer- Mm ... because there was this blurriness and this fuckery around- ... you know- Yes ... what the actual bounds were.

Nichole: Yep.

Genevieve: Yep. Yes. And I'm kinda- You're nodding so

Nichole: hard.

I know. I'm hoping that they can hear my nodding because it's like- ... I've just, I experience this

s- yes.

Genevieve: So that was my experience with my first partner, and contrasted with someone who was proac- proactively, "Oh, hey, by the way, I'm going on a date.

what do you need to know?" You know, like, "This is what I'm doing." And, and he would ask like, "Do you want bullet points of just like, 'We had sex, we used a condom,' da da da da da, or would you like to hear stories of, 'We went to this restaurant,' and da da da da?" Like, he wanted to know with precision how to take care of me- Wow

how to love on me. Wow. And any answer was okay.

Laurel: Mm-hmm,

Genevieve: mm-hmm. And, I was just like, "Oh, it can be like this?" Yeah. So I pretty soon fell apart with my other partner,

but I started raising my standards, including Ishik, was expecting more from me, Mm-hmm. He was expecting me to, If I'm upset, sorry, you can't text me. Like, I'm gonna go out and see this person.

This is my time with this person. If you're upset- Yeah ... please seek support somewhere else," And so he was also teaching me how he needed to be treated, which then helped me teach other people how to be treated right. Mm. So, so and I don't wanna act like he was my teacher. We were very much both in our mid-20s, you know?

Mm-hmm. And- Yeah ... but he at that point had been polyamorous longer, and had just good mentors. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so I got connected with the polyamory community in New York, and really felt supported, and everyone was grounded. I was pretty quiet about my polyamory. I was pretty like low-key for the first six years.

It wasn't anybody's business, and then, there was a panel that was gonna be hosted at this, place called The Wing in New York.

And my friend asked me, you know, "It's a panel on non-monogamy. Would you be willing to speak?" And I did have a history of public speaking even though I was low-key now, and I said, "Sure. I think, you know, that's fine." And I was very shy to be public about this, but then I saw in the crowd like how valuable visibility was.

Mm-hmm. Like how many people felt validated, and they had the experience I had before of, "Wait, there's a word for it," or, "There's a term for that," or, "I'm not alone," and that was just me sharing my story, right? And I was like, "Oh, I think I have to be visible." Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, and so I've had this very complicated relationship with being visible online because I'm not, I don't like it. Mm-hmm. I don't like it. Mm-hmm. I don't like everybody seeing me and having an opinion.

It's too many opinions. Mm-hmm. And Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... um, and I like making things, that are clear, and I feel catharsis when I get what's in the chaos that's inside and calmly deliver it in, like, 90 seconds, right? Mm-hmm. There's, like, a, an ease that comes to me with that, So yeah, since 2018, I've just been making things.

Um, I've been growing throughout it. I've been getting deeper into relationship anarchy- Mm-hmm. ... um, over the last six years. and now pretty much I think am, like, a relationship anarchy educator and I offer peer support, which is intended to be, like, a lateral power dynamic of, like, I'm not telling you what to do.

I don't know what's best for you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, but I think you might know what's best for you, so let's go find it.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Genevieve: Yes. Right? And, then in the last couple of years, I've decided to play a bit more and do, like, media analysis on YouTube- Mm-hmm

and, you know, talk about cartoons and movies and stuff . and then created the podcast I Could Never, which is a storytelling podcast. I kind of am sick of talking about myself- ...

Nichole: as I, as I talk about myself. I talk about myself.

Genevieve: , In terms of my own polyamory present day, I have two anchor partners. One lives in Ireland, and one lives in Berlin here with me. and It's lovely. They love each other. They're, they're bros every time that they hang out. Like, I just, like, they went to go throw axes together-

the last time we were all together. And I just sat with my cider just watching my boys throw axes at the wood, you know. Hot. Yeah. Um-

Nichole: Gorgeous ... yeah.

Daniel: Wow. I mean- it's great that we're gonna be discussing our flag means death later on- ... because it sounds like your polycule is very much in the pirate zone. Yes ... you've got the axe-throwing, you've got crossing international waters. Oh, yeah.

Genevieve: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah,

Genevieve: yeah. Yeah, no, Reese is a blacksmith and he works- Oh

Daniel: Oh, yeah.

Genevieve: Well- He's like- He creates his own mead and he-

Laurel: Wow,

Genevieve: okay ... he took me, you know, berry picking and shit. So, like- Aw ... it's, he's a very, yeah, I think pirate-coded- ... person.

Daniel: Is there a handkerchief for that? Yeah Like, a... Can you, can you, can you flag?

Genevieve: Little pirate flag.

Yeah. A little black with a skull and

Daniel: cross.

Laurel: Aw. Let's, let's make E... Let's sew Evie a little flag later and send it

Genevieve: to him. I would love that.

Daniel: Out of the bo- back pocket.

Genevieve: I gotta figure out if I put it on the left or the right side. Yeah. Am I giving, am I receiving?

Daniel: we can make you, uh, one for each.

Laurel: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you can raise it depending on what mood you're in.

Daniel: Yeah.

Genevieve: Yeah. Yeah. You know, flagging your booty. Yeah. Heyyo. So, so

yeah. So that's, that's where I'm at now. I also have a crush on someone who's coming to see me in a few weeks. Ooh. Like, most of my friends and crushes are, like, very... It's very fluid and very ambient. Like I said, with relationship anarchy, like, what is a friend, what is a lover? Like, what do we feel like doing today? And then- Mm-hmm ... all of my friends, for the most part, are relationship anarchists, so we roll with it and let there be an ambiguity that we all kind of are comfortable with.

So it's funny, like, I think... I don't know if this is your experience, but, like, my experience has been, like, I started with some chaos, and then got really into the rules and learning all the terms- Mm ... and, like, very- Mm ... very, taking it very seriously. And then, like, as I got more internal security, I started, like, letting it go and being a little bit more laid back.

And the reason I called it Chill Polyamory is, at this point, like, my polyamory's kind of boring. Like, it's cute, but it's- Yeah ... like, kind of boring, and I think that's hopefully aspirational. Your polyamory can be boring. It doesn't have to be melodramatic.

Daniel: I think it's a good disclaimer, especially these days too.

you kind of have to say that your polyamory is chill if you wanna be like, "Yeah, I'm a human being," because otherwise... It, kind of the same thing with, like, veganism, right? Like, people, people think of polyamorists in much the same way that they think of vegans, is that you're going to, Prostitize

prostitize or- Be militant ... have a very rigid sense of what you want,

Laurel: And you're gonna, like, militantly impose that on other people.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: And we talk about all the time about how, healthy, practiced, committed polyamory would make a really boring reality TV show.

Yeah. Because it would- So much ... it would just be scheduling.

Genevieve: So

Nichole: much. Like, maybe there'd be some drama if we're like, "We're gonna share finances." Like, that might be a thing, but, like...

your ability to, be able to take the chaos maybe that you're feeling internally or, take your experience and synthesize it into incredibly, I would say digestible and transparent and vulnerable- Mm-hmm

experience. I know that you say, like, you're peer support so you don't necessarily give advice, but it, it comes across as, like, incredibly kind and warm. Mm. And, I think- it helps in our overall goal, I think, of just, like, showing up as human.

Genevieve: Mm-hmm.

Nichole (2): Right? Yeah. And not this, like, debaucherous, like um, like- Speak for yourself.

Yeah, your, I mean, your debauchery for sure is still a thing. . But, thank you for your service. it is very helpful and, um, yeah Laurel just saluted. Um

Daniel: She, she says the same thing to me every time after we have sex.

Nichole: Yeah. Thank you for your service.

Genevieve: Yeah. It's part of aftercare. Just like, I need to acknowledge you've just done a lot of work. Thank you. No, thank, thank you. Thank you. Those are really kind words. I appreciate it. I'm always happy when I'm talking to a person who reflects back to me their experience of me, including if they have a problem with me.

I wanna know. But, like- Oh, me too ... online it can be so... Yeah.

Nichole: I keep asking people-

Genevieve: Like, there's no faces ...

Nichole: to like- Yeah ... talk shit about us on the, on the Reddit. Yeah. 'Cause I just wanna know, like- ... what's your actual opinion of me?

Daniel: I mean, I think it's been helpful with our brand that we've started from the very beginning to be like, hello, we are the shit show.

We are the, uh-

Nichole: We're the fuck-ups ...

Daniel: we're the crew of the Revenge- Mm-hmm ... among the world- Aw ... of, of polyamory.

Laurel: Aw.

Nichole: Should we get into it?

Daniel: Piracy?

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah, you

Nichole: keep bringing

Laurel: it up. I mean-

Nichole: Yeah. Like, I mean into our next segment-

Daniel: You mean, Is This Poly?

Nichole: so Is This Poly is a segment where we take a piece of media and we ask the question, is this poly?

Laurel: Dun, dun. Okay, I have a confessio- confession to make.

Daniel: You didn't finish.

Laurel: I didn't finish it. I was up till 4:00 AM.

Nichole: You did have to hot tub and then show up looking as sexy as you are

Laurel: right now.

This takes a lot of effort, okay? Takes a lot of effort. All right, how- But I was up till 4:00 AM watching... I got to episode four.

Daniel: Of season two?

Laurel: Of season two. Okay.

Nichole: Okay, thank God.

All right. Well, you may have missed some major polyamorous-

Laurel: Shit. Okay ... moments. It's okay. this will be fun for me.

Daniel: Well, we're gonna re-enact-

Laurel: Yeah, re-enact ...

Daniel: the, the vital scenes- ... that you missed. Ooh. Okay. Yeah, yeah. From memory. Okay. So Evie, I hope you're ready. Uh,

Laurel: sure. Did you, did you get your lines? We can figure it out.

Daniel: Yeah.

Laurel: Daniel sent you some sides, so- ... you can read those.

Daniel: Our Flag Means Death is a comedy, piracy, queer, poly series from the early '20s. It sounds like it's the, uh, the n- last century. I think it was, like,

Genevieve: 2020.

Daniel: Yeah.

Genevieve: Mm-hmm. 2020 or

Daniel: 2021. Yeah. I, I noticed in the credits there was a lot of, like, COVID, like, credits- Oh

of, like, monitoring, so it must have been in that era. Yeah.

Laurel: Yeah. Filmed during the-

Daniel: Great time to get a bunch of people, uh, in a small cramped spaces on boats together.

Nichole (2): It

stars, , Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby.

Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Nichole: Um, both New Zealand actors and treasures on the planet. we love both of them deeply. and I was thinking this morning of googling Taika Waititi, and Rita Ora, and Tessa Thompson again, because I wanted to see those- Oh, yeah ... paparazzi photos of them on the balcony.

Were

Genevieve: they in, were they in a triad? Or that was just-

Nichole: We're gonna say- ... head canon ... it was a showmance. Um- Okay ... because they were all in a movie together. So.

Daniel: All right. If we're gonna take a quick left turn here, I did some reading about this this morning. This is a real quick Poly in Public invasion of privacy.

Nichole: Great. Okay.

Daniel: So in, I think it was the late teens- Yeah ... they were spotted, , on a balcony with Tessa Thompson, just laughing and kissing, and embracing, and it hit the gossip rags for a few days. Or initially they were completely quiet about it, and nobody said anything. They're just like, "Whatever," you know?

"This is our life, and it'll blow over."

And then a few years later, Rita Ora and Taika Waititi got married in secret- Mm ... private ceremony. Oh. And, uh, at some point Rita Ora came out and said, "The whole, like, idea that we were in a throuple is just crazy.

It was just good friends having fun at a party and unwinding." Oh.

Genevieve: So threesome. Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Genevieve: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Back to the show.

Daniel: So something else that I found out-

Genevieve: Oh ...

Daniel: in my research here- Oh ... is that, , this show is based very, very loosely on real- That night ... people from history.

Yes. It's this

Nichole: That night, yes.

Daniel: They ended up going on a killing spree afterwards. Tessa Thompson, you know, she's good with a sword. Um, so this is based on real characters from history. Okay. Not, not just Blackbeard- Mm-hmm ... but, Stede Bonnet, the gentleman pirate- Mm ... was a real person.

set out completely inexperienced, got injured almost immediately. Met Blackbeard. They, like, traveled around together. It was questionable whether they might be mateys-

Genevieve: Mm-hmm ...

Daniel (2): which is, like, there's like a French term I think it's, like, matim- matrimony,

Julien: Matelotage

Daniel: was ... which is where the term matey comes from, where you can basically have, like, a pirate marriage.

Laurel: Oh.

Daniel: Yeah. Oh.

Genevieve: Like, matrimony, kind of.

Daniel: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Matrimony.

Genevieve: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Genevieve: Yeah, yeah. Fair. Okay.

I

mean, You're on a boat. Like- Yeah ... you know. Yeah. There's no rules.

Daniel (2): In the show, Steed is a landowner who lives in England, I believe, not Barbados, and, sets out late in life, midlife crisis, decides he's going to be a pirate.

Laurel: What a fucking midlife crisis. Stede. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Stede.

Genevieve: then He meets Blackbeard, and... So basically, like Stede he abandons his family. He has like- Yes ... a wife- Yeah ... and kids and stuff, and he just abandons his family. He wants to become a pirate, and then he meets Blackbeard, and there is sexual tension from-

the jump. And but I think Stede and Blackbeard's queer relationship, gay relationship is very central to the plot of- Yes. Yes ... and I think it's very important to people. so he eventually goes like back to his wife, who has now got a new partner.

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Genevieve: And they agree to stay married, but also have these other people in their life. And so I, at the time, went onto Instagram, and I was like, "So from an RA POV," right, like from a relationship anarchy read of this, this feels non-monogamous. This feels polyamorous, right? Technically, it's two couples that might be like subscribing to some kind of monogamy, but they're in partnership.

They're still married. There's a scene with his wife and her boyfriend and her husband- Mm-hmm ... both feeding her in bed. Like, it's very polyamorous feeling, and people got so mad. Really? Because they're like... Yeah, oh, God, I've never been read to filth so much on TikTok before. It was like saying, what if these fictional characters were actually in like sort of a, like a fluid, flexible read of polyamory?

Um, because what is a partner? Does it have to be sexual, and does it have to be romantic, right? Yeah. And they're still like life partners. They're staying married, and they have these other people in their life like that they're building a life with, and it's all in the open. So I really appreciated that part.

There's- Mm-hmm ... also other polyamory in the show, but that, that is the central relationship that I think captured a lot of people's hearts. Interesting. And that's Rhys Darby and Taika Waititi. Yes. You know?

Daniel: You've got the, Blackbeard, or Ed, as we call him-

Genevieve: Mm ...

Daniel: and Stede polycule formation. You've got this, uh, relationship between Olu, Jim, and Archie, and then later on, the pirate queen seems to be invited into that formation as well.

that one was perhaps the most forward in its depictions. You've got a party scene

Nichole: Yes

Daniel: where they are all embracing and dancing together. You have when, , Jim goes to try and fix Olu back up with the pirate queen who he's had a falling out with, and goes up to her and is like,

Clip: I know things didn't end well, but he thinks about you all the time, man. Olu came with me because we're like anchors for each other. We're, we're family. Oh, yeah, family who fucked. Not helping. Sorry. Sorry. Look, ever since Olu came with us, all he does is talk about you and how he wishes he could make it up to you.

Thank you for telling me. You wanna talk to him? I would not say no to that.

See you soon, Pirate Queen.

Daniel: And I tried directly before I came on to try and, like, draw a, kind of a flow chart to see if I could get everybody on the show somehow connected- ... in a polycule, 'cause there's not a relationship in this that there is not some slight spin of polyamory or attraction to somebody outside-

Nichole: Mm

Daniel: that happens in this. Even, like, you've got this kind of married couple of pirates.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Uh-

Nichole: Black Pete and Lucius.

Daniel: Even in that relationship, talk about how Lucius has been, like, drawing pictures of everybody naked- Yep

and Black Pete's really cool with it.

Nichole: Yep.

Daniel: You've got Lucius then having, , these, like, fantasies about Blackbeard who pushed him over the ship- ... and he's, like, drawing pictures of Blackbeard in his little notebook. Like, every single relationship in this has some degree of permeability.

Nichole: Yes. ?

Genevieve: So I actually actually Have some inside info- ... um, on this show, 'cause I'm friends with one of the actors. Wow. Um, so, so I can, like, give a quick, like, for anybody who hasn't seen the show. So Jim is played by Vico Ortiz, who's this non-binary drag king. They're fantastic. And because they're polyamorous in real life, they actually were able to work with the HBO writers and, like, seep in a little bit more polyamory vibes- What?

into- ... the story itself. so in the show, Jim gets with their friend Olu, and they have, like, this tender, soft, sweet friend sensual connection. One of my favorite scenes is then when Jim connects with Archie, and that's, like, playful and sexy and hot, and it's like you see two different Jims. Yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

And then, and then Jim comes back to Olu and is like, "

Clip: I kissed someone. What? Really? Yeah. It was actually a lot of kissing. It felt weird not telling you, you know, because we- No, no, no, no. It's fine ... oh, and you're kind of the best friend I tell things to

You didn't mean to. Ah. I'm glad you didn't. So go on, who was it? Archie? She's cute. Mm-hmm. I saw her boobs. Oh, okay. Nice. Both of them. Okay, that's enough. I don't need any more.

Genevieve: And I was like, that's so relatable. Yes. Yep. I was like- Yes ... okay, partner me needs to take care of you in this. Are you good? How much do you wanna know? Friend me is like, "I have to tell you everything," right?

And, like- That scene plays out that way. And like you were saying, everybody... It's like compersion on a pirate ship TV, on TV, right? Mm-hmm. Like, it's everybody is supporting, like, "Okay, great. I'm glad you're with Archie." You know, um, and then, um, like you were saying, Olu gets with the Pirate Queen, and even though the Pirate Queen had, uh, imprisoned Jim at one point, Jim is like, "Olu, go talk

to her." Ooh. "Hey, girl, what's going on?" Cared more about getting them together than anything else, and it's very sweet and cute and- So I talked to Vico about it, and they were like, "Yeah," you know, so I was trying to, you know, get more polyamory in it. They were able to get the, uh, term anchor partner- Yes ... in the script.

That,

Daniel: that was them. That was Vico who introduced that? That was Vico. That's so awesome.

Laurel: Amazing.

Daniel: Yeah. Which- And like- It, it fits with the pirate theme Uh-huh. Yes. You know, it's like-

Genevieve: Exactly ...

Daniel: it is, it is effortless, and you're, like, immediately like, "Oh, somebody in that room- Knew ... knew." Yeah. Yes.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: I mean, the fact- Exactly

that it's not Taika Waititi is kind of ruining one of my fantasies,

Genevieve: but- We don't know that it wasn't. We, you know- There's still room for, for fantasy there. But yeah, so... And you mentioned also the wedding of two other characters. So during that scene, there's, like, the wedding scene, and then two other people are having sex.

Well, it was supposed to be, or an alternate scene that was written was to have Jim, Olu, and Archie having a threesome. Now, that didn't get filmed, but it was discussed. Mm. That's what Vico said. Aw. And so instead you see Jim, Olu, and Archie all, like, in bed together being cute, so it's not like the hot, steamy thing- Right

that you could have seen. But l- And like you said, we're seeing them on the dance floor, all of them- Mm-hmm ... all dancing together, and there's just this warmth and this supportiveness and this, like, real, like, chosen family feeling that I think using the, like, the, the idea, of a pirate ship and where you're just breaking all the rules anyway, it's a perfect setting to create a new normal.

Just like in post-apocalyptic worlds where you're like, "Well, the wor- the old world is gone." Yeah. Yes. "Let's make a new ideal world," I think you can do that in a pirate ship and that... So that was a great, vessel for talking about polyamory in a, in a way that wasn't rooted in, like, stereotypes from, you know, the mainland.

You know what I mean? Yes.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: In fact, they, they start using the term family. I'm not sure that they use the exact phrase, chosen family, but they come very, very close several times, repeating the spirit of, of this, like saying that they, that they are family, expressing love to one another.

Nichole: But they also keep flashing visually on that motif of all of them on the deck from the first season- Mm-hmm

like, throughout the series. Yeah. Of they're all just sitting on the deck at sunset- Mm-hmm ... just basking in each other's company, and I think that that's, like, so powerful just a one second, just like thump, you know? It just, like, flashes into your mind and kind of drives home the point.

Like how much this family means to them.

Daniel: Yeah. And like our polycule, we always end the day just watching the sunset together.

Laurel: Oh my God, like quick tangent though.

Nichole: You watched the sunrise this morning?

Laurel: No, I did not. Dear God, no. no, just like because we've all been l- like looking for a house together, and I went to that open house.

Nichole: Oh, no.

Laurel: I was just like sitting on the porch- No ... afterward.

Nichole: No.

Did you cry?

Laurel: I was like, "Aw, our little family can just sit out on the porch and- Aw ... just have our, our evening supper." I didn't think supper- ... because I've never thought the word supper in my life, but eat our ice cream cones- Uh-huh ... that Daniel brought to us. I was having a moment. Sweet. Sorry. Yeah.

Nichole: Yes. So sweet.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's so many... I mean, there's so many moments in this-

Laurel: There's so many- ... show ... moments, and I think like, I don't know, I just... I have this overwhelming feeling, and I am... I mean, one, because I stayed up all night watching it, and two, like hearing you, Evie, talk about, coming to relationship anarchy and like sort of like building this like fluid community that you have and like how obviously parallel that is to this like community- Mm-hmm

of folks on the boat together who, yeah, are just kind of like constantly weaving in and out of relationship with each other in varying degrees. how, like, it's just all so decidedly queer, and not just, like, gay, but just, like, absolutely queer in that they're, like, not just, they're not just pirates, which are already, like, outcasts of society, but they are outcast pirates.

Genevieve: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Laurel: and, like, the whole sort of, like, running joke conceit is that they, cannot, try as they might, they cannot pirate correctly.

Genevieve: They're too nice.

Laurel: They're too nice.

Genevieve: They're like, "I don't wanna, I don't wanna kill.

Laurel: I

Genevieve: don't

Laurel: wanna pillage- Yeah ... unless I have to." Yeah, and Stede's whole thing is like, "All we have to do is talk through it as a team."

Like- Like, his whole thing is just- He's so bad at pirating ... communication, communication.

Daniel: Pirates of love.

Laurel: Yeah, and it's just, like, how is this so wholesome? Like, it is so- Mm-hmm ... fucking wholesome while they're, like, cutting to scenes of, like, just people cutting limbs off.

Right. Mm-hmm. And,, like, under the sex and violence, is just, like, this very, like, fundamental message of, we're just gonna care about each other.

Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah.

Laurel: And it doesn't matter, who we are in relationship to each other. It doesn't matter, Whether it's platonic, whether it's romantic, whether or not you have a crush on that person but you're watching their romantic relationship develop with somebody else, like, it is just we're, like, over and over again, like, relentlessly, we're gonna care about each other.

Nichole: I'm gonna say something pretty bold.

Daniel: Are you gonna ask if we wanna go start pirating? ' Cause...

Nichole: I know the answer to that- ... so I don't need to ask. Um, I think this might be the most poly show we've ever- covered. Yeah ... and we've covered things that are more, much more explicitly poly. Yes.

Yes.

Daniel: Right? We've covered things that deal with, with triads, None of that is mentioned, and yet somehow at the end of it, I felt like, again, this was the most, like, anthemic-

Nichole: Yes

Daniel: polyamorous show- Mm-hmm ... that I've ever seen.

Nichole: And I can't believe that Rhys Darby as a mermaid- ... made me cry. Like, I- Uh-huh, yeah ... multiple times. Like,

Genevieve: like- So sweet ...

Nichole: I can't- And

Genevieve: funny and funny.

yeah, no, it's a really sweet, it's a really sweet show.

, And I was really touched by, like, how they emphasize that because, like, all of them came there because they didn't really have another place where they felt at home . Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that really resonated to me. It's like we're pirates sometimes by choice, like with Stede saying, "I'm gonna go out and be, be an adventurer," and sometimes from necessity, 'cause they were kicked out or they were an outcast or they had nowhere to go or they didn't have a home.

And so they all found their way to this boat, and it was like people who might not normally have found each other, but they all need each other and they build this chosen family together. And that, I think, above and beyond the polyamorous moments resonated the most with me of, like, building a family from scratch.

Mm-hmm. And so many of us have done that, and how beautiful it can be and how life-saving it is, how, how inspirational it is to go from, like, this feeling of hopelessness or fear or not fitting in to, like, "Oh, I have people. I have a safety net. I'm understood. I'm loved." Mm-hmm. You know?

Nichole: Mm-hmm.

Genevieve: So that's really my favorite, like, feeling that I took away from the show.

Nichole: Yes.

Genevieve: It's a shame it only got two seasons, so I've got like, you know, the storyline continues in my head. Mm-hmm.

Nichole: Absolutely. Yes, yeah. It- It's a shame it was canceled. I don't know. I n- I don't understand that, but-

Daniel: over the last season, you really see everybody start to open up to either polyamory in some way or queerness, usually both.

Laurel: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: And even, like, Izzy Hands, who started off the series as your classic, like, black leather-clad villain, by the end he's not only, like, telling Blackbeard that he loves him, he's trying to further the relationship between Stede and Blackbeard And he has this beautiful turn of singing some, like, chanson-

Nichole: Oh, God ...

Daniel: at the party, at the Calypso's- Yes

birthday party, and putting on, like, m- drag makeup, where also, um, uh, Wee John-

Nichole: Yes ...

Daniel: who is the big pirate. I think it's the same guy who was in Game of Thrones. I

Nichole: believe so,

Daniel: yeah. Yeah. Who was, uh, uh- Hodor. so he puts on his, like, Divine-style drag makeup, and he comes in and acts as Calypso, and then there seems to be some embrace between Izzy Hands and him it is just a moment of beautiful tenderness between them that... You get this through all of the peripheral characters.

Nichole: Yes.

Daniel: It's so beautiful.

Genevieve: I just wish all shows would end with a big gay party. Right? You know? Yeah. Like, let's- Yeah ... let's go out with a, let's go out with a bang. Yes. And just everybody in drag, everybody dance with everybody.

Laurel: Ugh,

Genevieve: that's how- Everybody in bed together.

Laurel: That's how all, all funerals should be. Like, the, the end of everything- I agree ... should just be a big gay party.