Laurel: Reddit has started serving me up. Like ghost pictures. Like what? Yeah, it's like a subreddit of like, is this a ghost?

Daniel: Is it like a, is it like a caption kind of thing? In order to determine

Daniel: but it was really metaphysical.

Daniel: It was like the way that we determine if you're human, this particular touring test is, can you identify a ghost?

Nichole: I don't know why I find it so funny that

Nichole: it's just picture after picture. Like There's no other context. There's no other sentence. It just says, is this a ghost? A ghost? And it's like a photo of like a panda or a photo of a string cheese.

Nichole: Is this

Laurel: a ghost? That's a picture of a folded bedsheet. Yeah it's people like this picture's so creepy. And then people either explaining like what is actually happening in the picture? Like Uhhuh, like that's just a mirror behind them and you're just seeing somebody else's reflection in the mirror or whatever. Some of them are genuinely kind of creepy.

Laurel: Why are you looking at my levels?

Daniel: My eyes are up here. You don't trust me. It doesn't, I don't trust myself. We've got the microphone here just sitting around waiting for the guest and I'm like, did I turn it down? Is it capturing the ghost of all of our dialogue? How do you like that for a tie in?

Nichole: I find ghost audio more creepy Yeah. Than anything ghost related.

Daniel: I miss the days of analog telephones and analog correspondence, because I feel like all of our channels of communication could be much more effectively haunted in those days. That's what I miss about it. Like when you had a wired telephone, you would occasionally just get random calls in the middle of the night from people just on crazy amounts of drugs fucking around with strangers who would just call and do creepy ass shit in to your answering machine.

Daniel: And you would wake up and there would be like a little, you know, ghost in your box.

Nichole: Okay. I'm sorry. What? So Daniel, we also grew up with analog, analog wired telephones and answering machines. That

Daniel: never happened. Oh, was it just my basement that I lived in? I

Nichole: I that like Yeah, and people could do that now.

Daniel: But they don't, all that kind of like bandwidth of random ass shit through your phone is just taken up by spam and scams. Nobody is just really That's true. Just trying to True because it's not like, fuck with you's

Laurel: we have do not disturb and stuff. Now's yeah. Where it's like someone would call you in the middle of the night and your phone actually rang and you would Yes.

Laurel: Pick it up or not.

Daniel: This is the same reason why all the horror films about like creepy VHS tape.

Laurel: Yeah. They take place on legacy media.

Daniel: Yeah. Yes. Because you can't do it on the dvd. Yes. And you definitely can't do it streaming. Streaming. There's no haunted streaming. Because there's not enough spirit or fucking soul in corporate plugin straight to your cerebellum in order to have a really quality ghost.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: Yeah. Oh, that makes me sad for a different reason than I was sad before about not having analog technology.

Laurel: If you're a quality ghost, please reach out to us@pollyatgmail.com.

Daniel: Little did we know the forces from beyond which our words would conjure. We should have known. They don't reach out over email, or even spooky VHS tapes.

Nichole: They reach out. Via very faint audio rattling noises when you're recording a podcast, and it's definitely not one of the hosts shifting around in her chair trying to be quiet. It's definitely not that.

Nichole: And, and these ghosts are like, they're really sorry. They, they, they reached out again. They said they're really sorry. They made so much noise. They didn't, they didn't know what they were doing at the time.

Nichole: Um, they were just trying to get comfortable.

Nichole: Is this their unfinished business?

If it were the ghost's unfinished business, the ghost would've helped me edit this episode. Oh,

Nichole: okay. Ooh.

Flat flap flap, fla flap. Crisp.

Daniel: Oh. Oh shit. That reminds me. I love you both. No. Aw, that's not what I was gonna say.

Nichole: For listeners,

Nichole: this is Daniel's favorite joke . To go like, be in another room and go, oh fuck, ah shit.

Nichole: And you go, what? And he goes, I love you.

Laurel: Uh, Welcome to Poly

Daniel: Amateur Hour.

Laurel: That's what I thought you were gonna do.

Daniel: That's what I thought

Nichole: he was gonna do. Yeah,

Daniel: that is what I was gonna do. Oh, and then I felt like I had to switch it up because I thought you were expecting

Laurel: because we both were like, okay, don't

Daniel: introduce us.

Daniel: Whatever.

I'm

Daniel: Daniel.

I'm Nicole. I'm Laurel.

Nichole: Do we have a segment that we're doing?

Daniel: In just a moment, we will be joined live in the studio by Michelle High, AKA polyamorous, while Asian.

Daniel: In the meantime though, I thought that we could have maybe a little bit of um, ooh, what do you call it? Poly pyramid scheme. Oh, Oh,

Daniel: I feel like we need kind of a bundled package, poly pyramid scheme. There's a lot of things that we wanna ask of you.

Laurel: I have so much, I'm feeling really needy today.

Daniel: I don't know if they can remember three tasks in a row, but let's try,

Nichole: I trust our listeners implicitly, and I think that they're the smartest listeners that have ever existed, so yeah, they can definitely do three tasks.

Laurel: I bet. Yeah, I bet. If we gave a quiz to our listeners and to other listeners, our listeners would outperform the other listeners.

Nichole: Yeah. Our listeners can outperform outrun, outdo out. Fuck the, Ooh wait, wait. Don't tell me listeners,

Daniel: despite what everyone says. So listen stewards, if you want to really prove them wrong, when they say Poly amateur, our listeners don't, fuck yeah.. You gotta remember these three tasks for this week. Number one. If you have a question, anything that's been bobbing around in your mind, write in to Poly Amateur hour@gmail.com

Laurel: or go to our website, poly amateur hour.com and submit your questions or suggestions for segments anonymously.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: We don't have to come and visit you in your hometown.

Laurel: We would love to. We would appreciate your hospitality.

Daniel: It's already been offered by Australia and Florida. You're gonna let Australia and Florida show you up , just because they have eccentric animals that live there,

that's true.

They do have that in common. Yeah. Danger critters.

Daniel: So if you believe your critters are more dangerous, write into us. Send us a question. Invite us to come stay with you. Those aren't the three tasks. First task, first tasks. Write us a question.

Yeah.

Daniel: Second task, write a review. If you are a regular stubbert, if you're like even halfway charmed, if you're tolerant of us,

Laurel: yeah.

Daniel: Write us a five star review. The written Apple Podcast reviews are the ones that really fool the algorithm into believing that we aren't ai.

Daniel: And third, and perhaps most importantly, tell just one person in your life about Poly Amateur Hour before we've asked you tell just one person you fuck.

Nichole: Then we said while you're fucking, oh, that's right.

Daniel: Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Today

Daniel: we want you to tell one person who is not poll

Daniel: we want them to know Poly Amateur Hour is for Normies two like Polly Eye for the Monogamous Human.

Daniel: It's not as catchy.

Laurel: Oh, are we gonna dress them? Mm-hmm. We're gonna build them a house. Is that what they do now? They're like Habitat

Nichole: for Humanity. Yeah. One guy goes in and like redoes the entire fuck off home. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the other ones give them clothes, make them guacamole, give them a haircut and talk to 'em about feelings.

Laurel: It's the five pillars of life, guacamole, haircuts, and housing. Which are that only three

Nichole: So I had somebody in my life that I was really scared to come out to. I was afraid that he was going to judge me. I just care so deeply about this person and I really I didn't know how he was gonna respond. And so he was at a party that we hosted a couple weeks ago and I just kind of soft launched like, oh yeah. And our podcast.

Laurel: Nice.

Nichole: And I told him the name. I didn't even send him the link 'cause I was like, I'm just like, I'm scared, you know? Yeah. He found it on his own. And I saw him last night and I mentioned something about Yeah, my husband and his girlfriend.

Nichole: Yeah. Because I'm so used to saying that Uhhuh and I had been so conscious to not say it in front of him for so long. Yeah. And then I just found myself saying it. And he's like, oh, I listened to your podcast. Aw.

Daniel: And I'm Polly now.

Nichole: No, I listened to your podcast and I love it. Aw. And he told me that he was just so happy that I had found something that makes me so happy.

Laurel: Aw.

Nichole: And then I started crying. Um, Classic. I guess this was the perfect way to come out to him. Not because I got a compliment at the end, but because, but that is good. It doesn't hurt. But I think that, I mean, I don't know.

Nichole: 'cause I'm not a steward on the other side, and I'm also not monogamous, but like, I think our podcast does a good job of showing the vulnerability in humanity when it comes to polyamory and like the deep commitment that you can have with people.

Nichole: And it might be a good way for you to show your monogamous friends.

Nichole: Hey, this is a facet of my life. That's really important to me. Yeah. And this is the humanity that comes along with it. This is the vulnerability, this is the creativity, this is the fun, this is the sadness, this is the frustration. Yeah. These are all the things that I experience as a polyamorous person explained by these three chuckle fucks.

Nichole: Like

Laurel: I think that was a lot of what was missing from other content for me was one, it was either very academic or or dry and much more like a how to guide. . And then a lot of the other stuff that you can stumble upon is like super self serious. Trying really hard to be the model polyamorous citizen. Or super judgmental

Nichole: To be fair,

Laurel: I am super judgmental. So, but it's like when it's judgment divorced from like a voice or actual people Yeah. It just feels way shittier.

Daniel: It's like when we joke around about the International Poly Council

Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: And their decrees about what is now allowed or not allowed. Yeah. Poly amateur hour is for the people.

Laurel: Yeah. And I do think it's, it is because we have so many monogamous or like swinger listeners, yeah. That it is like you're saying like a very approachable way to learn more about non-monogamy.

Daniel: And it's not just a polyamory podcast. I mean, Nicole hates it when I say this, but it's kind of a comedy podcast. How it's a mode for us to communicate with people is that's basically what comedians go through, is that it's the only way that they can actually communicate with other human beings.

Laurel: I was just watching is Michelle here? Is the dogs are going nuts.

Daniel: The dogs are going nuts. That may mean that it's time for our special guest.

Laurel: I think this is why I'm partially like really obsessed with CAT infrastructure I just want places on the wall to rest myself against

Michelle: you to install one of those, like carpeted shelving right there or something. So, exactly. Uhhuh.

Michelle gets it

Daniel: on laurel's Dating profile interests, cat infrastructure.

Daniel: I just now just imagined like Joe Biden making speeches around his infrastructure bill about cat infrastructure.

Laurel: We need a cat highway.

Daniel: Need the cat parent

Michelle: vote, you know.

Laurel: You would be surprised how, like, how many demographics that crosses?

Michelle: A truly bipartisan yes issue. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah.

Daniel: Welcome to Poly Amateur Hour. Michelle.

Daniel: Thank you so much for jumping on the microphones with us in our weird fitness basement.

Michelle: I like it. I like it. I like the vibes.

Daniel: Yeah. You know, it's it's a vibe.

Nichole: I guess to explain Fitness basement to the listener who is not seeing this. Um, I've been obsessed for quite a while with eighties ladies. And so knowing that we had this basement area that we wanted set up like a bunch of workout gear in I asked Daniel. We should find like eighties ladies workout posters . So they're in the leotards. It's they're sweaty, they're holding like tiny weights.

Daniel: One of them has a tiger,

Nichole: I'm getting to that. Don't skip over the shark. He just loves to ruin the joke before I get there.

Nichole: Mm-hmm. Um,

Daniel: It's like a denied orgasm.

Laurel: Wow. Wow. Or just kind of a crappy one.

Daniel: Yeah.

Daniel: Now I'm gonna, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna attempt to segue here. All these ladies are white and blonde on the walls.

Nichole: Oh my god. They are. Yeah, they're white. There's one brunette around the corner. Oh. Brunette representation. But she's in black and white, so like,

Daniel: it's classy. Michelle, your Instagram your online presence is

Daniel: polyamorous, well Asian, all about representation, intersectionality around polyamory.

Daniel: So, we'd like to start with a little segment that we call Practical Poly,

Daniel: where we talk to people in the poly community who are offering some type of. Valuable resource or service to our communities it can be anything from, the lawyers who practice polyamorous law to real estate agents, to people who are sustaining these online communities.

Daniel: And,

Laurel: uh, I can't wait until I can watch syndicated reruns of Polly Law

Michelle: anyways.

Michelle: Like poly law and Order Uhhuh, yeah. Heinous relationship crimes.

Laurel: Oh my God.

Daniel: Yeah.

Daniel: We always have to explain it to ice tea. So

Michelle: what's this? Polygamy.

Daniel: So can you tell us a little bit about your journey to getting to where you're at? should I, Should I disclose our background? Sure. Me and you like date a little while ago? Yeah. We

Michelle: went on a few dates. We went to like rum club. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. In the before times

Daniel: and then the world fell apart twice since then. Yeah.

Daniel: but when I knew you, this was not a going concern for you at all. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you went zero to 60 , in in not very, not a very long period of time. How did this, How was this um, birthed?

Daniel: Sorry. Birth. The,

Michelle: I guess, I guess, yeah. Let's go with the birthing metaphor. It's been gestating for a while. It's um, like I uh, started my polyamorous journey. I. Officially around like 2012 and like as, as it goes, was introduced to it by a guy who was like 14 years older than me and age gaps are fine, but when I was 18 and the person was 32 and he had two more months of quote unquote nonmonogamous experience than I did meaning, meaning he read sex at dawn two months before I did. Nice. Classic. So that's where it, that's where it started. that relationship lasted about five years.

Michelle: A lot of dumpster fire stuff and I learned a lot from it. And so 2020. February, I wasn't really looking to create an account to talk about polyamory specifically. I just wanted to create a Finsta to just talk about whatever I wanted.

Michelle: On a private Instagram. Ah, I just share random thoughts so that was literally the end of February, like February 28th or 27th, 2020. And then a couple weeks later, the world shut down I'm at home.

Michelle: Everyone's at home. So I guess I'll start just like posting more. So I posted more about broader political things and then talking more about polyamory specifically. And I'm like, you know, I'm in a place in my life where fortunately if I am openly polyamorous and talking about it, I'm not gonna get fired.

Michelle: You know, I'm not still beholden to like, you know, living with my parents or I won't get kicked out, you know, so no, no social consequences, no actual consequences. So start talking about it. And I don't know, since everyone was at home, it just kind of took off. Yeah. So just, uh, Focusing on sharing from my experiences specifically and also um, 'cause I was trying to look up like, oh, what are some other, like polyamorous Asians? you know, like usually in, social justice spaces, like black people are at the forefront. And I'm like, oh yeah. There are a lot of black people who are sharing out their polyamorous experiences. Like one of the first people that I followed regularly and I really liked and still like her content because it's so political, was Alicia of polyamorous black girl.

Michelle: So I just started polyamorous or Asian, I'm like, I'm an Asian person, I'm a polyamorous person. I can share my experience without consequence.

Michelle: And even if people can't be out about it, at least they can realize that, oh, I'm not a total, you know, degenerate pervert. I mean, you can't like, you know, I identify as a degenerate pervert in a positive way. So Yeah. Yeah. You're not like a degenerate pervert in a negative way. Yeah. You're not alone. Yeah.

Daniel: I mean, we started this podcast in order to let people know we were degenerate perverts.

Laurel: reclaim the degenerate pervert slur? You know,

Daniel: this was an interesting moment, right? As the pandemic started to start, you know, a going concern that focused on Asian identity.

Daniel: Right.

Daniel: Yeah.

Michelle: I think a lot of people, and really, especially a lot of white people were thinking about race a lot more, and like, oh, it's at the forefront of conversations.

Michelle: Like the George Floyd protest, black Lives Matter. There was like, stop Asian hate. And so I think that's just a big reason why it, it kind of blew up in 2020

Michelle: you know, for better or worse, I think there are some people who genuinely do wanna learn in a very sustainable and long-term way. And then there are certain people who want to consume that sort of online activism. So I think there was a lot of that as well.

Laurel: Two questions here.

Laurel: What's sort of like your favorite thing that has evolved out of this journey for you? And also like, I. Like anything particularly like challenging or surprising that's come up through it?

Michelle: It feels so corny, but like one of those like, oh, if I'm even helping one person seen, because every once in a while I'll get like a dm.

Michelle: It's like, Hey, I can't be out. But like, yeah, it's cool to see another probably am is Asian person out there and to not feel bad about it. And I'm like, all right, you know, this is, this is good. 'cause like all of us, like we just live it.

Michelle: Right. It's just, it's not necessarily at the forefront of our lives and whatever. It's just kind of, we just live it. Yeah. Right. And I just want that, I just want that for everyone. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even, I don't even think that everyone should be like non-monogamous actually. A lot of people really shouldn't.

Michelle: Yeah. And so like, so, so I'm not like trying to evangelize or proselytize or anything like that. It's just like people who are like, fit for it and would really thrive off of it. That's just, that's just what I want. Most of my life is pretty boring actually.

Laurel: It's really nice.

Daniel: I love the idea of some real like, positive gatekeeping going on. Like keep, Keep your toxic jealous people on your monogamy side. You don't need to join us.

Michelle: It's okay. Yeah. At the same time though, it's like good relationship advice is good relationship advice. It's yeah. Yeah. Even monogamous people would absolutely benefit from looking at what compulsory monogamy is.

Michelle: What jealousy is and you know, why that isn't the most terrible thing in the world. But also you don't have to clinging to it as some sort of symbol of like, oh, they love me because they get outrageously jealous or something. We all

Laurel: deserve more.

Laurel: We all deserve more. Yeah. I appreciate what you said about like, I'm just living my life 'cause I think that's a lot of so much backlash. Not just to like polyamory, but queer advocacy and racial advocacy is like, stop shoving it in my face.

Laurel: , the point is like, no, I just want everyone to be comfortable living their boring ass life the way that I get to. And it's really difficult for a lot of people to be able to do that because they're constantly reminded of how other they are.

Michelle: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. And it's bullshit.

Michelle: Yeah. It's bullshit. Yeah. I think, oh right. And like, your, your second question, I think the surprising thing, de-list influencer type in Portland. So like, some people do recognize me sometimes. Yeah. And it also makes me wonder like how many times people recognize me and they don't come up to me and I'm like, oh, I can't do it.

Michelle: Don't do anything cancelable ever, always be on my goodness. Yeah. No. It's not it's not that big of a deal. But it always is like surprising when it happens.

Daniel: I thought you came on to be canceled. That's usually,

Michelle: this is why people come here.

Daniel: Alright.

Michelle: Alright. Unleashing all the hot takes. Right?

Nichole: I am curious about the content that you're sharing and what kind of interactions you're getting from the community

Michelle: yeah. Yeah. I Was definitely a lot more active 20 20 2021 it's constantly kind of reevaluating how much of my life I do want to share. Because I do focus on sharing from personal experience. I've been careful enough not to ever regret anything that I've ever shared, but at the same time, especially as the page grows bigger

Michelle: you know, Talking about being perceived right. And how, just how terrible people can be on the internet, you know? Mm-hmm. over the years I continue to evaluate like, all right, how much do I share? Because a lot of people. Even at this low level feel entitled feel entitled to your life, feel entitled to getting a say and so I think that I was posting too much

Michelle: , I've pulled back a lot and I mostly just post to stories now because mostly it's just mostly people you like who follow you, right, yeah.

Michelle: Who like read your stories and stuff. But yeah, like I've always tried to, really focus on the intersection with politics things like, you know, racial politics or desirability politics or you know, talking about things like hierarchy and power dynamics mm-hmm.

Michelle: And, and whatnot. And I think that's really important. You know, like everyone has questions about like, oh, how do I manage jealousy? You know, what if I don't get along with metamours? And I think those are important questions of course, but after a while I'm like, this just feels kind of repetitive and it doesn't feel as interesting.

Michelle: Yeah. And I feel like I'm just saying the same answers again and again.

Nichole: As much as you're willing to share.

Nichole: I am curious, so you were 18 when you were dating that guy that read sex at Dawn two months before you did. Mm-hmm. He was so wise. Can you tell us a little more about your polyamory journey? And what polyamory looks like for you today?

Nichole: Yeah,

Michelle: absolutely. Like I met the guy 2011. We started dating 2012. And so that, God, it was just really trial by fire. All these, kind of misgivings that I'd had about monogamy had been floating around in my head since I was like, you know, like a teenager or so, like a, well, a younger teenager.

Michelle: Um, Things like uh, rom-coms like I always talk about the movie Sweet Home, Alabama, because my mom really loved that movie. So I watched a lot and that, I think is a perfect example of a rom-com where the main character has to choose between two people who are like, they're both fine. There's actually nothing wrong with either of them really.

Michelle: Yeah. And so I'm like, why can't they figure out something? Right. Can adults do that? Yeah. Share or whatever. So I had. Those thoughts floating around, I'll say it's definitely a lot easier to do polyamory when you're with someone who isn't incredibly insecure and very angry and very, very jealous, but not willing to take any accountability for their, you know, jealousy and, and things like that.

Michelle: Someone who believes that fighting is intimacy and like yeah. A lot of these things and like, you know, 18-year-old Michelle and stuff didn't know what boundaries were especially as someone who has long been, you know, more an avoidant type.

Michelle: Mm-hmm. So I've always gotten the feedback that I'm like, kind of standoffish so I'm like, okay, you know, I should work on that. And so in my mind that meant no boundaries. Yeah.

Daniel: Michelle. Michelle, why aren't you willing to be completely codependent with me? Right. We met like a week ago,

Michelle: right.

Michelle: Or like, yeah, why aren't you willing to like, have a threesome with me and be totally okay with it, even though we did not talk about it at all? And you just initiate it. Yeah. It's just, oh, like I'm,

Daniel: I'm gonna open the closet door.

Michelle: Here's my friend. Basically. Basically. Yeah. And finally like after college got my first full-time job. It's no coincidence that was the same year in which I broke up with him. And then after that breakup, I was like, I don't think I wanna live with any partners right now.

Michelle: And I eventually found that solo polyamory seemed to be more of my vibe, I still don't live with any partners. God, I love my little studio apartment.

Michelle: My two cats love living alone. Have no one to blame for the dishes except for myself, and That's awesome. I've never fully identified as a relationship anarchist, but I identify with a lot of the tenets of relationship anarchy.

Michelle: Like whenever someone asks like, oh, how many partners do you have? Everyone's always, yeah. Oh, polyamorous, how many do you have? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know exactly what you're asking this question because like the number could be anywhere from three to like eight, depending on what you count.

Michelle: I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: Alright I'm, I'm going, I'm gonna slide you a piece of paper. I want you to write down a number.

Daniel: Sometimes I think that like attachment styles can be kind of wielded in certain ways. Yes. You know, where, oh, you're avoidant because you don't wanna be codependent with me, or you have an anxious attachment style because you have a problem when I don't show up.

Daniel: You know? So like, um, I'm wondering if now that you're like. Comfortable in something that feels more natural to you as a kind of way of life if you still think about yourself in the same terms.

Michelle: I have a lot of thoughts and attachment there. Like, I can't go into all of them, but, so like, I always, I always use terms like avoidance stuff because you know, it does uh, still resonate with me . I always urge people to take attachment theory with a grid of salt where it's like, it's a useful tool, but it's not like an all encompassing, this explains the universe, right?

Michelle: Like it's a tool. Don't use it. Like you were saying, wielding, wielding is a good word. There's so much content that's always like, avoidance are all narcissists and they're terrible people. And like, it's, it's always like, I'm always like, oh, I see attachment style content. Good mental health means not reading the comments.

Michelle: Yeah, Yeah. Um, But yeah, like I still identify with avoidance to a degree, but definitely not as much as I did you know, 10 years ago, even five years ago. And this has been with like a lot of therapy and a lot of relational work where. Yes. One big question that I ask in therapy a lot is this my avoidance or is this just me?

Michelle: Mm. You know, because like Talking about attachment theory there's this tendency to want to pathologize a lot of things that are just.

Michelle: Normal behaviors. Mm-hmm. Or just within the realm of normal behaviors. Right? Yeah. Where it's oh, sometimes if I'm upset or like overstimulated or something like, yeah, I need to go off and be alone a little bit.

Daniel: I thought it was really like an insightful tool, like a dialectical tool to look at your behavior and say, is this avoidant? Or is it just me?

Michelle: Yeah.

Daniel: It puts the definition of avoidant not on you as a person, but on a set of behaviors, right?

Daniel: Like this is avoidant behavior.

Daniel: You know, you don't necessarily have to be an avoidant person like, you know, an Aquarius or a, or a, you know, like, it's like people like their stuff, you know, their, their, their, their categories, right? Mm-hmm. It's like, you know, they meet and they're like, you know, Hey, I'm an Aquarius.

Daniel: Oh, hey, I'm avoidant. And that, by the way,

Daniel: is exactly the conversation that I had when me and Nicole met. I was like, I'm an Aquarius. She's like, I'm avoidant

Daniel: now. Our chart was weird.

Daniel: So what do you guys think? Should we move along home and do our second segment within a segment? Our second meta segment in Sep. Segment

Laurel: in SEPTA segment. It sounds yucky

Daniel: in

Laurel: segment. Yeah.

Daniel: I don't know. In segmentation.

Daniel: I don't know. Artificial in segmentation.

Jesus.

Nichole: Okay. Alright.

Daniel: Let's talk about movies.

Daniel: Next up is this Polly is this Polly our segment where we take pop culture and ask, is that Polly? Nine times outta,

Daniel: ten's not,

Laurel: but it's always that like wishful thinking when I watch something and there's just like the essence of Polly in it. Mm-hmm. There's just like moments and it's because we're so deprived of poly content, I'm just like, yeah. Yeah, that's a crumb. A crumb.

Michelle: May I have some more? Yeah, please, sir.

Laurel: Please.

Laurel: this week we wanted to talk about the film past lives, because Michelle is Asian, not the right kind of Asian, but Yeah. All right.

Daniel: We've already committed to looking at this movie.

Laurel: We can't take it back. We can't take it back. We just have to deal with being perceived as kind of racist.

Laurel: Yeah.

Michelle: According to Avenue Q, everyone is a little bit racist.

Laurel: Nicole is our go-to synopsis recap person because Daniel and I are too. A DHD to do it. Yeah.

Nichole: Okay. So the movie is passed Lives. This was written and directed by Celine Song, and it is semi autobiographical, which I did not know.

Nichole: So in 1999 in Seoul, South Korea, NA, young and Hay, our two 12-year-old classmates who developed feelings for one another.

Nichole: So the end, they

Michelle: lived happily ever after the

Nichole: end, and they loved many people. the end. There we go. And the parents of these two arrange like a date for them to go on like a romantic date.

Nichole: They're 12. Um, It's adorable. They run around statues, they laugh, they'd hold hands in the car. So NY Young's family is going to move to America and has song kind of overhears her telling other classmates about this move. And he's obviously heartbroken.

Daniel: I just wanna say how beautifully this was shot.

Daniel: It's really clear the director has a narrative and personal connection with the city because you don't see very often people able to use the topographical identity of place to such incredible effect.

Daniel: Like in storytelling. There's that one scene where she parts with

Laurel: yes.

Daniel: And he just says, bye and she's going up this path and he's just continuing on in this other path. And it feels as composed as a Renaissance painting, like it is gorgeous.

Nichole: Right. Because we only get two cities in the movie.

Nichole: New York also is a place, right. , and there are times in the, sorry, I don't want to jump forward. I don't wanna do what you two do

Laurel: you have one job, Nicole? And it's to be not us. Sorry.

Michelle: You're supposed

Laurel: to be the plastic

Michelle: thingy for this balloon. Okay.

Nichole: So 12 years later, NA. Young Now goes by Nora that is her Americanized name. Westernized.

Michelle: Westernized.

Nichole: Westernized.

Daniel: I mean, it's Facebook. It's the very early days of Facebook and it's, so I feel like it's a very unique to the moment thing because they're basically like, Facebook is a thing. We're on Facebook now, let's look up all the people that we had crushes on or whatever.

Daniel: Yeah. In grade school, you know? Mm-hmm. Like it's, I did it.

Michelle: Oh, same.

Nichole: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I'll have a random dream about somebody that I had a crush on in like elementary school, and I will Google them. One of them is a soccer teacher in Reno.

Daniel: If you're listening soccer teacher in Reno, are you Polly,

Nichole: please?

Nichole: Um, So Nora and her mother are like, what about that guy that I went on a date with when I was 12 and he was 12 and we were best friends. So she finds him and they connect and they start talking over, I believe it was Skype. I could hear the, oh yeah, I can hear the dial tone. And they start talking. They quickly developed the report that they had when they were children until Nora is like, you know what? I'm spending too much time thinking about this person and this life that could be in Seoul, and I have to focus on my ambition to be a writer here.

Nichole: She says we're not gonna talk for a while. Ostensibly breaking up with him or ending there. I was gonna say telephonic relationship. Their Skype relationship. They're, you know, their reconnection

Daniel: and she goes off to an artist retreat, which to me gave me a lot of PTSD from like my MFA program.

Daniel: I was like, oh my God, I know these boring ass people. Drinking, drinking wine thoughtfully, looking out windows with uh, deciduous trees, slowly blowing in the breeze. Just upstate New York vibes she meets a guy at the artist retreat. And they end up boning because they have the same, you know, books and music in common,

Daniel: This is a long way for me to say something which is not actually related to the plot. He writes a book called Boner.

Laurel: Oh yeah. Forgot about, which is, I

totally

Daniel: forgot about that. Which is of course Daniel remembered.

Yeah, of course.

Daniel: Because Daniel

Laurel: wishes he wrote this book.

Daniel: No, it just feels like was an in joke for people who like went to an MFA program in New York at some point and are like, thereby the grace of the recession go I, I could have stayed in New York and written boner

Laurel: this is Daniel's favorite part of the film.

Daniel: Thank you for coming my TED talk.

Nichole: So another 12 years pass and Nora and Arthur, her husband are living in New York. Has song is coming to visit New York.

Nichole: They've circled around each other, I believe, like lightly on social media as the impression that I got. But they're not in constant contact anymore. He was incredibly nervous to see her.

Nichole: And she didn't really know what to make of him coming out to New York. So they meet up in Central Park

Nichole: she hugs him several times and then they decide to basically walk the entire city. And it feels like a lot is said in the silences between them, which is acknowledgement of their feelings for each other.

Daniel: A lot of the themes of this movie are in the title of the film, right? Like Past Lives.

Daniel: There's the past life of her pre-migration, right? About how you can have this second self, an earlier self that you kind of leave behind

Daniel: but also there's this theme running through based on this concept, I guess from Korean folklore called

Michelle: Yon Yon. Mm-hmm.

Michelle: And I believe it's like, uh, from like Buddhist principles as well. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Yeah.

Clip: It means providence or fate. But it's specifically about relationships between people. It's an yon if two strangers even walk by each other in the street and their cloth accidentally brush. Because it means there must have been something between them in their past lives.

Clip: If two people get married, they say it's because there have been 8,000 layers of yon, over 8,000 lifetimes.

Daniel: I just imagine it like um, the, the coins accumulating on Super Mario Brothers where

Laurel: I thought you were gonna like, beautiful. Describe like Adams. I thought you're gonna describe like a atomic of dama.

Daniel: No, you just like level up, right? Yeah. You get enough in young and then you, and then you become like super fast Uhhuh or like five times your original size.

Yeah. Uhhuh

Daniel: or you get married.

Nichole: So Nora is back at home with her husband and her husband is uh, like so. what's happening? What's going on? Are you attracted to him? He's like, really just like out there and she commits the cardinal sin of saying, I don't know.

Nichole: And this sends Arthur into a spiral. Really? Yeah, he is

Daniel: really? I thought he handled everything pretty well. I thought he was like,

Nichole: I thought he was

Daniel: pretty chill.

Nichole: I'm not

Daniel: projecting. Okay. No.

Nichole: Like, Maybe Okay. Because maybe I just like identified with this insecure behavior

Nichole: But he does wake her up in the middle of the night just like laughing to himself and she's like, what? And he's like, I'm the white guy that your parents didn't want you to be with, and I'm ruining your life and I'm keeping you from the love of your life.

Nichole: And I was expecting him to say, and I'm sorry for existing. 'cause I feel like that's where I would've gone. Um,

Daniel: Wow. I did not, that's not the way that I interpreted this scene at all. Yeah. That's fascinating.

Nichole: How did you interpret it?

Daniel: I thought it was a very kind of sweet moment of sharing, of vulnerability.

Daniel: And specifically because they were two writers who were talking about the way that they interact with language. He started the whole conversation by saying,

Clip: I was just thinking about, what a good story this is.

Clip: The story of his hung in me. Yeah.

Clip: I just can't compete.

Clip: What do you mean

Clip: childhood sweethearts who reconnect 20 years later only to realize they were meant for each other? Were not meant for each other. I know.

Daniel: and It was all communicated kind of sweetly, like they were facing each other.

Daniel: Like it didn't feel like so much like a meltdown as like a sharing of fears and of kind of looking at the situation. Honestly, I thought he, he turns to her and he says,

Clip: You know you only speak in Korean when you talk in your sleep. I do. Yeah.

Clip: You never sleep talking English. You only dream in Korean.

Clip: I didn't know that. Yeah, you never told me that. Most of the times I think it's cute.

Clip: Sometimes. I don't know. I guess I get scared. Scared of what? One.

Clip: I'm dreaming a language that I can't understand. It's like there's this whole place inside of you where I can't go.

Michelle: I really loved the husband in this actually, and I don't think, yeah, he wasn't chill, but his response and his behavior throughout the movie was more mature than, I mean, we're gonna go to the like, is this poly thing, but like more mature than the standard monogamous sort of expectation.

Michelle: Like, he, yeah, He has his insecurities like shown through.

Michelle: But I think, like we were talking about earlier, it's like, it's very human though. Like would you expect him to be just super chill about like, I think that's what I loved is that they didn't just make the husband like always just super chill and yeah, of course he was spiraling and, and, and yeah, he wasn't, I feel like toxic 'cause he was too much, but he wasn't toxic about it. It didn't feel like he was pushing it on her. He was sharing his insecurities.

Michelle: You know, speaking about like my ex, it's like the kind of person was like, yeah, when they get insecure they just kind of get angry.

Michelle: And they're just like, Ugh, why are you doing this? Or like, you are making me feel this way, from what I remember I don't think he ever put the feelings onto her.

Michelle: But yeah, he just seemed very vulnerable and, just, it felt very light and human and actually kind of refreshing.

Laurel: Interesting, . I feel like my reaction to the husband falls somewhere in between the Michelle Daniel and the Nicole spot. There's a lot of it that very much reminds me of like early conversations that I had with my ex-husband as I was coming to the place of realizing like, I am polyamorous . He was mostly just being very reasonable but also vulnerable. But also the immense guilt that I felt through all of that. And like could totally identify with Nora's sort of like, I don't know, like I don't know if I'm attracted to this person. Like I can't say no. 'cause I feel like that's a lie. I can't say yes. 'cause that feels like I'm a bad person. But also I'm just like very unsure about all of this. Being unable to separate the reaction of the husband from my own, like personal guilt in the situation.

Laurel: Yeah.

Nichole: Yep. I actually thought of you because he said, I'm keeping you from your uhhuh. I think he says Destiny. And you had expressed when you were opening up with your husband, you were afraid that you were keeping him Yes. From

Laurel: the love of him. Yes. From having a beautiful, monogamous relationship. Yeah.

Daniel: You are my density.

Laurel: Density.

Nichole: To reference an Is that movie Polly? Oh, no, it's not. No. Ew. Gross. No. Okay. All right. So let's see. So,

Daniel: I do think it's really, you know, showed a lot of vulnerability that your ex-husband was okay with you just talking in your sleep only in Korean. It must have been really confusing for him

Michelle: and furiously going on Duolingo every day

Laurel: translator.

Nichole: So, it is, has song's last night in New York and he has a very early flight. And so Nora and Has song and Arthur are all going to go out together.

Nichole: And then we get to the bar, the gorgeous bar that is somewhere in the East Village.

Daniel: We're gonna do some research.

Nichole: Yeah,

Daniel: we're gonna do a poly amateur hour field trip. There's a callback at that bar to the very first scene in the movie, which we kind of skipped over.

Daniel: Before it jumps back 24 years.

Daniel: It starts in the bar from the perspective of somebody watching, playing that kind of game that we all play with strangers sometimes when we see them and we go,

Clip: who do you think they are to each other? Hmm. I don't know. Yeah, this is a hard one.

Clip: I think the white guy and the Asian girl are a couple, and the Asian guy is her brother. Or the Asian girl and the Asian guy are a couple, and the white guy is their American friend. You're not even talking to the white guy. Maybe they're all just colleagues.

Clip: I have no idea.

Daniel: Great hook.

Daniel: Like it is never verbalized that they could have a polyamorous or non-monogamous.

Daniel: Relationship,

Nichole: I'm skipping ahead a little bit. Yeah, we know what I'm looking

Daniel: to do.

Nichole: Okay. So,

Daniel: time Cop Sean Claude Van Dam.

Nichole: So Nora's sitting between Hay Song and Arthur and Hey song and sung and Nora are speaking in Korean with each other.

Nichole: He expresses, like I often wonder what would've happened if you would've stayed in Korea and you know, would we have.

Nichole: Gotten together? Would we have gotten married? Would we have children?

Daniel: And she says in this moment the little girl that you fell in love with I'm not her anymore, but she existed. She was real.

Michelle: And like an important note also with the scene is that it starts off with um, Nora is translating. Between them, but then eventually she stops translating and then the husband is kind of pushed out.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. He's just sitting there. So again, love this husband. What a sweet. Oh my God. Oh yeah. What a bad situation for everyone.

Nichole: So it is early in the morning. And has song's, Uber, Lyft is coming. And so Nora walks him out to the street, he's got his little rolly cart, and there is this very, very long moment where they're just looking at each other, waiting for the car to come.

Nichole: It's a really great tense moment of filmmaking because it is very much like do you want them to kiss and embrace and, and declare their love for each other? and then he gets in the car and he leaves, Nora walks back to her apartment, her husband is sitting on the steps, they embrace and she breaks down crying.

Nichole: Which was also, you know, the moment that I cried mm-hmm. sobbing.

Michelle: I was an ugly cry.

Nichole: Yeah.

Daniel: I basically ugly cry at every movie that we watch though.

Daniel: It's like That's true. Home alone really.

Nichole: And that is the end of the movie.

Laurel: I just got teary. I just, while you're describing it.

Michelle: Yeah. I was feeling out like my ribs, like oh, the tenseness. Like that longing, the silence and the staring between them and, oh, yeah. Yeah. This reminds me of like, this feels like a Tumblr, but like, you know, there's like two times types of tragedies where it's like it's tragic because it didn't have to be this way, and then it's tragic because it was always going to be this way.

Michelle: , I don't know if it's poly, but it is very beautiful. And it is very , expansive. I think, beyond typical monogamy culture.

Daniel: It made me think specifically of, Casablanca. which was like the original tragic conversion story.

Daniel: Where the really amazing thing about it, right, is this person. In a relationship extending compersion in this way that feels like a small miracle.

Daniel: It's the most loving thing that you can possibly do. Like this husband doing this for his wife. There is this tragedy of wanting the best for the person who you love, even when the best isn't you.

Nichole: So I think we all are aligned. This movie is not Polly. No. Um, It's really good.

Michelle: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I also like watching this movie, I'm like, this the, some of the parallels to like more non-monogamous relationships.

Michelle: It's like comment relationships, right? Mm. Where um, like, uh, like for example, there was a friend of mine who like, I was also sexual with moved to Japan a couple years ago, and then when I was in Tokyo, we got to meet up and we spent like a lovely afternoon together. And it was as if no time had passed.

Michelle: There wasn't any sort of awkwardness meeting up and it was just like, oh, I love that about non monogamy. Mm-hmm. Where it's like It's not like I, we had to cut ties once, like he moved across the ocean.

Laurel: Yeah, I was thinking about the component of what could have been . And part of the reason that that I am very like, interested in practicing polyamory is that I don't have to ask that question in terms of you know, what could have been if I weren't in this other relationship

Laurel: Instead it's like, what could have been, because I made like a very conscious, deliberate choice for myself not to enter into that relationship rather than there being some like external . Force that just didn't allow it to happen. Mm-hmm.

Daniel: It's like in polyamory, you don't have to have your past life end in the same way.

Laurel: Yeah.

Daniel: If they were poly, that little girl who you fell in love with in soul would've still been there in a certain way. You like, you wouldn't have to kind of, pass the baton from oneself to another self as you move from one relationship to another relationship.

Laurel: Yeah. , Like, yeah, there's definitely, I think there are ways in which, you know, we facet ourself with other people. And so because of my relationship with you, there is a new me that forms because of the things that you bring out in me or we bring out in each other.

Daniel: Alright. I have one other thought here. Um, Not to make everything about sex, but

Laurel: here comes the de the, the degenerate

Laurel: Deam.

Laurel: Oh my God. Put that on the soundboard,

Daniel: the name.

Laurel: It's gonna

Daniel: stick around. Um,

Daniel: what would this movie, how would this movie be different if she had ever had a physical relationship with Hay song,

Laurel: It would've been a very different story had they had some kind of relationship.

Laurel: Sexual or even just like a more realized romantic relationship. Than not even like actually getting to like broach that relationship at all. Because you can just further, there's just so much more to imagine and pedestal about something that never was pedestal. Yeah.

Michelle: Pedestal. Just

Daniel: something.

Daniel: Yeah. It's that's almost as bad as uh, um, uh, artificial.

Daniel: Yeah. But actually

Michelle: speaking of if they have sex, it just completely changes the dynamic.

Michelle: I feel like monogamy culture, like that's just the way it is. Yeah. And you know, this isn't to say that all non-monogamous people have a very casual relationship with sex, but I think it's more common for it to not be like so sacred and Yeah. Again, yeah. because we've touched genitals, that means we're just bonded in a way that is completely different than prior to when we touch genitals.

Michelle: Um, And it's like, it's just uh, yeah. It's just bump and flesh.

Daniel: I think I was thinking about it specifically in this context of monogamy, that it was what allowed to be their chaste was what allowed the film to be as Polly as it was.

Daniel: In that they could have this love relationship. It was kind of acknowledged by all and accepted by her husband, accepted in their relationship to a degree because it was so chaste and unrealized and impossible and overseas

Daniel: like, yeah,

yeah, Yeah.

Daniel: So yeah, it could be a little bit of a like emotional poly vacation for the monogamous mind.

Laurel: Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel: All

Nichole: right.

Daniel: Nicole is looking at her. Sorry, timepiece. Sorry. It happens every time

Laurel: by

Nichole: timepiece.

Laurel: Last question. Michelle has nothing to do with anything. How do you feel about Cephalopods?

Michelle: I love them.

Laurel: I know, I know. The tattoos.

Michelle: Yeah. Like they don't, I'm not, people are like, oh, are you super into marine biology?

Michelle: No, I think they just look cool. They just look cool. I think they just lend themselves really well to tattoos because they're very flowy and to me, they just are a reminder of like things that have been here long before us, and hopefully things that will be here long after us too. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Daniel: Cephalopods will rule the planet. Yeah. As soon as this civilization collapses, I, for one, welcome our new cepa

Michelle: awards. Or they'll go back to just living peacefully with the rest of their ecosystem. Yeah. They'll just be like, not try to conquer it, actually. Just keep it balanced

Daniel: And just chill. And just float along.

Daniel: Exactly. Just float

Laurel: along.

Daniel: Yeah.

Nichole: Michelle. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank

Laurel: you. True.

Nichole: Like you are the first guest that we've had in person. Yeah. It's an honor. So thank you so much for coming down to our weird eighties ladies basement and dealing with the dogs, greeting you. Oh, no, they were good. Yeah, that's fine.

Nichole: If you'd like people to follow you, where can they follow you?

Daniel: You wanna plug yourself?

Nichole: Yeah. All right. Here's the plug.

Michelle: Yeah. Like we said, before I go by polyamorous or Asian, I'm just on Instagram. I'm not a multi-platform queen. I can't do that. So yeah, I do peer support sessions. I talk about polyamory mixed with politics.

Michelle: And then I also share a lot of dirty deets about my life.

Daniel: That's what I'm there for.

Michelle: The dirty, dirty degenerate.

Michelle: Yes.